Jack_Bones

Ineed, perhaps it is the ranged based MM builds that are giving the impression of easy PvE. Forming a battle line and hosing down groups is very cool. Maybe the way that feels to some people gives the impression of ease.

I also feel that we have become so twisted and mistrustful in online communities that aside of the petty and idiotic trolls making ill thought comments and posts any time something is fun or successfull we become convinced that it will be taken from us.

I suspect this comes from early door games like EQ which relied heavily on time sink, bragging rights and aquiring status based equipment. I do not think that CoV is like that.

There is also no point looking at the way CoH works in PvE to how CoH works as they are.....distinct games purchasable and playable standalone. The only intersection being PvP and we all know how Masterminds are faring in that arena

This has been a fairly good thread, good natured and for the most part intelligent. Lets try to just enjoy the game and if they change something try to have some trust that they are doing the right thing. Games have come a long way since EQ and its sometimes game sweeping changes.

But then personally I think playing the game as though your a mathematical actuary is faintly retarded and the Enhancement Diversification is one of their best moves.

Ok, Lets get this in perspective. You have 2 genin to control. Your using Trick Arrow.

First off, using the advanced pet binds you can get your genin to use range attacks only by staying at medium to long range (Im basing this on having used upgrade) and doing a rythmic press of keys 7 (attack) and 8 (follow). If you do that they will stand on the spot and just use ranged which at your level is up to 15 damage on a snap shot and about 10 off a shuriken. This still isnt as good as their melee though it just allows you to shoot up [censored] without agroing more.

If you use standard commands you will always find that one genin goes in for the kill and takes the whole agro and thus will die unless you can inspiration it to health or take medicine which is very good at keeping them alive.

The jounin are much much harder but obviously the mobs get harder too. Trick arrow simply requires different pool powers. Dont give up on it. just adapt.

My main is Ninja/Dark at lvl 30. Its a lot of fun and a suucessful set. But I was also intrigued by trick arrow so I have created a Ninja/Trick Arrow whish is currently at lvl 10.

The Ninja set is the hardest to duo with trick arrow has neither set has a heal on it. So I have taken Aid Other on medicine which up to press works fine, 2 slotted with heal I get a 57 heal with a fairly quick regen that I have no problems getting off in combat.

In trick arrow itself I am using entangle which is excellent, really fast refresh and with a little minion jiggery pokery I can get my ninja to just stand firing bows at entangled mobs. Glue arrow is awesome but has far too long a refresh even 3 slotted with recharge I find myself only using it in boss or big fights, its almost like I cant justify it for a 2 mob fight.

Last one I took at 10 was Ice arrow, which im in two minds about. It has a slow recharge again so multiple applications to hold a boss is nigh impossible and the hold doesnt seem to last long, maybe that will change when I slot it some. I dont know the specifics of Flash arrow as I havent taken it yet.

Overall though I found it good fun being a bow bunny using the Ninja Aimed Shot and all the tricks on the TA set.

Ok, I managed to get a few tests in before patch.

Each attack was a full compliment of minions so 3 genin, 2 jounin and 1 oni sent at range to attack the mob. I'm lvl 30.

First lot were Longbow.

28 Lieutenant Nullifier.

no deaths, 40 seconds to kill.

29 Lieutenant Nullifier

2 Genin Dead, 1 jounin dead, 1.20 seconds to kill

29 Warden Boss

All Minions Dead at 2.45 seconds, Warden on low health but a winner.

Server Just went down so couldn't do much more.

Lets say it takes me 1.30 seconds to recover from casting summon Jounin and Summon Genin and then training them to be ready to move on. 3 Mins to kill a single lieutenant 1 level below me is not a good ratio.

Now of course were I in there assisting it would all change as I would be healing. But I think sending your minions at long distance in 'virtual safety' is not an effective way to play. I will run some better tests when I get back on and there is more than 5 mins to jump about looking for mobs to fight.

When your talking about taking on a couple of even to +1 level mobs to be fair, there is no risk for more or less any archetype, you just run if it gets hairy and most players know when thats the case.

When you send your pets off to kill and your way back not even in supremecy range...well most other AT's can kill those mobs in the same time frame anyway.

And besides, if even one of your pets dies, it doesnt reduce the casting cost of the summon. If 2 die or maybe all your tier one and a single tier 2...your burning practically a whole bar of end just to bring em back for the next group of even level mobs.

I'm lvl 30, I haven't solo'd at this level range at all but Im guessing that my mobs couldnt do it on their own, but I will test it out for you as soon as the pacth is done.

Agreed with Maxi...I took Fearsome Stare out of curiosity more than anything because poeople said on the boards it was rubbish.

Quite the opposite. It has a fairly slowishy recharge but I can usually pull 2 off in a fight. Its cone is really really long, not sure if it is narrower than a normal one though I haven't noticed.

Its effect does a number of things. The fear makes the mob just stand still and cower unless they take a hit in which case they can hit back once, then they go back to cower. Secondly it has -ACC on it.

I have been using it like this. Smokeflash Oni, send him to target point for Cone of Fire to get most targets. Order Attack and watch massive crit cone occur. Follow in, and fearsome stare from around the same point. Sending all the mobs into cower as my ninja begin to single attack the group one by one.

its also good for freezing an ambush in its tracks if your still occupied with mobs in front of you.

I won't even dignify this thread with a reply.


Oh, [censored], I just did.

I have to agree strongly with LostNinja here, Sitting back and doing nothing is a complete misinterpretation of the AT.

The reason it describes Masterminds as difficult in the creation description is because of the control you need to excert over minions to make them effective.

If I were to just leave my ninja on aggressive and press attack my target when I saw a mob then stay well back out of the way and watch, I would be still under lvl 10 and failing missins on villainous.

In a given fight I am excerting constant control over minion placement, reaquiring targets and ensuring they go into melee. This is inconjunction with keeping them healed and debuffing anochor mobs which I try to keep alive while we clear spawns. Add to this the fact that I'm made of tissue paper and in constant danger whilst in the midst of this chaos.

The Mastermind is certainly NOT an autopilot AT.

I keep seeing this appear in various threads, mainly on the US boards though to be fair.

Constant shouts of how the AI needs changing to this or that because the henchmen dont do certain attacks or won't go into melee rather when they want them to (obviously Ninja and Undead).

What are people's experiences here ? I'bve noticed these boards are somewhat more moderate than the US ones.

Personally I can make my Ninja do what the hell I want, including stay solely at range and fire bows for the entire combat. I have no issues at all with making them melee, making them stay at range or making the Oni cone crit whole mobs.

All I have to say is get advanced pet commands (I again bow to whomsoever wrote them).

Thoughts anyone ?

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Can I ask how many alts you've played. Not being sarky or anything, just asking over your "Levelling is easy" comment. Cos it's not for a lot of ATs. My Flame Tank is currently 27 and finds it hard going. My Spines / Dark scrapper is only 12 and again its difficult for him.


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I've played most CoH AT's up to the mid 20's (exceot tank) and a Defender to 38 before I switched to a different game for a while.

CoV, I've got a 30 Mastermind Ninja/Dark a 12 Mastermind Ninja/Trick Arrow (which im testing out) a 10 Mastermind Zombie/Poisons a 17 Stalker Ninja Blade/Ninjitsu and a 12 Brute Strength/Invuln.

So yeah I've played quite a few. Each AT has different styles of how it can level on its own...cos were talking Solo here only, as per my other comment if your in a group your all leveling at the same time.

With my stalker its Assassin Strike and run if the spawn is too big, My Brute, hope that my rage gets up enough. My defender would just sniper, control, kill a few and run then return. I never felt like any one of my characters was overtly more powerful than any other.

My stalker and Brute certainly use rest more than my Mastermind but then they dont have to stand at the door of a mission and regen a full bar of end before they start either.

Not all Masterminds can heal. Im testing this out with Trick Arrow and Ninja right now. Only poisons and dark have direct person heals. traps has the beacon and trick arrow has none. Only Robots and Mercs have primary heals for their Pets with repair bot and repair skill and Merc with Medic. Ninja has none and Undead have siphon.

To concede a point here. I DO think that certain configs of MM are no doubt easier to play than others, Robots and Forcefields come to mind here. But time and time again you will find people who say they cant play a scrapper for love nor money but they can play a blaster. Maybe one of the MM configs is just more universally acceptable to play than others.

Its kinda wierd, but everyone in my group seems to be leveling at the same speed as me ? And when I group Masterminds are not the only people my level, theres some Brutes, some Dominators even some Corruptors, not sure about the stalkers you can never see em.

My Mastermind is lvl 30. Could I solo a ruthless mission which is what I play on ? not sure. probably not. I would thus drop my difficulty and eat through missions.

Leveling is easy for all AT's. CoH/CoV is built that way, you dont need to play with anyone really, just drop your difficulty and hop to it.

I just think its a touch premature that were planning a major overhaul of an AT thats only about a month old.

Especially when there is no obvious big flaw. Its just this 'feeling' that everyone is getting because they are good to play.

The other thing of course is Im fairly sure that not all masterminds are equal...they may well spend an issue looking at that balance rather than trying to change the whole AT.

Is robots/forcefield better than Ninja/Poisons ? is it just Robot and Merc guys wading through missions and making it look easy ?

That would be overpowered according to the game designers of course, Players just create too much static these days. Hell, read the US boards, they are embarrasing.

Masterminds are consistent, they dont have some giant alpha strike like blasters used to and Stalkers do now, they dont have a summit point where they suddenly become supreme like dominators or rage for brutes.

People are mixing consistency up with potency I think.

Im kinda a little suprised that people seem to have convinced themselves that Masterminds are over powered with no mention from Devs that it is the case and are basing it on the fact that they are fun to play and are successful when they fight.

Then to top it off, your coming up with suggestions on how we can be nerfed in response to the nerf that has been decided is on its way.

All a little premature if you ask me.

I knew that with the Ninja as they have little resists but high defence it would be a matter of pushing that element to the best possible level rather than trying to build resists from the ground up.

My idea was the superior healing of Dark to compensate for the greater damage taken when they actually do get hit. Perhaps I will be able to push their resists up enough so that a single hit wont kill in one but allow me to get a heal off. Thats basically what happens on Orange bosses at the moment, one hit and its down to red HP on the genin and I can heal if quick.

I have to say in larger groups all the clever A*s tactics to maximise damage etc go to pot. I find that as a melee mastermind I have to section off one part of the battle for my own as all the ranged ones with bots and mercs just form firing lines and *BLAM*BLAM*BLAM till everything is laying on the floor.

Anyone playing trick arrow wanna comment ? I imagine it suits Ninja theme wise but the lack of healing in Ninja primary I think would make it very hard.

Shu'Fang the Spider

I run shadowfall of course but I also run manouvers which I know is also only a small boost but my partner also runs it too both are SO slotted for DEF and +RES on shadowfall.

In terms of buffs on my minions I have all the leadership powers as does my partner so they are typically doubled up. I then run shadowfall also.

To assist their defence against anything more than about 3 mobs I run Darkest Night which is SO slotted for -ACC and now I have it, Fearsome stare which is also SO slotted for -ACC.

My genin are obviously the weakest and a red Tank Smasher boss can kill one in a single hit which they almost always do to at least one unless I debuff as he is coming in. Once the debuffs are on they tend to miss for the most part and allow my partner to get his holds on and then its game over for them.

With the Tanks I tend to passive goto my minions to one side, then pull the Tank with a debuff and take the AE grenade they always launch then call my Ninja in with either a straight up attack my target or a goto then attack to ensure melee.

Either way, we found that running manouvers and shadowfall made a significant difference to my Ninja's lifespan.

Shu'Fang The Spider

The Oni......

So I made 26 and got the Oni and have spent a longweekend of heavy play messing about with it.

It's fantastic. I personally like the looks though I know not everyone does. In the power info it is described as a Powerful Demon of Wind and Fire. Well I'm not entirely sure where the wind is but it sure has a lot of fire.

So what does it do ? Well if I just command to attack without consideration of range it tends to fire blast and mixes that with circle of fire to immobilse and Cone of fire if its close enough. I have not noticed a preference for it to go to melee or stay at range, it just blasts away.

The other Ninja have fairly week ranged attacks compared to their melee. The oni doesnt seem to suffer this really, its ranged attack is fairly good too. All in all If i want I can ignore it and it just does its thing.

With a little control however you can get it to do some amazing things. At medium to close range it almost 100% of the time opens up with a Cone of Fire, which is a 3 tick cone DOT which between lvl 26 and 28 (what I am right now) varies between about 19-24 damage per tick on everything it hits. So good placement using passive goto and then a well targeted attack results in a lovely burst of cone damage just about everytime. With a little juggling however this can be further enhanced.

If your quick, you can smokebomb the Oni, passive goto your assault point, target the primary mob and order attack within the smokebomb timer resulting in an amazing critical cone of fire which burns for double its damage on every tick. If your quick enough the Oni will pull a further crit out too.

What can I say, with the right control this henchman is devastating. I find that using smokebomb on the Oni is the best thing to do as no matter what range its at it does fairly even damage and with my Jounin placating and criting my damage is excellent.

At 28 I was a little lost as to what to take powerwise so I took Fearsome stare. Despite reading a few bad things about it I have found it really good. It offers me some mez control that is rarely resisted and puts yet another layer of -ACC on groups in conjunction with Darkest Night which along with the reams of DEF i buff for my minions seems to be working a treat.

I will post again as I head into the 30's and let you know my experiences.

Shu'Fang the Spider

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But I certainly wouldn't agree that life drain is a good attack or a good heal.

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I didn't say it was a good heal or a good attack I said it was a moderate damage slow recharge power that heals some.

It is what it is. In terms of the healing you have to juggle depending on what secondaries etc you have taken.

Ninja on the primary get no heal for pets or themselves.

Necros have pets that ultimately heal themselves and also get an average self heal with lifedrain.

Robots seem to have the best of it actually with a Medic Bot and also the repair skill.

Mercs, get a medic who heals everyone including the MM (correct me on that one).

In secondaries.

Dark Miasma....Fat PBAOE heal.

Poisons....Alkaloid single heal anyone

Traps...Triage beacon, wierd regen based plantable PBAOE healer.

Trick Arrow..none to my knowledge.

Other than Medicine with aid other and aid self there are no healing options. So I would personally say that Lifedrain offers a potential attack which offers 'some' healing if thats what you want to fill up a power. Its not a mainline heal by anymeans.

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The only thing that anoys me is my Jouin standing there watching the genin work there butts off and throwing what i can only guess are pencils at the enemy

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This is the one area where I feel their may well actually be a bug with the Henchman AI. The Jounin act very strange, sometimes standing there almost mezzed, even if you move them to a favourable position off the genins attack path they will just stand there looking....never seen it with genin, they are up for it nutters, only the jounin.

The feeling I get is that Masterminds work generally well. I have one question to all your non Dark Miasma though. I cant possibly imagine being able to sustain henchmen without Twiglight Grasp. I can bring a cluster of them back from almost zero hit points to full in one activation.

I know that Poisons has a single heal but how do you find keeping your guys alive without a big heal ? I probably only resummon ninja about one genin per mission if that though. Is it a case of simply calling forth more minions to replace lost ones as a non healing Mastermind ?

I'm not sure running comparisons of LIfe drain vs Twilight Grasp are relevant to be honest. It is what it is....a moderate damage slow recharge attack on Necromancy...it damages the enemy a bit and heals you a bit. If you haven't taken Dark Miasma for Twilight Grasp then the ability to heal yourself some is fairly usefull.

I took two of the attack powers on Ninja's - Aimed Shot and Fistfull of Arrows and have found them highly usefull, I use them quite a lot. As for this idea that as a MM were not an endurance AT...I don't get it. Try running Assault, Tactics, Manouvers, Shadowfall, combat jumping and holding a Darkest Night on an enemy then toss a coupla smokebombs and see what happens to your end.

My job as a mastermind (and I'm sure there are many ways to play) is to maintain my Ninja's effectiveness and lifespan with healing and buffs and then maximise the jounins damage with smokebombs and then join in with arrows and debuffs as appropriate.

If I had Necromancy and no DM, I would take the Life drain.

I was wondering about fearsome stare. I avoided it because I have my housemate with his dominator with me anyway and have taken powers to facilite defense on the Ninja and TP friend to enable my mates who are just joining the game to be moved about while lackey'd easy.

Whats the exact effect on fearsome ? is it a sleep ? immbilise ?

Having read the forums here and the US ones for about the last 2+ weeks one thing I am noticing is the lack of general chit chat about the Ninja Mastermind. In fact to be fair, I dont see that much undead talk either its usually all about the Bots and the forcefields or cha cha about which secondary is best. I'm playing a Ninja Mastermind with Dark Miasma as a secondary, I hit 24 so am now dealing with the pet leveling issue and am just missing my Oni now to be sorta complete. I thought I would share my own personal experience on how I have found them. Oh, I duo mainly with a Plants/Thorns Dominator too almost exclusively.

When I first summoned a Genin I was so so about the looks, I wanted a ninja....but as soon as I saw the Jounin I was fairly pleased with how they differentiated them and in terms of the Oni I thought that drawing on the mystic angle of Ninja myth was superb and am looking forward to learning how to control it. The pets for me performed well, I started out just using the out of the box commands but found that one genin would go for melee (usually the closest) and the rest would use medium range shuriken. That worked fairly well as they chuck the shuriken pretty fast but if there were multiple opponents I had to be in there healing the single Genin too much.

I spotted a thread about advanced keyboard binds (bows to writer of em) and my ability to control the Ninja has become absolute. By using goto and then attack I could ensure a high percentage of melee from all my Ninja although occasionally the Jounin kinda mez themselves and even moving them to a new position and then ordering attack again doesn't work but its rare. Either way the pet controls are essential to getting your Ninja to perform well. By using the training power my ninja all of course gained an extra attack and the Genin got bows. This allowed a further level of control where I could force them to send salvos of arrow fire by ordering attack from the relevant distance.

I initially supported my Ninja with Twilight Grasp to heal which I found superb with a little slotting I can heal most of my pets from almost nothing to full in a single activation and using the advanced pet commands I am mostly able to group them to compensate for the heal area, I also took Darkest Night to assist the defensive nature of the Ninja which I was able to anchor onto a mob and then using the pet commands kill last. I also used aimed shot and fistfull of arrows which I actually found pretty good at mopping up stuff my pets had roughed up as they went through the combat and also to bag flying enemies. Though now I am post 20 I and using a lot of other support powers I am finding I use them a little less.

As I progressed into the teens I started taking the leadership powers and found that they greatly helped. My partner had assault I maintain Tactics and Manouvers which slotted with a def buff and endurance reducers and I then took Shadowfall to add some damage resistance, lower agro range for zone in's and also extra defense to build on the multifronted defense buffing my Ninja enjoy. That seemed to work a treat, we hunt on Ruthless and I can easily keep my pets alive rarely losing them.

Smokebomb added a great and fun new element to my Ninja tactics as with a little timing I can get my Jounin to pull 3 crits on a straight up use of it and 4 crits if I time it after he has placated. At the least they will get 2 good crits in melee which I can usually force them into using good commands. Ive slotted for the moment mainly damage, accuracy on the Jounin and damage, accuracy and a disorient duration on the genin. I found I have not needed to take tar patch yet because of my partners holds and controls.

All in all what I am trying to say is that with a little control I've found no AI problems. The pets seem robust and I can keep them alive whilst getting great damage out of them and as a duo we hunt on Ruthless and find it challenging without suffering overt deaths. The ninja are stylish and seem to have a good range of capability and the support powers like smokebomb are good fun and also appear to have a good impact on my killing. I have had to slot a fair ammount of endurance reducers to cope with the buffs I run but it has seemed to work a treat and leaves me with enough endurance to toss smokebombs about and fire the odd arrow.

I won't comment on PvP yet as I suspected that the imbalance in hero's who are all SO and Hammy slotted to the hilt would make it a bind and low and behold when I went into BB I had about 3 flying blasters all trying to gank me, got TP'd into a group of [censored] on respawn at the Villain base and then pretty much one shotted by a rooting blaster who just ignored my pets. But I have faith that it will get better or I will just avoid it. I didnt buy CoH/CoV to PvP there are far better competitive games out there for that.

I would love to hear how other masterminds have found their weave of powers working out and the play styles they have enjoyed because of friends etc.

I duo exclusively with a Plants/Thorns Dominator, im a Ninja/Dark MM. I find it extremely successful, we jacked our mission difficulty right up to the second to last and enjoy challenging and fun missions.

The combination of Holds, confusion and sleep allow me to apply my ninjas to single targets and rip through them. Even red and purple bosses take a beating as I can focus on them whilst he controls any other mobs.

Very enjoyable.

Thanks for that, sounds interesting. I will look forward to it.

Jack Bones.

I started on CoH pretty much on release but took a break. I have seen mention of epic power pools but cant seem to find any info on them.

Anyone help ?