Johnny_Butane

Positron says it worked properly. A few people just didn't like it.

A small sample in fact. Most players weren't even given a chance to see it, let alone given the chance to give their opinions on if it was good enough.

I have to laugh at Positron's hypocrisy. In the past they've had no problems allowing powers to exist that had "limited use" and were deemed "bad" by players. Hand Clap anyone? We had an entire thread about the worst powers in the game not that long ago filled with examples.

They don't do anything about those powers, but now suddenly their questionable standards of quality has them push the sole reason quite of a few people even bought GR back to the Fall? Right.

When AE got pushed back it was because as a community we were informed about what it wouldn't contain and many suggested that it be delayed so it could be released with a full list of features. We were given the facts and people voted with their replies. In this case they only gave the facts to a select few and held a vote in secret.

People prepaid in good faith with the reasonable expectation that on the release date, GR would have the features they paid for. It's not unreasonable to assume that some, even many, would not have given up their money so early if they had known that what they paid for would not be ready for some months after the release date for the product.



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It's almost as if they baited you with something you wanted and then switched it out at the last minute.



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There is no NDA.

They only ever ask you to be confidential. Eg. from a previous beta test:


First, that is not a Non Disclosure Agreement. Secondly, you never agree to it; there's no place to sign or even check an 'I Acknowledge' box.

It is a simple personal request that you not talk about what you see, and they cannot enforce it beyond having you deemed ineligible for future testing invites.

I've signed a number of real NDAs and they usually multiple page documents that require a faxed signature at the very least.

NDAs are commonly used to protect trade secrets from the competition. At this stage in the beta, the devs aren't really that concerned about that; the information is already 'in the wild' and outside of their studio.

At this point the request for confidentiality is more of a PR concern. They don't want the community getting whipped into a frenzy over something that's going to be fixed or changed before it goes live.


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That's because the devs have a double standard for the design of the ATs. As you said, there are many more avenues to more survivability and fewer to more damage. It's easy for all of the ATs to increase their survivability, including the AT that gains the least from pursuing more.

You assume everyone who plays a Tanker enjoys it, does so of their own free will and that power set exclusivity and lack of a better alternative don't factor into the equation.


The very ATs you seem to view as protecting are exploiting you. You are used to farm IOs so they can construct a build so they no longer need a tank and can do all the things you talk about in your first paragraph that Tankers are denied.

You are not a tank, you are a tractor being put to work on a farm to perpetuate the cycle of exploitation and allow the continued marginalization of the Tanker AT.



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Seriously, when I read this, tears of laughter, followed by tears of anguish.



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If it makes you feel any better, I think the design that renders our heroes 1/8th all of the signature characters is a joke.


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The relevance is right in the comic.

Good super heroes team up to deal with stuff like meteors. They don't get together to curbstomp Rainbow Raider, Arbiter Sands or Black Scorpion's sidekick.

It's just as lame having player villains have to do the same to the NPC heroes


It cheapens our characters and reinforces the fact that we're 4th string, sitting well below not only the Phalanx and Recluse's Inner Circle, but their sidekicks as well, and even below nobodies like Arbiter Sands and Shadow Spider.



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This is a confirmation. Until this point, one could infer that since GR wasn't even out of F&F beta at the begining of June, a mid July release was unlikely. A regular issue gets around a month of player beta testing, I'd hope an expansion would get at least two.

Even July was a push back from an erlier date. They all but said at HeroCon that they expected player beta to be underway by Q1 this year with a release around Q2.
They never say so on paper, plausible deniability and all, but anyone I know who talked to the devs left with that impression.

Honestly, I'm thinking mid August at this point. There's a wave of player testing going on right now, and I don't *think* there was another bout of invites sent out. With that kind of pace, while a release date the last week of July is possible, they're bound to hit a snag of some sort and delay things until August.


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It doesn't work like that, at least with what they've said on the subject. Unless they retcon everything with the Incarnate system. On the contrary in fact, in i12 they were continuing to suggest a common sorce for all powers, even for Natural origins. Even if you don't have 'powers' you're super powered by the power matrix in question. That plays even more into the stuff from the first novel. So, take from that what you will.

Again, thise has nothing to do with Batman not being able to fight his villains and Superman not being able to fight his villains. In CoH, they'd have to call up the JLA to fight Nite-Wing or Turtle Boy gone rogue.

I wouldn't pin any hopes on the Incarnate system until I saw what it was all about. They've said they're going to introduce more challenging content to keep up with making players more powerful. Based on history, rather than have us fight Thanos I expect that just means they're going to buff the stats on Toad and Stilt Man and throw more nameless mooks at us. Surprise! Arbiter Sands is a Double Incarnate!

:P



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On the STF they're bosses.

On the Khan TF they are EBs.

Before you make a joke about how it looks like their respec trial made them more powerful, no I don't like the inconsistency in those examples, either, which is why I brought up the TF.


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It's not only metagame.

No choice exists on TFs. That's part of what I'm saying. You can say you fought Silver Mantis all you like (as and EB in the RWZ arc), but the second you run a STF you're kicked down to D-list hero who can't take her. That's not behind the scenes. That's very much in your face like a flashing neon sign.

There's no reason that has to happen. I've discussed alternatives to that. The devs have occasionally used alternatives, but the old content still works that way and they keep going back to the AV well and busting our heroes down the pecking order in new content too.

You obvously didn't solo Recluse, because now he's taking on you and seven friends (and he's not hooked up to his god-mode towers). Face Recluse down solo in RV and see how far you get.

What I'm saying is three things:

-The pecking order (or tiers, whatever you want to call it) shouldn't be as mutable as it is due to the EB/AV conversion. That's the equivalent of bad, inconsistant writing.

-Player characters at the level cap should as a whole, be higher in the pecking order than they are currently. The flavour text says we're supposed to be peers of Recluse's patrons/the Freedom Phalanx, but the true mechanics and design bust us down to below the level of the Vindicator sidekicks or even C-listers like Arbiter Sands.

-The overall difficulty of the game need not change. But instead of bloating up an enemy's stats when he faces a team, the devs should get creative and provide challenge without depowering our heroes on TFs.



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Recluse isn't. He's an avatar for one. For that matter, who says a PC isn't? You made the claim you can be a Thor-like hero. Or does that only apply to outlier combos and builds?

Until a dev wants to use one on a TF and suddenly they become 8 times more powerful. Kind of like the Kahn TF.


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I'm saying, nobody minds when Batman dodges the Omega Beams or Cap takes on a giant robot with just his skills and shield. It just demonstrates how good they are. But having Thor or Wonder Woman not be able to fight the Green Goblin or Captain Cold is wrong.


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Shhh! All ATs are created equal. Some are more equal than others.

Besides, Scrappers pay for that ability to do team content solo by not being as sought after by teams...which they don't really need...

I mean that's fair and balanced, right?

:P


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Thor fights Frost Giants and other monsters. CoH has "rock giants" and "crystal giants".
You find me a WM/Inv or WM/WP Tanker that can solo one of the DE Crystal Titans, and then come back and tell me you can 'be Thor'.

Better yet, you find me an Nrg/Nrg or Nrg/Dev Blaster that can take down Kronos solo and then tell me you can be Iron Man.


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A better example is equating Galactus to Hamidon. Devouring Earth...World Devourer...hello?

Forget Thanos.

Recluse being buffed by the towers is like Red Skull empowered by the Cosmic Cube. Any other day, Captain America can win against him.

Not in this game. By this game's mechanics, Cap wouldn't be able to solo the actual Red Skull ever, just make due with a gimped EB robot simulation. Nor would he be able to fight Toad. Or Stilt Man. Or the Walrus.

There's a reason when the Red Skull shows up in the Avengers that be brings a team with him, or a secret weapon. He doesn't suddenly become eight times more powerful with no reason, unless the writer is terrible. Why should CoH have that kind of terrible writing?


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You seem to equate no powers with beinng inept and weak, and having powers with 'no challenge'. That's your hang up, not mine.

All three of those characters are capabable of dealing with the super villains they fight. Green Arrow doesn't call up the JLA to curbstomp Merlyn.

You say it's not fair to expect everyone to be Thor, but you think everyone should be dragged down to "Captain America's level".
That's your rationale.

I think Cap and Batman are fully capable of performing at the level as the rest of the JLA or Avengers. 40 years of stories agree. Having Cap and Bats fight giant robots and powered villains is impressive. Having Thor or Wonder Woman not be able to is sad.

I like to have challenges like, oh I dont know, fighting super villains...without them being gimped or me being 1/8 their power level and needing a team to face them regardless if they're Arbiter Sands, Ms. Liberty or Nemesis. And I don't want to be told "your AT/power set isn't allowed to do that because we decided being super strong or having a magic axe isn't as cool as having having negative energy punches or poisonous bile and some thugs".



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My question is, why is he comparing our heroes to Robin in the first place? The fact that he did just proves my point about this being City of Wanna-bes/Sidekicks.

Heck, you can't even say we're on par with the young heroes in the CoH universe. Ms. Liberty is the 'Robin' in this game. The rest of the Vindicators can be compared to the Titans. I'd like to see a PC MA/Inv Scrapper take her down without the EB gimping.

We aren't even the second string. We're below Robin and the Titans.
We're the Power Pack, at best.

The flavour text can tell you all it wants that you are the peer of Recluse's patrons. By extension, that would mean player heroes are supposed to be the peers of the Phalanx.

But that means jack because the very mechanics of the game say otherwise. I don't really care if a handful of outlier combos built for that specific task can take down some of the AVs in the game. That misses the point entirely.


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...that the majority of PCs are not able to win. The ones that are, are outlier power set combos and builds. That's my point. Player heroes generally don't measure up, not even to the C-squad. You can't take Ms. Liberty when she's on her A-game. You don't get the heroic 1v1 with the real super villain. You get the watered down version, or you get 8 heroes curbstomping Rainbow Raider.

The game isn't called Power Pack Online or City of Teen Titan Rejects. Playing 4th string to the Phalanx is BS. Better mission design and mechanics can fix that. If someone doesn't want that fixed, perhaps they'd be happier playing a fantasy MMO where they can be a nobody warrior and be commanded by villagers to gather rat tails.


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Yeah, I guess even if I get through him I'd still have to contend with his buddies Owl and Hypno Hustler.

0.o

I doubt the new system is going to bring all players up to the level of soloing the currently existing AVs. And like I said, even if it did, the devs would just invent a con above them called 'Ultra Villains' and make Leapfrog and Big Wheel that in new missions from now on, or go straight to Monster.


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First, EB is a watered down down version of the foe. The game says so. When you go to a Field Analyst/Fateweaver, you tell them:

"I would like to fight Arch-villains at their full strength, not as Elite Bosses"
or
"I don't want to fight Heroes at their full strength, I'd rather fight them as Elite Bosses"


This establishes that the true power of the enemy in question is as an AV. This applies not only to sidekicks like Ms. Liberty, but to C-list characters like Arbiter Sands as well. EB is the gimp version, and AV is canonical.

I don't think all of these character should be AVs at 50.

Why should Arbiter Sands get to be more powerful than a player character at 50? Why are most PCs 1/8th of just about every signature character? Why do we rate lower than C-listers?


The answer people will give is: we need content to challenge teams. Right?

Why does that have to take the form of an AV?

It doesn't. The reason it's like that now is because that's easy. It's also boring and uncreative.


How do I think it should work?

-Decide PCs at 50 are truly peers of the Phalanx and Recluse's Circle and set their stats accordingly so players can take them 1v1. Just call them Hero or Villain. No more EB to AV coning or conversion. Make it consistant and logical. No more uber powerful sidekicks or instances of the game's versions of Toad or Stilt Man taking on big groups of seasoned level 50 heroes

-If it's a character that actually should be better than lone PCs, that's fine. Recluse being buffed by the towers at the end of the STF is one thing. He's got a narrative-driven reason for being buffed out the whazoo. That doesn't extend to GW, BS or Mako who aren't hooked up to the towers. Nor to their sidekicks in the mission before that.

-In the case of teamed content, instead of inflating the enemies stats just to provide a challenge for a team, the devs should get creative.

Got a mission that calls for you to beat down Black Scorpion? Play the mission solo, he's there alone. If you attempt it teamed, he brings along an experimental giant robot to back him up.

If you have to fight Manticore on a team of six, have him spawn along with five other Phalanxers as back up or some Wyvern buddies.

There are even more options since they introduced the Doppelganger tech. That was a good addition to the PTF. Too bad stuff like that is in the minority and the older content still relies on encounters with enemies inflated up for teams, and that's likely to continue in new stuff too. Frankly there's no reason they should have to resort to always taking singular enemies that shouldn't be all that powerful and bloating them up to challenge teams. They've indentified alternatives, but they still keep going back to that original well and forcing PCs down.


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He says it was a join effort with Jay, so you must allocate props to both.

Even so, I'm hard pressed to find fault with the three of them.



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May have something to do with the "stance emotes" that have been mentioned, four of which will be in the collector's edition of Going Rogue.

I'm guessing they'll be like the stances in Champions Online that change how your character moves/idles. In CO they had a Beastial moving on all fours animation, an Average run/walk, a Heroic jog/walk, etc.

We've already got something like it with Ninja Run. This would be expanding on it with different themes.

Looking at the /em growl emote from the Mutant booster, they've been experimenting with characters going on all fours. I wouldn't be surprised if Animal Run wasn't on the way. IIRC, a while back didn't they post a job listing looking for people with experience animating non-human characters.


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This, punctuated with bouts of them watching E3 videos for games they're waiting for.

I don't expect much GR news this week. Perhaps another dev diary posted to MMORPG.com or the like.


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