Havok_NA

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1. KaliMagdalene does have a valid point. Saying "if you slot it properly" doesn't change the point he is making. With a mob cap, you cannot simply floor the Acc of any mob you face. Those who have attacks that break thru high defense, and are themselves higher level foes, will still be able to get in shots. Somebody had also mentioned DE Quartz as an issue, and we have to KNOW that it's floored, since right now that's all we have.

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Ok now that I've fixed the post (man do I feel stupid ).

I'll say it again. If you invest even just a couple of slots the change to EA doesn't matter you floor everything up to +4 levels that EA affects. Play with the linked spreadsheet. The cap doesn't affect anything

lol ... yep ... corrected the post ... sorry folks chalk it up to my stupidity ...

Nah this is just a copy for folks reading this thread

The original is in the Tanker forum

Ok I posted this in the Tanker Forum but I'm posting it here also.

BTW Kali there is virtually no way for you to tell the difference between the old EA and the new EA. You're flooring the foe ACC either way (at least if you are slotting properly).

Here's a copy for you:



The following Analysis is heavily based on the shoulders of research done by Circeus and Archemedes. I've simply pulled numbers out and rearranged it. Big thanks to Circeus for the work he did and the assistance on helping me clean this data up.

For the basis of the research I'm comparing the following build to the Superman Build given in my signiture. I have attempted to keep the builds as similar as I could. Of course that's not 100% possible.

Archetype: Tanker
Primary Powers: Ice Armor
Secondary Powers: Super Strength

01 : Jab dam(01)
01 : Frozen Armor endred(01) endred(3) defbuf(3) defbuf(5) defbuf(5) defbuf(13)
02 : Chilling Embrace endred(02)
04 : Taunt tntdur(04)
06 : Wet Ice endred(06) defbuf(7) defbuf(7) defbuf(9) defbuf(9) defbuf(11)
08 : Air Superiority dam(08) dam(48) dam(48) dam(48) dam(50)
10 : Hasten recred(10) recred(11) recred(13) recred(15) recred(17) recred(19)
12 : Haymaker dam(12) dam(15) dam(17) dam(34) dam(34) dam(34)
14 : Super Speed runspd(14)
16 : Hurdle jmp(16)
18 : Glacial Armor endred(18) defbuf(19) defbuf(21) defbuf(21) defbuf(23) defbuf(25)
20 : Knockout Blow dam(20) dam(23) dam(31) dam(33) dam(33) dam(33)
22 : Health hel(22)
24 : Stamina endrec(24) endrec(25) endrec(27) endrec(29) endrec(31) endrec(31)
26 : Energy Absorption defbuf(26) defbuf(27) defbuf(29) defbuf(42) defbuf(42) defbuf(43)
28 : Icicles endred(28) dam(43) dam(43) dam(46) dam(50)
30 : Rage recred(30)
32 : Punch dam(32) dam(37) dam(37) dam(37) dam(40) dam(42)
35 : Hoarfrost recred(35) recred(36) recred(36) recred(36)
38 : Foot Stomp dam(38) dam(39) dam(39) dam(39) dam(40) dam(40)
41 : Hibernate recred(41)
44 : Conserve Power recred(44) recred(45) recred(45) recred(45) recred(46) recred(46)
47 : Laser Beam Eyes dam(47)
49 : Energy Torrent dam(49) dam(50)

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01 : Brawl Empty(01)
01 : Sprint Empty(01)
02 : Rest Empty(02)

Perma-Powers:
Hasten
Hoar Frost

Near Perma-Powers:
Conserve Power

Toggle Powers:
Frozen Armor
Chilling Embrace
Wet Ice
Glacial Armor
Icicles (Optional)

Endurance
Recovery Rate: 3.01 End/Sec
Loss Rate: 1.27 End/Sec w/out Icicles 2.0 End/Sec w/ Icicles*
Net Recovery Rate: 1.74 End/Sec w/out Icles 1.01 End/Sec w/ Icicles

*NOTE: According to Circeus the end cost on Icicles is higher then the value given. It instead is an additional 0.5 end/sec. This further shows the endurance cost disadvantage that Ice suffers from.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Endurance Comparison

Lets compare the Endurance recovery rate first. Without even taking into account Icicles Ice has to run 1 additional Defensive Toggle to be operating at the optimal defensive level. That is an inherint disadvantage. To get peak performance I had to introduce Endurance Reducers in powers that Ice does not. Even then Invul recovers endurance at a faster rate. Endurance is clearly an issue that Ice has to deal with. Considering the endurance problems I have with my Invul tank I definately feel for Ice here.

Raw Survivability

Ok there is no way for me to measure and computate Alpha Strike Deaths (those deaths caused by almost every attack from a foe coming in simultaneously and hitting successfully). Ice indeed has to fear the Alpha Strike.

The Analysis Spreadsheet!

This spreadsheet is probably the single most comprehensive head to head analysis of elite builds to date. In order to simulate real gaming situations I utilized a rounding situation.

I assumed 50 badguys in a single pull (40 Minions, 8 Lts, 2 Bosses), this is to show a moderate pull for most tanks. I assumed that there is a 2.5% decrease in effectiveness for Chilling Embrace per +1 of the mob over the level of the heroe. I ran the analysis from 0 to +4. We'll also assume that all foes are in Melee range. Yes this is a slight advantage for Invul (with the way Invince works) but that's fair since we fight at melee range and should round as such.

To fully take into account possible situations I ran the analysis for each damage type. Now this is a slight variance from reality because we all know that the 40+ game is full of mixed damage but it is too hard to properly model a mixed damage situation. However I think the impact of this on the Analysis is minute since we have the numbers for each individual damage type.

So pop open that link and lets look at what we see.

1) You'll see a quick list of what assumptions we made.
2) We'll see next the break down of Ice Resists/Defenses. These are intially listed as a base value then as an adjusted value that takes into account the # of foes we are facing and the enhancers we have slotted.
3) Below that we see a Breakdown of Invul's Resists/Defenses. Like Ice there are two sets Base and Adjusted.
4) Next we see a breakdown of our test pool. These are our Minions/Lts/Bosses. Now ACC boosts are based on 5% per level. I treat the foes as doing 10 (you can do it with them doing any number you desire) successful strikes so we can look at a time slice vs a single attack.
5) Now we get to the real paydirt. I am giving on average the amount of damage you'ld take as an Ice Tank if all 50 did a specific damage type for a given level. For example: if you are Ice and were fighting 50 foes all +2 levels who did pure Fire Damage (and matched all our other criteria) then you'ld take 1382.4 pts of fire damage over the 10 attack string from all 50 foes.
6) Like Ice we now see the same breakdown for Invul!
7) Finally we hit the most important tables. These are the key tables. They tells us how effective Ice is compared to Invul at a given foe level range and damage type (i.e. how much more damage does Ice take then Invul for Smashing/Lethal against 50 +0 foes, how much more effective is Ice over Invul against Cold attacks, etc)

Mr. Havok sir what does it all mean?

I'm glad you asked Timmy ...

Seriously this analysis tells us a few very important things.
<ul type="square">[*]Ice is getting overcharged on the Endurance. It needs an overall endurance cost reduction.[*]Ice is getting short changed Defensively. Against even level foes Ice will take almost 6 times as much damage on average then Resistance. The most common damage sources Ice will almost always take more damage. Now on the rare damage types (Psionics/Toxic/Cold) Ice does do better but there isn't enough of that type of damage to offset the weakness.[*]For the +0 to +4 range DEFENSE SCALES AS WELL OR BETTER THEN RESISTANCE. Yep that's contrary to popular belief but I've ran this analysis before and always came to the same conclusion. Until you start looking at the really big +8's to +10's Defense is actually superior to RES at scaling due to the hard cap on RES and Damage scaling faster then ACC does. You may not like it but the numbers show it ... as levels increase Ice does shorten the gap between the two. Since +0 to +4 is the range the Devs balance off of we need to keep that in mind when we make our arguements. Now remember I'm talking about scaling here. The rate of improvement for Defense is insufficient to catch the lead an Invul Tank already has.[*]Ice I supposed to be the mix of Controller and Tank but unfortunately they only get 2 powers that are supposed to accomplish that Chilling Embrace and Icicles (which isn't really controller like). CE while nice isn't a real CC power and Icicles is a joke. It does squat for damage.[/list]
As extra fun after seeing these numbers I decided to run a comparison between Invul Scrappers and Ice Tanks. I slotted Invincibility slightly higher because of the lower RES cap on Invul Scrappers and what a shock but Ice Tanks are owned by Invul Scrappers in Melee Range! You can see the analysis here: Ice Tank vs. Invul Scrapper

Eventually I'll get around to doing more X vs. Y analysis. I know Stone Tanks are compariable to Invul so doing Ice vs. Stone would kind of be moot but a DA Scrapper vs. an Invul Scrapper might be fun

Mr. Havok sir what would you do?

Timmy your questions make your mommy proud!

Well lets see:
<ul type="square">[*]I'ld reduce endurance for Ice to a more acceptable level.[*]I'ld add 20% Smashing/Lethal RES to Frozen Armor.[*]I'ld adjust Icicles so that it becomes a DEF/RES debuff and PBAoE Taunt like Invincibility.[*]I'ld also take a long hard look at Permafrost. That power adds no value. I took it completely out of the analysis when I saw how it did nothing for Ice. That power needs replaced or retooled.[/list]
Then I'ld step back and see how that worked.

Glad to hear it Mekanic

That's the goal of this guide. To help folks who simply didn't know the best way to slot defenses

I'm betting I can guess this one:

1) Debt has been reduced till level 10 because not all characters are created equal nor are all players created equal. The devs want to make it easy for new players coming to learn the system that we long ago mastered. The first 10 levels come quick enough but probably have a high death % so trim it out and let them learn until level 10.
2) The reduced Death Debt in missions is to add additional incentive to do missions over street sweeping. Players are missing entire story lines, challenging encounters, etc. because they Street Sweep right past those encounters. This is to encourage them to do missions without nerfing anyone nor giving a rediculous boost to IM. Really it's better then upping the XP boost from missions because the skilled players rarely die in missions anyway

[ QUOTE ]
Couple of changes we're making in I5:

1) Instead of the first five levels being debt free, the first TEN levels will be debt free.

2) XP debt will be halved on mission maps (that includes outdoor mission maps, too).

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I love you ... can I have your baby?

lol ... nah the build is actually amazingly functional. There are a few things that are 'extra' like Laser Beam Eyes but to be honest I like them.

You could with a couple of Hami O's drop RPD completely from the build ... but I choose not too

Yeah there are some really minor tweaks but you'll find the build is insanely effective. You'ld probably have to go with a completely different build (like Inv/Fire or Inv/EM) to get any appreciable difference in performance.

That said ... I think we agree. A true superman is just not buildable

I'm pretty sure mobs have a curve not a linear growth in ACC as they get above your level.

Enhancers always work the same way ... always. If players think they don't then they are doing something wrong or don't know a critical piece of information.

For multiplicitive effects it's always:

BASE*(1+SUM OF ENHANCERS)

For divisive effects (Endurance Reducers for example) it's always:

Base/(1+SUM OF ENHANCERS).

See the link in my sig if you want to get specific examples of DEF and ACC enhancers in action. It'll calculate them for you. A simple example though:

ACC (3 SO even level enhancers)

75%*(1+.33+.33+.33)=149.9%

DEF(3 SO's even level enhancers)

30%*(1+.2+.2+.2)= 48%

Always the same equations Occasionally it may get buried in a large equation (see geko's explination on how Regen works for a complex equation that these enhancements are buried in).

Deadeye ... there is no way to truly build Supeman in this game. It can't be done. You'ld have to have a massive variety of powers that cross over to the controller group (ice breath) and defender groups (gale).

But since you can't the goal is to max out the possibility of the build and get them as close to 'Superman' as possible. This is it.

Maxing out RPD is pointless and counter productive. You must cut some other facit that you don't want to cut.

Playing this built at 50 I highly recommend it

Don't forget the aggro that Invincibility adds

Nope with the boost to ACC that everyone is taking they will have ACC's around the area of 124%+

If you take Tough Hide and slot it with an 3 SO's you end up around 18% DEF ... when your toggles drop you still end up having them hitting you around 95% of the time.

With 6 Hami O's you might actually get them down to a 80-90% chance of hitting you but I haven't run the math to verify that.

So what the heck does slotting Tough Hide buy you in PvP?

Obviously I have Superspeed and I use it regularly. I don't think I could give up Hasten though. Hasten is needed for rounding foes with even moderate slow affects.

Unstoppable is a nice grab since It'll help in PvP but I don't know if I'ld sacrifice 6 slotted Hasten to get it.

You can work with 5 slotted Hover though

I'm absolutely loving 6 Slotted Hover ... it's very helpful for rounding! It's fast but not too fast (as others have said about as fast as 1 slotted fly).

I'm pretty ticked about they way they have Fly set up as is so I think when you are building a Tank Hover 6 slotted is superior to Fly.

Glad to help

Abso-tootin-lootly

If I could change my user Id back to Havok I would but unfortunately someone else has it after my old Beta account got deleted

Sad days I know.

BTW Happy B-Day _Pax_

Of course I could always copy off of you and get close to having my name back

Hmmm ... strange ... I wrote most of this from memory but I know that the two ran same numbers against a foe

Perhaps I should have ran a true test. If the foe I was fighting had Smashing resistance when I did my quick test (I really didn't bother looking) then the damages could have been about the same.

I'll have to run a quick test when I get a chance on a valid opponent then Good catch if youa re right ImmortalNite.

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Super Speed also causes a hit to your accuracy.

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That was removed in I1 I believe. In beta it did have an accuracy hit for a time. However it was determined that the disadvantage of no Vertical and running through crowds of badguys who would spawn on top of you was bad enough

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Very interesting.

I noticed how you slotted your attacks for straight damage. Is the To Hit buff from Invincy enough to give you decent accuracy? Does it increase like the Def per mob in melee?

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Between Rage and Invince I almost never miss

Look I got to step in after this one.

I'm one who has no problem with Fly being somewhat slower or cost a little more endurance then the other travel powers.

HOWEVER. The extent of the shafting leaves me still stunned after as long as we have been playing.

Seriously Fly is kewl but is it cool enough that it deserves the shafting it gets ... no.

Remember the other Powersets also have their special gifts:

Super Jump is unaffected by slow.
Super Speed adds Stealth.
Teleport is the fastest by far.
Fly ... well Fly is supposedly safe but I'm trying to figure out how it's any safer then Teleport. I'ld like someone to explain that one to me ... oh and fly adds an ACC debuff.

Sorry but Fly has long been getting the shafting on Endurance and Speed.

lol ... I don't know exactly how much enhancing swift buys you but I know it's not much.

Superman may not be as fast as flash but remember he's faster then Quicksilver or Kid Flash

That puts him into the Super Speed catagory IMHO. Also he has to have something like Haste to let him change in a Phone Booth so darn fast ... nobody sees Superman in his skivvies!

46 Fire Fire Tank?

Well I hate to tell you that I can't say. See long ago I made a promise not to discuss Fire Tanker balance (I was accused of causing the first Burn Nerf) so I've simply stayed away from them and make 0 comments about them if at all possible. You'll have to see if someone else can comment on them in detail.

Only things that I know is that no Fire Tank will match an Invul for pure Tanking capabilities but no Invul Tank can match Fire for kill rate.

See my sig for How to Build Superman v3.0 &amp; Inv/SS guide.

How to build Superman v3.0 &amp; Inv/SS Guide

Updated and improved.