Johnny_Butane

There's something I don't see in Praetoria that I see all over the Rogue Isles and a lesser extent, Paragon City:

Wasted polygons and textures.



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The devs set when a Closed Beta happens and decide who gets in and who doesn't. Marketing doesn't. If anything, marketing wants an Open Beta sooner rather than later to generate hype.

If Loyalty people are given access next week, or even next, that smacks of an Open Beta in CB clothing. In other words, they didn't award GR access to loyalty people, they just denied it longer to everyone else because otherwise a true OB would have been longer. Another way of saying it, is if the Loyalty program never happend, whenever they add Loyalty people is the point they would have just opened the beta to everyone anyways. That's how I see it as things stand.

It's his responsibility to make sure the feature is ready by the release date. The reason for it not being ready doesn't matter. It's his job to account for time needed to make changes based on player feedback. Maybe if they had started the beta earlier in the first place, or talked to players at the design stage, they would have had time to use the feedback they got.

Or the devs could have said "Lets promise the first of the end game content even though it's not ready, because we know theres a lot of people saying they're not into side switching or 1-20 content. If we run out of time, we cut it and we don't tell them about that until the last minute because by then we've got their money and there's not much they can do."

It's the fact they tricked people into preordering who otherwise wouldn't have if they had known any bit of the Incarnate system, their reason for getting GR, wouldn't arrive until the Fall. They also tricked people into keeping their accounts active at a time when the devs hadn't put out much content and people didn't have a reason to stick around, but did because it was implied it would get them Closed Beta access.

Good companies make money by pleasing their customers and having a good product or service. Bad companies make money with cash grabs and tricking people with bait and switch.

You say saints, I say snakes. I've found how the Loyalty program has turned out and the incident with the Incarnate Alpha slot to be very snakey indeed. While snakes can be good to keep the rats away, you run the risk of being bitten, which is what they've done here. From here out, I'm not about to carry them across any deep water if they ask.

I don't see how you can say this, and keep insisting that NC or PS can be trusted. One owns the other, they are the same.

I think it's because the devs are human, and all humans exibit favouritism. Some people try to avoid doing that though. Some don't.

Not exactly what I meant. I'm referring to times when the devs can't defend themsevles over something and suddenly they've gotta run or they just say "Well, we're right because we're the devs and you aint." It's like the Nuke in Rock, Paper, Scissors. "I'm taking the ball and going home."

I have no doubt they're in a scramble. But the cause of that is purely theirs and they've got the time to throw half a week away so the department heads can muck about at Comic Con. The fact that they're even trying to sell to that crowd makes me facepalm, because as far as I'm concerned, design-wise, 75% of the time they turn their backs on comic fans.

You can see, or not see, what you want. In the end, you're still left waiting.



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I make no secret about my feelings for how the devs run things. Stuff like this is exactly why I feel the way I do. They've already got our money, so they focus on people who can possibly give them more money. They take money for preorders and then change out features at the last minute. They say one thing, and do another. They listen to players, but only the ones they want to hear. When challenged, they hide in their tower.

I agree, at this point it is token access. I think GR will hit its release; they'll continue dropping features until it does. Regarding French information posts, I don't think it's necessarily a US vs EU issue, but I do believe some players get treated better than others.


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The GR testing has been happening on the European Test server.

Presumably, they've now put GR on the US test servers so there will be less lag when showing it at Comic Con this week.


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It depends on if the Incarnate slots work with normal level 50 content. Radios/paper missions, ITF, LRSF, STF, arcs, etc.

Positron was purposefully vague on that, refused to clarify and that troubles me deeply.


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And I'd like to add, that AFAIK it's never been the range in the set that's been a balance issue, but all the debuffs and to a lesser extent the toxic damage.

Put a star next to it until Kin Melee is revealed in full. That set it's supposedly fairly range-heavy too.

IMO, Insect Control or a Bug MM would be preferable to another weapon set at this time. I know people want staves, and I'm not necessarily against them being in the game, but it's a question of priorities.

If they hired three guys just to do staves, so one could be reasonably sure it wasn't pulling resources away from them making another set, and sold the fruits of that as an optional Booster, I'd say 'go team'. If they did the opposite of that, I'd complain, obviously. Hell, if they promised some actual super power sets, I'd animate the damn staves set myself on my own time for nothing and crank out the weapon models for customization.


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Good thing people with accounts in "bad standing" can't have friends, or multiple accounts.

Because if someone had a habit of aggravating the devs, not having all their eggs in one basket would be a smart move.


Honestly, I've always respected the mods and community reps. They've always been fair and professional to me, as opposed to trolling threads I make. Funny how that changes the way I react to people. I can't imagine they'd flag me as "bad standing", of their own volition at least.

Fact of the matter is, I haven't spoken to a mod in almost a year and the last time I spoke to a dev I was thanking Castle for looking into something, and I havn't been black listed from any other betas since then, so unless someone has a personal axe to grind...



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No, do you?

I know when the F&F phase ended and the first "player" tier began. I know when the release date is and I know how to do simple division.

I also know how to roll my tongue!


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Then, like I said, it's going to be really fun to watch when the rubber meets the road.

Obvously you haven't. You'd know if I was because I'm not exactly subtle and discreet with my feedback, am I?

With the search functions, it's pretty easy to guage how many are around and active compared to past betas, even if you factor in some people being invisible, especially if you're smart enough to try at different times. Plus the posts in the CB forums help.


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If this project was as big as they hyped, I'd hope by this point that pretty much everyone in the "waves" would be in, given the release date and their typical week of Open Beta(which given that this is an expansion and not an issue, should really be longer). I have a large enough sample of people who I know are and aren't in the beta at present to say that's not the case.

In other words, all I need to know at this point about the size of the CB is that it's 'not big enough' to support the hype and what people were expecting of GR. Either it's going to be the most untested, bug-ridden release they've had yet or the expansion is way smalller than anyone expected, which isn't too far fetched given the announcement this thread is about.

Either way, I've got popcorn to watch the fireworks.
Cheers.


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I suspect it's why they've kept the beta as small as they have, given the previously supposed size of the project. Optimists said over and over 'that can't be all there is, they must be holding back'.

Well, it's going to be ugly a month from now when the wheels (and talk ban) come off.
The suspense is terrible. I hope it will last.


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I agree. It's exactly as lame as telling someone to pretend Energy Blast is a power armor set.

What's more lame is still telling them to pretend with Energy Blast six years later when we now have five sets with bladed weapons. Six with counting claws.


The same reasons having two guns with Thug MMs wasn't good enough I guess.

Already gave a suggestion bringing up Shield Charge and Lightning Rod.

Here's another freebie. Jumpkick has your character jump without really jumping. Hail of Bullets has you flip and jump around like crazy. But you're not actually moving. They could easily do an attack where your character runs past an enemy several times in a blur, hitting them as they pass, similar to the infamous Flash vs Luthor fight from Justice League.

How many swords do people need? Is Tri-Blades going to be next?

Melee attack sets don't have some ranged attacks? Don't tell Hurl. Seriously, changed numbers aside, you can have a version of Hail of Bullets as the set's PBAoE, Empty Clips with a modified cone, Executioner's shot as a ST ranged attack and a reworked Suppressive Fire as a utility. The rest of the set you can fill out with sword attacks and Bob's your uncle.

Better give it a blanket and bottled water, it's going to be laying there for a while. Meanwhile, make way for the Tri-blade Halberd powerset! 50% more sword action than Dual Blades...on a stick!


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Superman doesn't punch 40% weaker than Batman. Done. Next.

OK, by that token there's a sword temp power you get in Croatoa. Cross your eyes. See, we didn't need Dual Blades.

Because Flurry is awesome, right? :P
Looking at his most popular tricks and fighting moves, one could easily build a Super Speed Melee set around them distict from MA. One only has to look at Mortal Kombat vs DC for inspiration. Even taking existing powers and tweaking the visiuals like Shield Charge or Lightning Rod. I'm sorry, IMO there's no excuse.

I see her more about the grappling than current SS and MA. She is Greek after all.

Invisible Plane = /em SitChair2 + new fly emote. Done.

Again, I don't care how popular NASCAR is.
:P


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-Power Armor characters. Energy Blast suits them about as well as Broadsword suits a ninja, but they put in a katana set all the same.

-Limb Shapeshifting ala Sandman, Carnage, Warblade. Completely doable in the engine. See Stone Fists.

-True speedsters like the Flash, Quicksilver, etc. Super Speed Melee was mentioned as a set the devs wanted to do once, but was buried by mundane weapon sets.

-Ironically, any character that uses both swords and a gun. I would have voted on a blended set long before having them add additional options for them separate.

-Dual whip characters like Conduit, Omega Red, Constrictor, Ivan Vanko. The fact that the whips are usualy energy based and retract into the character's arms solves the coiling and draw issues the devs found before they settled on fire whips for DS MMs.

-Probability/Luck manipulation like Scarlet Witch, Shamrock, Domino. Would make a nice buff/debuff set.


Yes, I'll admit weapon sets are easy, and the devs love their low hanging fruit. But considering the usual time between new power sets, I'm getting a little sick of the mundane and of gun/sword variations, which is what we've gotten a fairly large percentage of.


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There's room for debate on Tankers, so lets leave it at that. For this thread anyways.

Except for all those gadgets he has. Where can we get those wonderful toys?

So in other words, it's a stretch. Again I say: five different flavours of blades.

Whip? I would also say that while she does haver super strength, her fighting style would be as different from Superman or Batman's as Broadsword is from Katana, be we only get one flavour of SS, animations aside.

Yeah, Telekinesis would be so OP. A pink Repel would be so broken on a Tank. /sarcasm

Pets ala Spirit Sharks, etc. We'll get back to this after red side Tanker epics are announced.

There's a lot more 'kind-of-not-really's when you look at the Avengers, and the most popular super heroes in general. Far too many that needed to be addressed before we required more sword and gun variations.

Let's not. There are dozens of Eastern MMOs that are made to cover that ground, just as there are HUNDREDS of fantasy MMOs with all kinds of swords. Just because someone likes kaiju and Lord of the Rings, and you can find some overlap between them and the JLA and other super hero comics, doesn't mean a game about comic book super heroes needs to feature lots of elements from those other genres extensively.

Heroes Unlimited =/= Rifts . Even though the latter can support the former, someone who buys into the first doesn't necessarily want all the elements of the second. If the devs want to make a grab bag game of whatever they genres they feel like, they shouldn't be touting CoH as a comic book super hero MMO and drawing comparasons to the Superfreinds.


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I heard that too. I want to say it was from a Massively interview or the recent QA session, but I can't remember for sure.

You wont see me object to themed costume sets.

We get costume bits much more often than new power sets, and obviously there's far more costume part combinations than power set combinations. When we get a new power set, it means it's going to be a while before we get another one, usually. When we get a Sports costume set, I can be reasonably sure it didn't edge out a new tights option.

The thing about costume parts, we've already got a lot that fit a ton of super hero concepts from pulp fiction mystery men to golden age icons to the worst of Liefeld right to modern day.

But we don't even have power sets (or ATs in some cases) that properly cover the lineups of the popular incarnations of the JLA and Avengers, let alone the Superfriends as Posi claimed was the show he loved as a kid.

We've got lots of bladed weapon sets though, more than some fantasy MMOs that are supposed to be all about swords, and lots of firearm and gun options, and while they can arguably fit in a super hero MMO, they've done so at the expense of getting more actual super powers that are undeniably suited to the genre. I like WoW Warlocks, Avatar the Last Airbender and John Woo movies as much as anyone. Doesn't mean I agree with some of the sets in GR for example.

Besides, the costume set may not even be about what we think it is:



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Yes, you can ignore them and no, you don't have to find a balance.

If you're working on Red Dead Redemption Online and a bunch of players show up demanding robots (because sci fi is more popular than Westerns nowadays), you don't freaking give them robots no matter how many of them ask. And you don't 'find a balance' by shoving in steampunk mechanical spiders either.

And then you don't put out a ViDoc saying how much you loved spaghetti westerns growing up and say that your mechanical spider-filled MMO is a tribute to them.

Except when they pick brown-nosers who are adept at pushing their own desires and agendas and keeping it hidden. Everyone has an agenda they're pushing, other people are at least upfront about it and don't suck up to the devs to get what they want.

You won't find it so funny when it becomes prophetic. Unless of course you really like NASCAR, in which case you wont mind at all. Personally, I'm hoping they add a NFL-themed power set. Because I really loved the Superpro comic from Marvel, not because I secretly want to be playing a Madden MMO instead. The fact there was a football comic book breifly once proves that it belongs in a comic super hero MMO, you see.



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I'm pointing out how much of a hypocrite Positron is by allowing bad powers to exist, but then pulling a feature people paid for without even asking their feedback. They're only commited to quality when it suits them and when it gives them an excuse to push something back and still get some fast cash up front with their lure.

Positron didn't get demoted. He split himself off to head a team that's designing the Incarnate system, and likely is laying the design framework for CoH 2. He moved sideways, not down, and brought WW and and others up.


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Yeah, like some people want this to be a fun comic book super hero hero game. Others want this game to be just like every other fantasy MMO or shooter and have five different blade power sets, five different sets with firearms and will vote down sets with actual super powers because, despite playing this game, they don't actually like super heores or comics, but they really wish The Matrix Online was still going.

The developers should be a little better at ignoring the latter, even if they outnumber the former, lest they forget the game they're working on.

I don't really care if the majority of players want a Night Elf EAT or to fight with THREE swords at once. I think there are times the devs should override the majority. IMO, they've got a poor track record of knowing when to listen and who to listen to.

They should always give players, all players, a chance to have their say; unlike this incident where they only let a few they handpicked do so. But they also need to know when to adhere to a strong design direction, and that's something they lack now, IMO or at least are lacking one that's faithful to the genre the claim to be working in.

Otherwise it's only a matter of time before the devs decide the majority of players really like NASCAR and they funnel a bunch of resources into putting a track in every zone.


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Actually, they listened to a select group of players they handpicked.
They didn't let the community as a whole have a chance to give feedback.

Again, I ask: The devs have had no problems in the past with undesirable, "limited use" powers players don't like. Group Fly, Hand Clap, Whirlwind, Flurry, Temperature Protection, etc. Why the sudden desire to listen to players now, and have powers that are cool and fun?

After six years they should have a pretty good idea of what player expectations and desires are. That should have given them a clear picture of how players would react to the Alpha slot they put up on test long before it even got off the white board stage. Way before Posi formed his little 'strike team', players have been very vocal about what they expected from Inccarnates. The feedback the devs got on Test shouldn't have been surprising and their initial design shouldn't have been so far off the mark.

Therefore, I'm forced to conclude the devs never really intended to release the Alpha slot with GR because they expected it to get the thumbs down and knew that would give them an excuse to "push it back" to when they intended to release it all along. They just used the Alpha tease as a lure to get money up front from people who otherwise would have passed on GR until the late Fall or whenever they shove out i19.


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Oh, you see that's why they never give concrete release dates (they just imply them by saying things like "look forward to testing GR in Q2 2010!").

Of course, since they can't even deliver the whole product they promised on the release date when they do give it, I don't see why they didn't give a date before and just handwave it off like they're doing now.


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Has that been confirmed yet? That you can't use Incarnate abilities in typical level 50 content?



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