Johnny_Butane

Did you never hear about City of Hero? The failed Korean port of the game?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-soNvI6-xnc




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Now how the fark am I supposed to browbeat the Guild Wars 2 developers into giving weaponless Guardians and Warriors the ability to fly?


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I got it before this happened. I don't play a lot of fantasy and I don't especially care for it, but I can enjoy just about anything that's well executed. That is it. It's a very "furnished" game as far as content design goes. It's got voice overs and cut scene animation. If there wasn't hundreds of others in the same sub genre, it'd be a very good game.

Regarding the "random" world events: there as lot fewer than they let on. And let me put it this way; people here got sick of Rikti invasions happening 24/7 on those weekends. Imagine if those invasions could happen anywhere, even inside Wentworths, and they don't care you went AFK in a 'safe' area to bio. And it was all day every day forever.


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Or rather, PW wanted to renew it...for an exorbitant fee and with a brutal new contract.

That does however paint things in another light.

It may be just me trying to find a silver lining...or all the pills I just took to feel numb, but this could actually be the push needed for CoH 2 to happen.

On an engine they own, or at least one that's not owned by their competitors and without worrying that the first game still being around would split the player base.

I mean, if the truth this was all corporate politics and if CoH was still going strong despite its age, was still well-loved, still had a dedicated community and Freedom was a success, they'd be stupid NOT to consider a follow up because no matter what, there's a vacuum for a good super hero MMO now and the IP still has strength.



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You know, it's funny. I actually went to a Tanker Tuesday the other week and nobody said jack. Now you see what happens.



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That's not what you said. You said "[I would] retcon the Patrons/Phalanx into proper builds of ATs in game so they can be used as examples."

The Patrons and Phalanx characters do not conform to to the current AT power sets in this game so in order to retcon them into that, as you said you want to do, you would need to remove the powers that don't fit the AT system, thus limiting them to the Primary, Secondary and Epic pools that we have currently. In addition to that, some Patrons/Phalanx have powers from multiple primaries and secondaries. For example, Back Alley Brawler has both Energy Melee and Super Strength attacks. So in order to "retcon him into a proper build of an AT" he would have to lose some of those attacks.


What I think you may have meant, based on your latest reply, is that you would like to see more Epic Pools made that compliment the same concept as every AT's primary and secondary. A Psionic Mastery Epic pool for Scrappers, for example, to compliment the upcoming Psionic Melee set as a Primary and Willpower as a Secondary? But how does that relate to the Patrons and Phalanx?


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So you would limit the developers' concept choices in how they can design characters in the hopes we would have one less excuse for wanting our own concepts to be similarly realized?

I think that's kind of...backwards, to put it politely.

I can only speak for myself, but I want my concepts because they are my concepts. If I want an Inv/EM Tanker that can also fire psionic blasts, it's not because the Honoree exists on the LGTF.


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No, it's not, but Zwillinger and Synapse said as recently as last week's Coffee Talk about how important allowing players to realize their concept.

What I'm on about is not "we have to have all the pieces now at level 6", it's about "you're not currently allowed any of these pieces period (because the sets don't exist despite the fact we have the powers in game already to make them) and the ones you do get don't come until 35+, after you're already more than half way into your character's career for no good reason".

I never said they were only because of a lack of understanding and to prevent players who didn't know better from gimping themselves.

But the fact is, some of the restrictions that do stand are just silly and nonsensical. The fact that we don't have to worry as much now about the training wheel aspect means we could probably get away with softening or removing those restrictions in many cases.


Now you're the one using hyperbole and scare tactics.


I never said the goal of the game should be that. I've always said players should be able to realize their concept within reason. A Blaster being able to take Unstoppable and Elude and Hibernate with their now crashless nuke at level 4 isn't reasonable by anyone's reckoning. But allowing a Scrapper to get Dual Wield and Bullet Rain at all and a Tanker to not have to wait 35 levels for Laser Beam Eyes or Fire Blast is reasonable to me.


I agree. I feel there is much room to to give some more ground to concept without throwing balance and good gaming out the window.



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You assume Humans, Kryptonians and other 'humanoid' races in the DC universe weren't all engineered to develop along specific lines by a race that came before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardians_of_the_Universe



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No, what I'm proposing is to allow players access to the same powers and kinds of powers they are already allowed now with their epics/patrons, but earlier where it is possible and reasonable, spread out over the course of the character's life instead of being all lumped in the mid 30s and up regardless if the power is "too powerful" or not. It's probably not going to break the game for a Tanker to get Laser Beam Eyes at level 10, nor is for a Blaster to get Temp Inulnerability before 35.

They would be no more identical than a Fire/Fire/Force Blaster at 50 is to an Invul/Fire/Pyre Tanker at 50 is now.


Correct. The Ancillary/Epic/Patron powers. Whatever you want to call them. In addition to that, making more of them to cover other concepts. Example: Firearms Mastery for Scrappers.

Which is why I acknowledged that the powers would also have to be re-ordered where necessary.

Which is also part of my point. PFF is arguably a much more potent power on a Blaster than say Temp Invulnerability. Why should TI come later and why should you have to wait until the 40's to get it for that matter when the power just isn't that powerful to warrant that? Static Discharge is another power that doesn't exactly warrant not being able to get until 35 (although I have no personal experience with it, I'm just going by your sentiment and a quick glance at Mid's).



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Well, take a look at what I proposed in my edited post before this one. I don't think it would add a lot more complication to what's there already.

But, besides the point, I'll restate what I said in the OP: At this point in the game's life we have a thriving, experienced, knowledgeable and helpful community and enough forward inertia that we're pretty hard to kill. Playing any MMO well involves learning the systems. Anyone wondering if they should take Fire Blast or Unyielding at level 10 need only ask in Broadcast, on the forums or someone on the next team they join.



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The fact that we're told melee ATs can't have certain ranged attacks, especially in the early levels, because it would imbalance the game, yet they're allowed equivalent ranged attacks without giving anything up, and that hasn't harmed the game at all is the point.

Except in most cases there's nothing stopping anyone from getting them again and having them indefinitely. That fact they have charges is largely relevant because.

In fact, them being temp powers and not even requiring you to spend a power pick and being allowed to have them all at once is probably more unbalancing than if you just let a Scrapper just take a power like Laser Beam Eyes or Fire Blast at level 8.

You can't say "you're not allowed to spend a power pick and enhancement slots on Lightning Bolt on a Scrapper that would break the game" and then sell them EMP Glove for a pittance and let them use Nemesis Staff, Blackwand and dozens of other temp ranged attacks until the cows come home.


This is what I propose:

Take the existing epic pools/patron pools. Rather than treat them as 'epic powers' that we can only take in the 40s they become essentially a tertiary power set for the character. We expand on the number of powers in them. Maybe not a full 9 powers but maybe 6 in each, one more than they have now. We re-order the powers as needed and allow players to take them as early as is reasonable. What's reasonable? Ice Storm for a Brute with Arctic Mastery for example, wouldn't be available before level 20 because ATs that get that power in their Secondary power set don't get it until 20. But ranged ATs get the attack Ice Blast in their secondary at level 2, so on a Brute it wouldn't be unreasonable for them to be able to get it at level 8 or 10.

Take Blaze Mastery for Scrappers for example.

Fire Blast around level 10
Ring of Fire or Char around level 14
Fire Ball and some new power for 22
Melt Armor at level 41

Again, I'm just pulling numbers here that don't (off the top of my head) conflict or come before the level other ATs get those powers in their Primary or Secondary. You get the idea.

After that's done, we make more of these pools that cover other concepts. We have Firearm Mastery for Scrappers that contains Dual Pistols attacks and related powers. Water Mastery for Controllers. Etc.

It's not a freeform system, but it would have more freedom than we have currently and allow people to realize their concept without waiting until the mid 30's for a flavour power that isn't even that great. A Tanker isn't going to be breaking the game with Laser Beam Eyes at level 10.


And the patron pools and patron arcs: Would people really complain if they separated the two and made the patron pools just regular epic pools and had the patron arcs award a temp power or something? I mean, complain more than anyone complains about any other change around here, even if its a huge QoL improvement.



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Except we already allow, for example, Scrappers or Tankers to get many ranged attacks, of varying degrees of potency, even very early in their lives, and the game didn't crumble to the ground.

Nemesis Staff, Blackwand, Chaingun, EMP Glove and many many more.
And you can have all of them at once, for the most part.

So why then should a Scrapper have to wait until level 41 for Laser Beam Eyes, which is admittedly not that great of an attack? Why should that same Scrapper be allowed Fire Ball, but Bullet Rain is off limits?

The fact that we let Blasters get Hibernate, Temp Invulnerability or Force of Nature at all but wag a finger at them and tell them "but not until your 40s" doesn't make a lick of sense either.

The lion's share of powers (that aren't native to their AT) that people want to realize their concepts are already in the game. We just force them to wait until their character is almost 50 to have what usually amounts to a flavour power, or deny them the power they want while allowing them to have mechanically comparable equivalents from other concepts. We let a Brute have 15 different medium damage ranged attack temp/vet powers they can have by level 10, but tell them Dual Wield, Mental Blast or Lightning Bolt that would actually cost them a power pick are off limits.


Balance is all well and good, but the game already allows for some powers while inconsistently and hypocritically not allowing others of comparable or even less worth. And it dictates when you can have powers, but not in any logical or rational manner, certainly not based on how potent they are.


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It doesn't. Not from anything I've seen. It brings the other Blaster secondaries up to where Mental is already in terms of staying power. Mental is a very good set, but still nowhere near a substitute for being a Scrapper. I still find new and stimulating ways to face plant with my Psi/MM on Live and on the i24 Beta server. A little bit a regen is nice, but it still doesn't stop a Titan Weapon Boss to the face or a Longbow EB.


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Indeed, that is a valid point that there are other ways that a game can encourage teaming and social interaction without half-crippling ATs to force teaming. Also true that teaming isn't the only form of social interaction to be had; even players soloing chat in channels, on the forums, in Teamspeak and interact with others outside of missions.


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I wanted to say 'a psionic blast' but...we're not supposed to know about that yet. Maybe.

Prior to i24, Boxing and Kick were quite terrible and none of those powers look much like Martial Arts.


If you follow that line of logic, why play the game at all? Just sit in a chair and imagine a complete super hero experience tailored exactly how you want it. With imaginary microtransactions and imaginary Community Coffee Talks that feature an ever growing gallery of imaginary hats and tangents.


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His name is Shazam now. :|
DC officially changed it because a lot of non-comic fans think that was his name anyways.

The only Captain Marvel currently is Carol Danvers from Marvel.



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I know you're desperately trying to flip my "the game should be more like comics" mantra around to bite me, but I've actually wanted a 'trickster'/Shgoratchx type character in the game for a long time. We used to have the Gamester who put all those presents all over the place every Winter Event but we never knew much about his nature (was he just a guy like the Trickster or was he an 8th dimensional genie like Thunderbolt?) and they never did anything with him.

Again, your trying to shock me but meta like this just turns me on. I loved it in Arkham Asylum when the Scarecrow made it look like the game crashed. Then put you into an unwinnable situation and killed you.

If I was doing my daily hero tips and suddenly I was whisked off to space where a supreme being in a white disco suit threw me into Time Gladiator for his own amusement, I'd be "rock on!"




In other words:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...ThreatBackfire




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We have that already. It's called an "Incarnate Trial".

EDIT: Not to mention Terra, the entire Praetoria arc, the aforementioned SSA 1, SSA 2 (hardly a spoiler), every single high level villain arc ever...


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Yet nobody complained about the climax of Dark Astoria. Or SSA1p7.

Those missions existing in no way took away from all of the missions where the enemy are the original Knives or Malta or just thugs with SMGs. Nobody twisted your arm and forced your Kat/WP to fight Mot, nor should the game force someone else's flying brick to fight blue cowboys and ninjas by virtue of the fact that that there were no alternatives to that provided in the content and that stuff like Mot and Ruluwade are just now starting to appear in game. As long as you provide enough content for both extremes, cosmic and street level, there is absolutely no problem with having both in the same game. And even when you have a situation like we do already, with someone being able to solo Kraken or Kronos, that doesn't affect you putting together a SO'd team to do the same.

But none of that has anything to do with the fact that just because a character has guns, they're not allowed to know martial arts in this game. And because someone has Invulnerability, they're not allowed to be able to fire a magic blast. That was true at least until i24. Do people now see my point? Regardless, as long as the developers continue on the same path they have been, I'm happy. I think they could and should further that path by continuing to create more power pools and more epic pools and making the existing ones deeper. I'm also for softening the restrictions on the existing ones such as making them available earlier in a character's life (Ask yourself: really, why does a Scrapper need to wait until their 40's for Laser Beam Eyes? I mean come on) and perhaps even dropping some of the sillier prerequisites like needing Kick/Punch even if you just want Tough+Weave.


Sir, you win the Reading Comprehension Award for today. +1 gold star.


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I disagree. Most are.
Every single character in the Avengers movie for example.

There was nobody on the team in that movie that wasn't good at fighting, surviving and every single one was a DPSer. Neither of the two baddass normal ranged attack users, Mr. Arrow and Ms. Dual Pistols, fell on their face or were unable to to stand on their own in the battle. They were not glass cannons by any means. Indeed she is clearly as good a fighter as any Scrapper and even 'tanked' for Mr. Shield at one point, IIRC. Neither of the team's bricks were poor fighters. Tony Snark, in the most egregious example of flouting the restrictions this game was built around, is both a ranged attacker and is explicitly armoured. They don't have the same crippling deficiencies that were designed into the AT and powers system originally (that I have to again point out the current developers are slowly getting away from, thankfully) and obviously most people didn't find them boring.



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It depends on how narrowly you define support. There's plenty of heroes offering leadership buffs. Batman scares the Hell out of most lower level mooks enough that can be considered a debuff in itself. Spider-Man's taunt is a massive -ToHit debuff among other effects.

I don't disagree with you about healers at all.


Well, back then we didn't have the Absorb mechanic which in hindsight would have been ideal for FF. That or a Repel-style end drain the more damage the shield takes.


Iceman has always used ice to shield himself and I can think of a few instances where he encased someone for protection but yes, it's rare. I think that's more a case that Cold Domination and Thermal Radiation are really "out there" conceptually and the devs were really reaching when they designed them.



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