Folonius

With all the Fire/Kin questions that pop up every now and then in the Controller Forum, I’d figure I’d make a guide for them, as the Fire\Kin is my favorite build. I have 3 of them, which I intend to dual build to try out all the Epic Powers. I farm on my Fire/Kin, but I also enjoy playing him as much as I do farming. This guide will explain how to play a Fire/Kin effectively at every level, and will break down all the powers and the benefits on hindrances of each power.

So what makes a Fire/Kin Controller so good? I’ve noticed, as I play with other builds, that Fire/Kin has a little bit of everything, or a jack of all trades. You’ll be able to hold critters, and you’ll be able to cause damage to them. You have a heal which also acts as a debuff to regeneration. You have two damage boosting powers which also acts as a debuff to the targets. You’ll have the best endurance recovery power in the game, transference. You will be able to buff teammates with speed boost and/or inertial reduction. If you take all these assets that a Fire/Kin has, and add IO’s and set bonuses into the mixture, you will have a one man team wrecking machine that has it all.

A Guide to the Fire/Kin Controller

FIRE

Level 1: Ring of Fire – This power causes a single foe moderate DoT damage and immobilizes them. It’s good for soloing, and DPS at lower levels, but useless at higher levels. As you advance in level, you’ll end up using it less and after your imps and fulcrum shift, you won’t need the DPS, and the power slot can be spent on something more useful. If you take this power early in your career, you’d be best to respec out of it once you get your Imps.

Level 1: Char – This is your single foe hold power, and is a must for any build. It causes minor damage, and is good for holding that annoying creature than is in your face, or for a boss.

Level 2: Fire Cages – This is the same as ring of fire, except it hits large groups of creatures. This power is essential if you want to take on large groups at the same time, as it locks them down. It can allow energy blasters to throw everything they have at a group without worrying about knocking them all over, and is great to use after a tank has herded a group. Lock them down, and they will stay tight for all those team AoE’s. You can also slot this power for range, damage, accuracy, end reduction, and solo large groups of low level mobs, -1’s, or equal level. Be aware that if you miss one, that one will be in your face. You can use char or ring of fire on that one. Watch your endurance, as it drains quickly. Also be aware that this can sometimes cause problems on teams as well. If there are a lot of people on the teams that use knockdown or knockback as damage mitigation, you may want to hold off on using this, and see how well the team does without this power.

Level 6: Smoke – This is a useful power, as it decreases the chance for creatures to hit, and lowers their perception. If you are going for a team build, and want to be more of a controller than a DPS, this is a good power. I didn’t really like this power; having a stealth IO accomplishes the same -perception, and with the AoE holds, you won’t have to worry about anything even taking a swing at you. I found this power useless in a group setting, and in solo play.

Level 8: Hot Feet - This power is another must. It’s useful playing solo and in groups. It does decent damage and twice the amount if you fire cage a group, and hop into the middle of them. Be aware that this can cause a lot of agro, and I wouldn’t try to solo a group this way, but with a tank, or some of your other AoE holds this can be devastating.

Level 12: Flash Fire – This power is a must for any build. It’s one of your AoE control powers, and you can disorient a group before they even take a shot at you. Use Hot Feet, Flash Fire, Fire Cages, and hop in the middle of the group, recast Fire Cages whenever it’s up, and watch them all melt before they can even take a swing at you. The only down side to this at early levels is the time it takes to recharge flash fire, and you will most likely be drained of endurance by the time the mobs are all down.

Level 18: Cinders – This is another must have for the controller. You have to be in the middle of a group for it to work, but in conjunction with a stealth IO, super speed, or both, you can use this power without taking a hit. Although not needed for farming, I find this power very useful, and has saved me many times. It’s a great panic button, as it will hold most mobs. It is also useful for holding bosses, use cinders followed by char to hold a boss. I am able to rez in the middle of groups by using an awaken, break free, green, blue, and pop cinders. You have to be quick in doing this, but if done correctly, you should be able to retoggle all your powers, use transfusion, transference, and pick up right where u left off.

Level 26: Bonfire – Quite possible the most useless power ever. I’ve never had any luck with this power, as it knocks groups all over the place before I can lock them back down in time with fire cages. This is too much of a situational power to be very useful, and I find kick (from the fighting power set) to be much more useful than bonfire. This is a skip power in any build.

Level 32: Fire Imps – Your imps …. This is the power every fire controller waits for, and a must for every build.

KINETICS

Level 1: Transfusion – This is a must for every kinetic Controller …. Because you don’t have much of a choice, and it’s an awesome power. It’s a targeted AoE, so you will need to slot it for accuracy, heal, and recharge. I have doctored wounds in the set, and one accuracy IO. It gives -regeneration to the target, and heals everything next to that target. It’s a debuff, and a heal all in one, and is good in any situation.

Level 2: Siphon Power – Gives the target -damage, and gives +damage to yourself, and any team member near you. This is useful against any target that is hard to kill, AV’s, GM’s, EB’s, etc. This is almost a must take, as the other option of powers at this level are rather limited. Use this power with fire cages and hot feet for added effect.

Level 4: Repel – Similar to Force Fields repulsion field effect, this is extremely useless for most kinetics. It knocks mobs away from you; however, you want to be close to the mobs for most of the kinetic powers to be useful. This is a skipable power if you intend to stay close to targets.

Level 10: Siphon Speed – This is a must take for any build. This adds +recharge and allows everything to recharge faster. The quicker your holds recharge, the more effective you will be. If you are concerned about speed, and running into things, you should think about playing something other than a kinetics.

Level 16: Increase Density – This is a good power if you’re a defender, but skipable if you are a controller. This protects an ally from disorient, immobilization, holds, knockback, repels, and teleportation. It also increases resistance to smashing and energy. As a controller, you can skip this power. *See Speed Boost

Level 20: Speed Boost – One of the most disputed powers in the game, people are mad if you don’t have it, and people are made if you give it to them. I was once kicked off a team for not having this power on my fire/kin. This power is very debatable on whether it should be taken or not, and it depends on how you want to use your controller. I took it on my fire/kin/fire, but for my second build, fire/kin/psi, I skipped it. It’s very useful if you have a stone tank on the team, or if you are fighting knives (caltrops). Even while fighting knives, I’ve had people ask me not to SB them. More often than not, I go through mission teams without anyone asking me for an SB. So you can skip this if you don’t want it. If you don’t take speed boost, you could take increase density to fill the empty spot, or you could just skip both powers and take something completely different.

Level 28: Inertial Reduction – It helps team members jump …. WHOOPIE! (Skip it)

Level 35: Transference – This is, in my opinion, the best end recovery power in the game. It’s a ranged attack, so it will need to be slotted for accuracy. It drains endurance from an enemy, and transfers it to anyone near that target. This is a must take for any build.

Level 38: Fulcrum Shift – This is a must take for any controller build. This is a ranged attack, so you will need to slot accuracy. This increases your damage for every one creature you affect, and gives -damage to every creature affected up to 10. This boosts your damage dramatically, and can turn a tank, scrapper, or a fire/kin with imps into a wreaking machine. I slotted this power with 3 accuracy IO’s and 3 recharge IO’s.





EPICS

Fire Mastery

Fire Mastery was my first Fire/Kin and hence is my choice pick. It offers fire resist to the popular behemoth farm and has high damage output thanks to fulcrum shift + fireball, but offers no mez resistance.

Fire Blast – Hits a single target and causes moderate damage. Doesn’t draw much agro and not to bad for someone playing the role of a controller, but not that potent of a power if you are looking to take on large spawns, and can be skipped.

Fire Ball – Targeted AoE, and is the best damage in the fire epic set. Use Fulcrum Shift, and throw a fire ball for maximum damage. This is a must take for any fire epic controller.

Fire Shield – Gives good resist to Fire, Lethal, Smash, and Cold. This is a must take for any fire/kin/fire controller.

Consume – IMHO, this is not necessary because of Transference.


Psionic Mastery

This was my second pick as a power because of IW and the opportunity to farm clockwork. If I could turn back time, this would have been my first pick. With a lot of influence, you’ll be able to cap recharge to gain perma IW, and would be able to tank anything with the regeneration that transfusion offers.

Mental Blast – Causes moderate damage and -recharge to a single target. This won’t cause much agro, but not very damaging, and can be skipped if you are looking to do more damage.

Indomitable Will – This power gives resistance to sleep, disorient, fear, hold effects, and defense to psionic attacks for 90 seconds. This is a must take for any Psionic Fire/Kin. With a lot of influence, this can be made permanent also (recharge less than 90 seconds).

Mind Over Body – This is the psi toggle for armor, and grants smashing, lethal, and psionic resistance. This is a must take for any psi fire/kin.

Psionic Tornado – This is a targeted AoE, causes moderate DoT and has a Knockdown effect. It is the main damage dealer for psionic fire/kin’s and is a must take.

Stone Mastery

This is my third pick, and is still a work in progress for me. If offers capped hp, and an extra stun power, fissure, which doubles as DPS. I have yet to see how it operates, but with less than a 20 second recharge, potentially offers the ability to move from spawn to spawn without slowing down.

Hurl Bolder – This is a ranged attack, and causes high damage and foe knockback to a single target. This won’t cause much agro, as you are only targeting a single target, but it would not be an optimal power to take if you are looking to deal damage. This is skipable if you want to have a higher DPS.

Fissure – This is a close ranged, targeted AoE that causes moderate damage, knockback, and disorient. Used with fire cages, this can be a very damaging attack as it also causes the targets to be stunned and has a quick recharge. This is the main damage dealer of Fire/Kin/Stone.

Seismic Smash – This is a melee attack, and causes extreme damage and holds the targeted foe. This is a good single attack to use with char if you are going for more of a control build or a team build, but not very useful for a farming build as it only affects one target.

Rock Armor – This is the resist toggle for stone mastery, and grants resist to lethal and smashing.

Earth’s Embrace – This grants +hp and is also a heal. This lasts for 120 seconds, and with enough recharge, this can be made permanent. This power will put you at your hp cap with a few other enhancements, and some accolades.

Ice Mastery

This will be the fourth pick for me, but looks like it would be very useful in a PvP setting. Slotted with slow, it may be able to slow down someone moving around to much to be able to get close to them and benefit from transfusion and transference, which has always been a problem with my Fire/Kin’s in PvP.

Ice Blast – This is a single target attack that causes moderate damage, -speed and -recharge. This is good if you are looking to do less damage and more control, or for PvP.

Hibernate – This is similar to rest, except nothing can touch you while u are resting, and is a useful panic button. This is a popular power in PvP.

Frozen Armor – This is the protective toggle for Ice Mastery. It grants +defense to Smashing and Lethal, and +resist to cold.

Ice Storm – This is a ranged AoE that causes minor damage, but also gives -recharge and -speed to targets. This combines damage and control into one.



Primal Forces Master

This will be my final epic that I play, but not because it’s bad, but simply because I see a fire/kin more as a front line controller. It offers Power Boost which is reason enough to take the epic set. It will increase the time of your holds, and boost your secondary effects such as healing, fulcrum shift, transference, and many other buffs. Conserve power will help you stay in the back of the ranks longer without having to worry about losing endurance.

Power Blast – A ranged attack, and affects a single target causing moderate damage and foe knockback.

Conserve Power – Reduces endurance costs dramatically on all powers. I’m not entirely sure if you are able to get this permanent with enough recharge, and haven’t looked into it. Base duration is 90 seconds, and recharge is 600 seconds, so the recharge that is needed is huge.

Energy Torrent – This is a ranged cone attack, causes moderate damage, and knockback. For farming, this has the potential to cause more problems than help, scattering groups around to much.

Temp Invulnerability – This is an armor toggle that grants resist to smashing and lethal.

Power Boost – This increases all secondary effects except for knockback. It increases the duration of your stuns, holds, immobilizes, heals, endurance drains, and many other powers. The duration of this power is 15 seconds, and I’m unsure if you can be made permanent with enough recharge.


How to choose your powers

There’s three ways I look at a controller, do you want him to be heavy on control, and a little squishy, light on the control, and up in the creatures face, or a little bit of control, and a little bit of buffing. I usually have an idea of what I want before I make the toon, and build the costume accordingly. Generally, when I play a fire/kin, I enjoy an in your face character. If this is your play style, I will try and give you some suggestions to powers you want to take.

Fire/Kin in the Front Line
At lower levels, you will want to focus primarily on your control powers, as an in your face type controller won’t blossom into what you want until the later levels, and it’s best you understand how a Fire/Kin controller works before you try anything courageous. Take char, fire cages, and flashfire early. Try to group often, use flashfire when you can to help the group, and use fire cages only after you have used flashfire; fire cages can cause a lot of agro. Hot Feet comes in handy as well. It deals good damage, and you can drop all the minions in the group quickly using flashfire/fire cages/hot feet combo. Keep an eye on your endurance if you use this combo at early levels. Target your heals through a scrapper or a tank, and bind the command “$$target_enemy_near” to a key that is easy to hit. I have it on my “z” key. Simply type /bind z “$$target_enemy_near”. All it requires is a move of my pinky, and I have a target that will most likely give me health if I use transfusion. I also took siphon speed at an early level, and is a must take whether you take it early in your career or later.

Take combat jumping, and super jump as your travel power, and take siphon power. Then start taking the fitness set to get stamina by level 20. Don’t worry about speed boost or increase density, and take whichever one you want when you feel it will fit in. From the levels 20-30 you can experiment a little, and take powers from power pools. Haste is a must take whether you take it early or later. I took the fighting pool between the levels 20-30. Kick is decent, and I slotted a force feedback +recharge. Tough grants resist to smashing and lethal, and adds up nicely once you get your epic armor, and weave grants more defense. It makes my fire/kin less squishy against groups that only deal smashing and lethal. Get some +hp accolades and some +hp set bonuses once you hit 50 and you’ll have a well rounded character.

Once you hit 32, you will take your imps, followed by transference, and then finally fulcrum shift. If you haven’t taken haste, or siphon speed by level 38, you will want to fit them in at level 47 and/or level 49.

Fire/Kin in the Back Line

Fire Control has many useful control powers, and can stand toe to toe when some of the best control sets. They have Char, Flashfire, and Cinders. You can take smoke as well, which gives –perception to a group, and have enough time to run into the group, and use cinders without taking a scratch. Smoke also grants -tohit and is useful in any group. If this is the route you are taking, I would take fire cages, smoke, flashfire, and cinders at an early level. Hot Feet is still useful, but I wouldn’t risk jumping into a group until you have used flash fire, or use smoke, cinders, then turn on hot feet; otherwise, you could skip hot feet.

The nice thing about going with a fire/kin that stands out of the way instead of being in the fray is you have more decisions from levels 20-30. You can take both speed boost and increase density, or buffs like grant invisibility from power pools, the leadership pool, or medicine. Experiment and see what you like the best, and save a respec for around level 35 so you’ll be able to keep your options open. Avoid taking powers that are useless just to get to a power you think would be good (i.e. don’t take provoke so you can get intimidate and invoke panic.)

Take your imps at level 32, followed by transference at 35 and fulcrum shift at 38. Once you get into your epic powers, you’ll have more options offered. Many of the epic power pools themselves have some nice control powers in them, which I have covered already and will cover again later in this guide.

Fire/Kin Buffer

My first suggestion to you is if you are reading this with intent on making a fire/kin buffer, make a kin/ defender. Kin Defenders are much better at buffing than Kin Controllers and anyone who thinks a controller should have every buff power in the kin set is wrong. A controller has less bonuses than a defender, and should be played like a controller. There are controllers that make good team buffers, such as mind/ff (which I have). If you are dead set on making a fire/kin buffer, take ID and speed boost when possible. I never understood the point of inertial reduction, but I suppose you could take that too … ah just go make a kin defender ….


Epic Powers

I will break the epic powers into two categories, one for a fire/kin who thinks he’s a tank, and one for the controller.

Fire Mastery for the Front Line Fire/Kin:

The point a fire/kin tank is to cause as much damage as possible. The best power for this is fireball. Take that at level 41, and take Fire Shield at level 44. Skip fire blast and consume. Fire blast only hits one target, and consume is not needed because of transference. Work on getting global recharge; hasten and siphon speed will help. If you are serious about maxing your fire/kin, get a few purple sets, and some LoTG’s +7.5

Fire Mastery for the Back Line Fire/Kin:

Fire isn’t that great of a set to take for someone who wants to be 100% controller. If you insist on fire, I would take fire ball, fire shield, and either consume, or two other powers that grant special effects. Repel might be a good choice, to keep mobs away from you.


Psionic Mastery for the Front Line Fire/Kin:

Psionic is a great set for a controller who wants to hang with the tanks. You can get up close and personal with any group using indomitable will which you can get at level 41. Take mind over body at level 44, and psionic tornado at level 47. In taking this set, I found that I had no room to take speed boost. If you decide to go with this build, don’t be surprised if you have people getting mad when they shout “SB PLEASE!” and they don’t get any.

Psionic Mastery for the Back Line Fire/Kin:

This set does have some control features in it, and is nice because you have indomitable will. Psionic tornado is the control in the set, which causes AoE knockdown. The only problem I see is knockdown for a controller is pretty close to useless because of fire cages. You will be unable to knockdown targets that have been affected by fire cages.


Stone Mastery for the Front Line Fire/Kin:

Stone mastery is a great set for a fire/kin who wants to get in close. It has high smash and lethal resist, and the main attack power, fissure, recharges every 20 seconds unenhanced. At level 41, take Fissure. It causes knockback, but that shouldn’t matter as long as you use fire cages first. It also stuns the targets, and with a quick recharge, you can keep a group stunned until their down. Alternate fire cages and fissure. Seismic smash, although quite useful, is still skipable if you are going for this build because it only targets once creature. Take rock armor at level 44, and Earth’s Embrace at level 47. With this set, you will be able to max your hit points quite easily with earth’s embrace, which is also a useful heal.

Stone Mastery for the Back Line Fire/Kin:

Stone Mastery is even better for someone who wants to use it for control. Fissure is a good AoE stun attack, and seismic smash is a hold. Earth’s embrace can be used as a personal heal if you aren’t standing near any targets, and you can take rock armor, or you can skip it knowing that you don’t ever intend to be close enough to any threats.


Ice Mastery for the Front Line Fire/Kin:

Ice blast, although I’ve never used it, could be a good set for this type of play style. I would skip ice blast, take hibernate to use as a panic button, and frozen armor at level 44, and frost breath at level 47. The secondary -speed and -recharge powers on ice storm wouldn’t make much of a difference, as fire cages effectively prevents groups from moving. The recharge is a whooping 120 seconds, so this is skipable in the ice mastery set for this type of build. This would be my least favorite mastery for this type of play, although I suspect would do quite well in a PvP zone.

Ice Mastery for the Back Line Fire/Kin:

This would probably be my third choice as a mastery for this type of play style. Hibernate would make a good panic button, ice blast can slow down the boss in the group, and ice storm can slow down a large group of creatures. Although not the best set, this would still be effective for a control controller.


Primal Forces Mastery for the Front Line Fire/Kin:

I have never tried this epic set for a fire/kin, but is quite useful. Conserve power, although probably not able to become permanent through global recharge, is useful, although not really needed because of transference. Pick either power blast or conserve power, whichever you think would be more useful. After that, I would take Temp Invulnerability, and then Energy Torrent as you main damage power at 47. Power Boost makes this set, although for this type of play style, isn’t really needed. The normal duration of you holds is likely more than enough to take down a group.

Primal Forces Mastery for the Back Line Fire/Kin:

One power makes this epic set worth taking, power boost. It enhances your hold and stun times. Take power blast and target through another blaster, or conserve power, and make it as close to permanent as you can. Conserve power will allow you to stay out of the fray longer before you run out of endurance. I would shy away from energy torrent, and take temp invulnerability, and then finally power boost.

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This is a lot like how, say, Dark Melee -> Dark Consumption is largely an inferior endurance drain power than, say, Energy Aura -> Energy Drain. It's a drain power in a damage powerset, as opposed to Energy Drain, which is a drain power in a defence set.


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Those two powers are in different sets and they do the exact same thing. One damages the Mobs endurance, the other damages the Mobs HP, and they are both teir 7 powers. They are very comparable, and should be.

Force Bolt and Power Push should be similar to how those powers are.

Simple suggestion, to make power push a little more effective.

Force Bolt is a tier 3 power, and does minor damage, and a high knockback.

Power Push is a tier 7 power, does minor damage, and a high knockback, but is actually a lower knockback value than forcebolt.

Unfortunatly, paragonwiki doesn't list the exact values of the KB values, but Mid's puts Power Push KB value just under Force Bolt (currently not at home, but can list the values later).

I think Power Push is underpowered for a tier 7 power, and should either add more damage to the power to at least moderate; maybe even high, or double the KB potential.

Iraq

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It's silly to try and balance the rewards for TFs depending on how 'difficult' it is.


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It's silly to think otherwise. There should be a difference in rewards for a 30 minute TF and a 6 hour TF other than an Attaboy.

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Players who are farming TFs for drops won't really care what TF it is - they will work out which TF they can run the fastest and do that one over and over. 'Tokens' might affect their choice of TF but it won't affect their enjoyment.


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The keyword there is enjoyment. People like to get drops they want, and sometimes they want it so much, that they are willing to run that same TF over and over, but it doesn't mean that it would be more enjoyable than some other TF. The only reason they are running KHTF is because it's short, not because it's fun. It would be something I wouldn't mind see getting fixed.

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For everyone else the TF itself is the reward. The drop at the end should is nowhere near as important as the content of the TF.


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That is the case for only a very small percentage of people. The rewards should equal the risk. I see no reason to run any TF's that are not in my level range of gaining xp for a toon other than getting a badge. After that, I will never run that particular TF again for that toon.

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If you mean "Villains team less", then I definitely agree. But that's not because teaming is harder, it's because soloing is vastly easier.


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Whichever reason it is, when I want to team, I can't find one.

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All villain ATs are adept soloers,


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It's interesting you should say that. This poster doesn't agree with that statement.

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Doctored wounds and Thunderstrike

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You wont get a good reading from them currently ....

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Reserves. <...>
The higher the population the larger the reserve, larger reserves turn over faster and larger reserves usually result in lower prices
<...>


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This cannot be proven without actually increasing the population, or number crunching, and discovering where the Production Possibility Frontier (PPF) would lie with an increased population. We do not have access to those numbers and statistics. It could very well be that with an increased population, there would be less items available on the market.

However, I veiw market slots as potential income, and not as storage space. Each slot is worth 30-50% roughly of items I buy and flip on the market. If I buy somthing for 1mil influence, I'll sell it for 2mil. More enhancement slots would increase this sort of activity, which I wouldn't be opposed to.

I would suggest more SF's that gives other rewards other than pool C drops. The heroes have more TF's available to them, which gives more potential for pool C drops.

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B) Salvage
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Agree and /signed

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C) Pool A and B recipes Same problem as salvage. I recommend the same solution with an increase in the lower tiers and a slight decrease in tier 3. Data mine for appropriate figures.


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Why a decrease in tier 3?

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D) Pool C and D recipes
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Quick TF/SFs like Katie Hannon and Virgil Tarikoss are run to rapidly gain a recipe while excessive TFs like Dr. Quarterfield give an identical reward giving rise to complaints of risk vs. reward. Since time is the real currency in CoX this is a valid complaint. There is also what is perceived to be a large amount of “junk” in Pool C that makes this time balance even worse.
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Solution Task force “tokens”. These would be salvage.
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A certain number of tokens would get you a random roll on the TF rewards pool exactly as if you had clicked on rare recipe at the end of the TF/SF.
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These longer TF's that heroes have can make the difference between the hero and the villian market. All of the heroes TF's that are available are needed for badges, and that is a good enough reason for people to run it at least once on their toons. They are also good ways for people to team up with others and know they will get a decent team instead of the common PUG where everyone wipes every 10 minutes. If more SF's were added villian side to promote this more, there would also be an increase in Pool C drops.

As for the solutions, It pretty much gives more than one Pool C recipe for completing a TF. I'm not sure it would be a good idea to give more than once recipe for completing a TF. Depending on how it would be implemented, Tokens vs. number of missions maybe, it could be exploited to where someone can figure out which TF gives the most token vs. the time it actually takes to complete and just solo it via. dual boxing. Some TF's can actually be solo'd on the hero side effectivly as well.

I have two suggestions instead of the tokens, the first would be to increase SF's villian side to bring it up to the same number of TF's heroes have.

The second would be to eliminate some of the "Junk" you mentioned, and base it off the number of missions on the TF. It would make the selection process a little more difficult when choosing Pool C recipes though, but allow people to remove recipes from the Pool C drops available for the longer TF's to create less randomness, or just be able to remove allt he recipes the nobody wants. If a TF has 20 missions, allow them to remove 10 recipes from the random list. If the TF has fewer than 5 missions, don't allow the players to alter the list. It will give more incentive to run those longer TF's for a chance at a better drop.

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E) Teaming Penalties


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Agreed and /signed

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F) Power leveling
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Solution – code drops so that drops received are based on actual player level rather than mob level. If the team is clearing out carnies for example the level 50 would be receiving prophecies and spirit thorns while the side kick would be receiving lament boxes and luck charms the side kicked/lackeyed player would also be receiving level 10 recipes worth a couple hundred inf rather than 100,000 inf.



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Agreed and /signed .... My only concern would be for implementation, as I doubt it would be easy to do.

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2) Lack of teaming opportunities – This is especially prevalent on the red side and a solution would provide more benefit on red side than blue and narrow the gap some more. There have been several good proposals on making teaming easier. I recommend implementing one of them.

3) AT Utility - Going hand in hand with lack of opportunities to team is the fact that stalkers are not as useful on a team while Corruptors and Dominators progress slower solo. Master minds and Brutes work well in both circumstances and account for 2/3s of all villains in play (that is from my population spot checks.) Stalkers need a buff while teaming in PvE and Corruptors and Dominators need a buff while soloing in PvE.


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Teaming is alot harder on red side. Anything that can improve it would be good. As for buffs for stalkers, it is the only villian toon I have. I don't have problems in PvE with him on teams. I can generally take out the heavy hitters in groups so the rest of the teams don't have to worry about it. The only issues I have are when I'm on a PUG that won't let me get into position and say "Ready!"

If the stalker remained invisible to the mobs while the rest of the team attacked, and were unaffect by AoE attacks until he became visible, that would help.


I also think a greater inf sink would help. I posted some ideas for critique and some people posted some other things they would like to see as an inf sink, and at the same time adding more content to the game.

[ QUOTE ]

I'm of the mind that you SHOULD NOT have access to any pve rewards without the fact that pvpers can stop you. Its a PVP ZONE. Period.


[/ QUOTE ]
And the suggestion is to change it. There is no doubt to anybody that drastic changes need to be done to PvP zones. HB's idea is a drastic change, and makes the current PvP system more friendly by adding elements to the PvP system that will add a "You have to be nice or I won't toggle to PvP mode" element to it. The idea is to get rid of the majority of the trash talk and breaking of the rules so people don't get their accounts banned. That is one of the main issues I've seen in the thread Ex created.

[ QUOTE ]

The more I read your response the more its sounds like you just want folks to be able to ignore the glaring zone warning you get about it being a pvp zone.


[/ QUOTE ]

That is exactly what should be done. Move that glaring sign into the zone so people will actually step foot into the zone instead of just passing by the entrance every now and then. Why not move those click contact mission into the zone instead of on the outside and put a flag toggle in the zone. The only thing it would do is increase the population in the zone, and if there a nice PvPers in the zone, maybe an occasional conversation along these lines

PvPer: "You want to PvP"
PvEer: "Dunno, never really tried it"
PvPer: "It's ok. I can help you out, and you don't really lose anything to try it."

would take place. That's the whole goal of revamping the PvP system. That's what we need more of.

[ QUOTE ]

To be able to get badges, nukes, shivans with no risk. Or am I wrong?


[/ QUOTE ]
If a person chooses to use PvE instead of PvP in the zone, the suggestion was to increase the amount of PvP

HB:
[ QUOTE ]

Flagging
<...>
But far more importantly this "clears the decks" so to speak in the PVP zones to add new play content.
<...>
The mood is slightly improved since gross misbehavior can be avoided and there is awareness that potential playmates might have to be talked into participating. Traffic increases dramatically, improving exposure and creating a larger pool of potential players to entice into joining a PVP session.
<...>
This also doesn't "destroy PVP" by any stretch of reality. All those who PVP will still PVP. Those who had thought about it but didn't want to make design compromises for the rest of the game will give it a second look. And those who avoided PVP zones 100% of the time are now free to enter the zone and possibly be invited (or repelled) by what they see to give it a try.
<...>
Bloody Bay
<...>
Mini Game
<...>
In PVE mode, the npc opposition can be made much much harder.
<...>


[/ QUOTE ]

Those are some important issues that he covers in his original post, and ones that I agree with. Things have to be done, and if it's not these ideas, then it will need to be others.

[ QUOTE ]

Or simply remove all pve rewards from the zone and make a new zone with all the pve rewards in them. And then make REAL PVP rewards which you get from pvping.


[/ QUOTE ]
I don't agree with removing PvE content from PvP. It would ruin Sirens Call (I've seen a few people post that they like the current mini game conflict with Long Bow and Aracnos).

[ QUOTE ]

How about they add to the ovbserver mode in that you can't see b-cast either or talk? Basically you You can only see what the players are doing and what powers they are using. Also add a PVP attribute type window that you can click on any two (or more) players fighting and see what powers they are using as they use them in the zone.


[/ QUOTE ]
Removing broadcast does nothing to curb the current atmosphere of the PvP zone, and eliminates the observer from asking questions about PvP. Only adding an observer bot doesn't actually get them into the zone. A reason needs to be added to improve the overall atmosphere of a PvP zone and peoples attitudes in the zones.


A point I would also like to add, basically about the flat line of increase in growth, is that the PvP environment is losing people as fast as people become interested in it because of the environment. When looking for an MMO the first thing I check is to see if they have a PvP system. The best PvP system I've seen thus far is the system WoW uses. Not necessarily the PvP/Non-PvP server, but how they actually have it set up, being able to zone into instances with PvP, and they have PvP zones chocked full of PvE element. That PvE element in the PvP zones is what needed. The one MMO that I really tried to like, but just couldn't was D&D Stormreach. They made a joke out of how a campaign can run, and had no PvP/Controversial elements to the game.

I don't want CoH to toss PvP to the way side, and start making advancements to the PvE system (blasters shooting while held) without any regard to the PvP system. But if they do something, and it doesn't work, that is exactly what will happen, and that is when I will start looking for a new MMO.

[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
I am a long time MMO player, I have played at least a dozen and a half MMO's, PtP and free, and have recently settled with WoW and CoX. In WoW, I have not become a PvP god, but I have become pretty dang good, with my 70 hunter and 70 warrior in relatively unimpressive gear. In comparison, in CoX, I entered PvP with my DM/SR stalker, and with top of the line IO's, I was being beaten at every turn in Warburg. I had players seeing me in hide from 200 feet off. I was being hit by players 95% of the time even when they had fear double-stacked, 3 sets of the auto dark de-buff stacks, and I had focused fighting, agil, dodge, and hide, all of which normally has me as untouchable. In PvE, I am almost god-like, I am only hit 15% of the time, with no de-buffs on the enemy, with de-buffs and a couple purples just in case, I have solo'd Miss Liberty and Ms. Liberty. I enter a PvE zone though, and people hone in on me like no tomorrow. I am not kidding, even watching duels and letting people know I am watching the duel, people who are sitting side-by-side with other villains, will immediately pull a boulder out of the ground to hurl it at me, even though I am almost outside of the range of ranged attacks. The one thing that has saved me is my choice of teleport as a travel power. I go into PvP in zones higher than Bloody Bay, and people can see me at sniper range. BALANCE IS A LIE IN PVP (Just like the cake). I may have done decently in PvP if I had chosen a secondary that wasn't super reflexes, which would have possibly done just as well in PvE. But I sit and get killed in 3 shots in PvP. Repeatedly. The only kills I get are when I attack people who are already engaged and are distracted. The only kills I got fairly (if you could say that) were in bloody bay. I will hardly say my PvP strategies are fool-proof, but after playing WoW, which in my opinion has some of the best PvP, and becoming a consistent top-3 ranking PvP'r in all forms on the score-board, and then going into this game, where the accepted strategy for stalkers is my preferred hit-and-run strategy, I must say, even the so-called mighty PvP AT's are brought low by a single wrong power pool when confronted by good ones. People talk about how OP'd stalkers are. Well, we only are in groups, because other-wise, we get demolished. Tankers, scrappers, controllers, blasters, only defenders have been unable to kill me, and that in large part is due to my choice of teleport. PvP between WoW and CoX may not be entirely similar, but when I am destroyed even though I have like +50% defense and can hold a -70% acc on the enemy because I still get hit 95% of the time, it irks me. Also, those who say you need to be rich to be good... well, your standards for rich must be pretty low, I have all lvl 35 or 30 IO's and still another mill left over just from lvl'ing 1-33 in SG mode the whole time and despite forking over 300k to a friend so he can buy some stuff. And now I feel an urge to kill stuff in WoW for the first time in a month. I also have the feeling I may have gotten off-topic and ranted there... oh well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well dude I have a problem with your logic here. You are assuming that a good PvE Build is the same as a good PvP build. It can be, but its not always. So as great as it is that you killed Ms. Liberty and Miss Liberty, that doesnt mean anything in PvP. Also, you are complaining about how the other people could see you. That is because they chose powers with +Perception. They sacrificed powers that could have made their damage or their survivability or their team play better so that they could see you. I hate to break it to you but not every player enjoys getting Assassins Striked in the back while they are typing in a PvP zone. That is why they make sure they take powers like Tactics or Focused Accuracy to see you coming and kill you. And before you start complaining AGAIN, theres a way for you to fix it. Take Stealth. If them sacrificing a power to see you is such a big deal for you, then sacrifice a power to make sure they CANT.

I will agree that the PvP in here could use some work, but the fact of the matter is its not the devs fault that you didnt choose a good power. Its yours, and its easily fixable problem too (respec anyone?). PvP is different here than in WoW, and please, next time you have a problem with something, think about how YOU can fix it instead of complaining to the devs that its THEIR fault.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll put out that my last post was relatively off-topic, rant-ish, and otherwise bad, likely due to it being 3 AM, having just been killed before I could get within placating distance dozens of times, and also being relatively irritable for some reason I can't quite remember at this point yesterday. However, one point I feel should be put out there, is how under-powered SR is, even with the number of +defense things and -acc skills going, it would make sense that the target should at the very least not be able to hit me as often, especially considering I have all my defense skills with 3 +def lvl 35 IO's in them. And it is true that I should pick up stealth. However, I will agree that it is horridly imbalanced. Seriously, its frankly embarassing that with a set based on not getting hit, you get hit as often as some other builds, such as regen. Now, I don't have my final secondary, so who knows, maybe it will surprise me. And I will say, yes, my character is relatively powerful at PvE, however, at the very best of times, it is all luck, I need to hope that I don't get hit, in solo'ing the Liberty family, I was one-shotted on four separate occasions. I get one-shotted by Tank Swipers. Now compare this to say a resistance-based stalker set, and they get hit for a substantially lower amount, and that amount is identical in PvP. Now for another set to take out the liberty family with the same primary, all they would need to do is triple-stack fear, an easy accomplishment, and pop a luck or two at the start to help out. They go into PvP, and while all those -acc reducs don't do much, at least they don't die in three hits from a tanker, those attacks namely being hurl boulder, heavy mallet, and stone mallet. Now, lets take into considertation something different, say a warshade, now I only have experience with these guys in bloody bay, but I feel it should be said now, they are easier to push over than an AFK defender, at least in my experience with them, which is not much. I go into a fight against them, take next to no dmg, despite the lack of no resistances, and proceed to a slaughter. Now, I have no idea how they are in PvE, but considering I have yet to see one on any of my heroes, my guess is they aren't the most popular. Now, lets look at the scrappers. Say claws. Its low dmg, but a fast recharge, and a commonly resisted dmg type. Has two ranged attacks, one cone, one single target. Now, compare this to spines, which has decent dmg, toxic and lethal dmg, a slow, multiple ranged attacks, and a long ranged, -fly immobilize, a threat for all non-teleport capable players. Now, look at kinetics in comparison to say trick arrow for defenders. I once watched a duel between a... something scrapper and the defender in Warburg, the defender just ran around doing siphon speed, siphon power, and fulcrum shift. It was almost comical. The scrapper could not get near the defender to land an attack. Well, I take that back, he hit her once.... for 30 dmg. Now, lets switch again, to dominators... wait, can we even talk about balance here? They have difficulty solo'ing PvE, something I have not had with any other AT. They are decent with domination, but... how do you get domination in PvP short of fight NPC's for 5 minutes ahead of time? Or spending about 30 seconds throwing spells at heroes without it up, in which time you will likely die unless you run off. Tankers now, actually, nah, I don't have enough experience at fighting them with every imaginable dmg type to find out which ones will actually hurt them. Blasters... well, so far I have met ice, and archery in PvP. The archer was easy to kill, and the ice... well he owned everything in sight. And from what I understand, archery can hardly hold its own in end-game being a very commonly resisted dmg type. Controllers... well... the illusion does dmg at least right? I remember playing this in the issue 1 days, having 3 sets of fire imps at a time, now they are down to 1 set of 3, so I am going that not even the famed fire controller does much dmg anymore. Masterminds... well it depends, once more we see imbalance in power sets. A ninja/dark MM can stealth, has two powerful heals, good burst dmg, has debuffs out the kazoo, has a hold, has a fear on top of the pet fear, and with bodyguard mode and said heals, is IMMENSELY difficult to take down. In a one-on-one duel against any /dark MM, I would likely bet on the MM. I once decided to attack a merc/dark MM. He had all his pets on defensive and wasn't paying much attention. I popped 5 enrages, build-up and AS. He went down 1/3 in health, I proceeded towards unleashing every attack I had and got another 1/3 off. I was using siphon life to heal myself, but I was still going down, 1/2 health. Then he noticed me, popped dark fluffy, healed himself, had fluffy heal him, and he was back to full. And then I got feared and couldn't do diddly squat, minus the teleport I just barely managed before a likely death. Now, compare this to say what a /trick arrow or /traps MM could do. Hmmm. Nope, can't do trip mine, detonator maybe? Acid Mortar? Glue arrow? In honesty, the answer is, not much. Now, the argument of 'Well, they are godly at PvE' can be used, except in the case of /Dark. They are godly at PvE, and a pain in the rear to get the dmg to kill in PvP, and with the right primary, can likely kill any attackers with relative ease *cough* ninjas* cough*. Now, this doesn't hold true for ranged opponents, but then you get ranged primaries for all-around ownage. Now, before you say it was just me being a nub, which is likely true, I saw a corruptor, a blaster, a tanker, and a scrapper all of good builds attempt this mastermind. They all ended up quite dead. Would a /traps MM do anywhere nearly as good? I severely doubt it, in fact, I think each of the attackers would have killed this MM if that had been the case. Now, if you somehow see a semblance of actual balance in the above, feel free to inform me. Also, I do apologize for how... rant-ish, off-topic, and otherwise poorly written my first reply was. However, I hardly consider stalkers 'gods' of PvP as some like to portray them when people with the right skills can see them, even when they do have hide and stealth running at once, since I saw some of the most well-known stalkers on my server get taken down not far from me several times from blasters/tankers. Also, it is nigh impossible for a stalker to take down a tanker one-on-one if the stalker is alone and hasn't hit the dmg cap and happens to also be EM. At least high-end it is. Also, in an actual response to Meris608, I mentioned that other secondaries could do just as well in PvE, while far surpassing SR in PvP. What I could see happening is making it so that SR has a 'forced' miss area where it heightens the number 'rolled' for the auto-miss, like say with Agile and focused fighting, increasing the number from up to 5 to up to 20. Hmmm, now to hope this didn't become a rant/off-topic when I get up tomorrow and check it. I should stop posting so late at night when I am irritable and tired. Meh.

[/ QUOTE ]

OMG! MY EYES! THEY ARE BLEEDING!

[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
Flagging
[...] Consider if one first had to speak to the zone mission-contact and click "switch to PVP mode" in the menu; only then having the 30 second timer begin. This would have an immediate salutary effect on zone behavior since players can choose not to become a target and if someone wants to play with them they will have to entice them. Potential new players also have freedom to explore the zone, ask questions, and make observations without constantly looking over their shoulder or falling prey to outclassing bullies seeking easy "rep" points.
[...]
In practice: the PVP-mode would remain off when one entered a PVP zone.


[/ QUOTE ]

Red flag. Despite the other good points you made in your obviously thoroughly-thought-out post ... Standardised response commencing:


[u]#3: PvP-OFF flags for PvP zones[u]
Once again: this is an unbelievably STUPID idea.

But once again, to rebutt at greater length: while I have spent most of this post trying to keep PvP out of my PvE ... I must, in all fairness, point out that the PvPers should not have their little corners of our world watered down in any way. There is absolutely nothing in any PvP zone that you MUST have (inane villain Accolade requirements included, much to my own dismay).

When you enter a PvP zone, you consent to be attacked by other players. The big sign out front, the obnoxiously-loud klaxon sound, the big-red-number countdown ... if these don't manage to clue you in, then to be perfectly honest, and perhaps rudely blunt: IMO you're too stupid to breathe ... so please, stop.

Leave the PvP out of our PvE, indeed - but don't try and take the PvP away from the PvPers, either; fair's fair, after all.

Thus, a third time: NO, THANK YOU.


[/ QUOTE ]

You're turning into a broken record, Pax. His idea is valid because it is an integral of a much larger system. Yes, implementing a flag system by itself would be unbelievable stupid and would worsen an already bad situation. That, however, is not what he's suggesting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pax didn't read his post, and his post was a copy paste job he uses to critize anyone who suggests changing pvp.

That post that you are refering to (pax's post) doesn't deserve the effort to be read.

[ QUOTE ]

Not quite sure what you're getting at here.


[/ QUOTE ]
I'll see if I can help you understand.

Ex Libris:
[ QUOTE ]

I am disheartened lately as I get messages from members of the COH gaming community about issues and behaviors that are happening within the PVP community. Issues that are causing people to reconsider their involvement with our game. I don't see how this issue isn't an issue of the game being broken any more than the arena crashing. Previously with the arena issues, there was a feeling of instability, a feeling of not wanting to participate as it wasn't worth the effort. It wasn't fun.

So how do we "fix" this problem, because it is hurting your community and I cannot continue to allocate resources to a community that has an underlying "failure to thrive" issue. There are a dozen other "Mezzo" groups within this game and many of them have communities that foster growth.


[/ QUOTE ]

The statement is self explanitory and straight forward. Why bother taking PvP changes into consideration when there are other things in the Co* community that can create an income of players.

In a later thread,
Ex Libris:
[ QUOTE ]

I am confronting the issue, that is the best way I know how to address an issue like this. I have a lot of great ideas that I would like to submit for improvements for PVP but in order for me to do so and be taken seriously, the community has to be viable.

To be considered viable in this industry it has to have a populous that is consistent. For each new person that comes to PVP in our game we lose people to PVP in our game either from natural flow, banning, or people that quit from griefing. It isn't as simple as "ban them all, let the individuals sort it out." This issue is affecting your community's viability.

The PVP community while it may appear to be getting new members is losing numbers at a similar rate, therefore the growth is not quantifiable.


[/ QUOTE ]

Again, it's self explanitory, and the inevitable outcome is obvious. If you were a developer, and you were losing people from your game due to PvP, what would you do?

Later, she continues
Ex Libris:
[ QUOTE ]

People that continue to break the EULA will be removed from the game, perhaps not as quickly as some of you like but it will happen, but this removal along with the natural flow is causing the PVP Community to appear as though there is no new growth.
<...>
I have heard from you all as a community that COH/COV has the potential to be the best PVP experience in the MMO space, and you wonder why the developers don't allocate more resources. Most of that is because your community doesn't show significant enough numbers to warrant more resources.

What growth you do gain as a community is lost in the numbers you all lose in banned accounts and people that leave over grief issues. So the feedback loop continues to play out the same scene.


[/ QUOTE ]

She continues on, and you can look through the thread yourself, Here

It boils down to, why bother with the PvP community in Co* if it doesn't get any bigger and keeps losing the game players.

Now here's what you said
[ QUOTE ]

from what i can tell, the core of the game is PVE with PVP


[/ QUOTE ]

Judging from what Ex is saying, they want to remove the PvP from the issue, so they don't lose players that they have gained through interest in the game, again, if you are a developer, and you are losing people from the game due to an issue (in this case PvP) cut it out, and you won't lose people anymore.

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I don't game the market and i don't PVP but my subscription is not at risk because of my lack of participation in those areas, doesn't mean the devs will stop work on them.


[/ QUOTE ]
Your subscription isn't the issue here. What HB is referring to is .................
Is the current PvP system that is in place earning its keep for people who use it for their $15 a month, and is it earning it's keep for the developers. Obviously, the answer is a no. Again I will state, if you are a developer, and you are losing people from the game due to an issue, get rid of that issue.

[ QUOTE ]

If you prefer to call it splitting hairs that's fine


[/ QUOTE ]

I think when he said that it's hair splitting, he was referring to your comment that he quoted being hair splitting.

[ QUOTE ]

but i believe having player interest but limited participation in an area means to me that the devs would want to work on it more


[/ QUOTE ]

Go through the comments I quoted from Ex, and go through the thread, and see if you still think the Dev's want to work on, or completly get rid of PvP.



To Ex Libris

I strongly feel that HB has some great points, and would enjoy many of his ideas for PvP. To the issue that the community has behavior problems when it comes to PvP, I totally agree, but with a flagging system properly made, I can see that issue go away. If a PvPer wants a PvEer or another PvPer to fight, I can't see the PvPer trying to taunt the person into fighting. At least not with the community we have now. It would more or less force people to have a kinder attitude. I particular like the idea of HB's bank missions in sirens call, and I think every zone should have a mini game where an instance is involved where there is no PvE, and make that the *warning no flag* area and have the toons PvE build present, and make the current PvP zones flagging. Another option would be to kill zone broadcast so heroes can never see villian chat, and villians can't see hero chat, but keep it allowed in local.

[ QUOTE ]
I wonder if all the PvE content were removed from the PvP zones, how many people would still go there for the pure desire to fight a living opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't PvP, and would eventually look for a different MMO that has a better PvP system. Even though PvP isn't the only thing to an MMO, a good MMO will have PvP. I have yet to see a good MMO without PvP. One that comes to mind is the D&D one, which I really tried to like, but just couldn't.

The system needs to be changed, and although that is an option, it is one I wouldn't want to see. Yes, PvE/PvP toggle could be exploitable, but not as much as it could be if implemented correctly. What I mean by that is making it so you can't toggle the flag anyplace else other than a contact inside your respective base.

I've stated this in some previous posts, and I still think the best solution would be to have both. Make the zones PvE/PvP, and add the merits, but also add to each zone a game where villians and heros can enter a mini game, and join a que. After an elapsed time, or when a maximum number of players is reached, everyone in the que zone into an instance, and participate in some mini game, whether it's capture the flag, king of the hill, hide n' seek, or whatever that has no PvE element to it. This wouldn't classify as a new zone because it's an instance. Everyone on the winning side receive merits, and the losing side receives merits, but less than the winners.

This is just a random post for thanking everyone posting on this thread for keeping it civilized and constructive. I feel that this is an issue that needs to be addressed, and thank HB for coming up with such a great idea and topic for discussion.

[ QUOTE ]

PvP-ers would have to glow at a distance of one mile to even find one another among the PvE crowds. And convincing a PvE player to turn on the PvP flag... Not likely to happen often.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think the unthinkable would happen .......

PvPers will be NICE to each other! *gasp*

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Siren's Call

The "hotspots" would still appear on the map and be active, but "control" of the hotspots would not gate access to the zone temp powers. The temps are accessed with merit-alikes and the hotspots merely serve to let all open-zone free-form PVPers know "where the fight is". Players of appropriate faction in either PVE or PVP mode could buff npcs of their own faction, but the npcs are so weak it really would be pointless and if they did, PVPers could just shift their fight 50 ft so they're out of aggro range to ignore the attempted "griefing".
All the play types that are currently in the PVP zones would still be available.


[/ QUOTE ]
With respect, that still ends up marginalizing the SC play type that I enjoyed - Villain PCs and Arachnos vs. Hero PCs and Longbow. So not quite "all" of the current play types would still be there. I think you're writing off the NPCs a little too lightly. Back when I was winning the zone for villainy, I didn't just fly in and laugh off a Warden, 2 Officers, and 5 Nullifiers, with assorted minions to the tune of 8-12. I had to use Arachnos as a shield. And when a hero or heroes showed up, things really got interesting. Some flag-off Defender strolling in with his AE heals and buffs would completely destroy that scenario, and the only balancing factor (the Defender's personal vulnerability) would be off limits.

Don't get me wrong! Again, your system would add a lot more than it would take away! I just think you're going a bit far saying that absolutely nothing would be lost.


[/ QUOTE ]
As I haven't actually done that, I can't speak to your specific criticism and you may have a point. I considered it an unnecessary bit of finageling. If that's not the case then leave PVE-flagged characters unable to buff npcs of same faction and still targettable by npcs of unaligned faction.


[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps you could take the same solution you take in RV, but only with these particular groups of spawns, and be unable to attack/buff any of them until you enter PvP mode.

[ QUOTE ]

"Merits", as in 'citation for Merit', is a character and roleplay specific name associated with military activity in the Vanguard. I'm looking for something similarly appropriate.


[/ QUOTE ]
Virtue Points, Value Points, Warrent Points, Commendation Points and that's all I can come up with .... pick one

[ QUOTE ]

[ Bloody Bay
If they should decide to start on the zone mini-game, they should probably get a team together (regardles of AT). Whether they do or not, from a great distance from each rock, a Shivan Decimator spawns along with a coterie of Devastator bosses. The shivans will not leave the immediate vicinity of the rock and thus cannot be taunted away; nor will they remain aggroed on another if a player "attacks" the rock with the spoon.


[/ QUOTE ]

Stealth FTW. I'm able to get to the rock, and collect the sample. I become temporaly visible for a few seconds, but not long enough to zip away without taking damage. A soloution to that would be to increase the time needed to collect a stone sample, and the respawn rate of a new stone coming back?

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I think you missed the entire point of the OPs post. This isn't about making improvements to PvP for PvPers, but making it more accessible to those that may not nessesarily have considered PvP for whatever reasons.

[/ QUOTE ]

by further breaking pvp for pvp-ers?

[/ QUOTE ]

Judging from this post, and Ex's post on the other thread, I assure you, things will be done with PvP. If they go HB's route, it will improve it. Otherwise, You'll have to go find PvP on a different MMO, cause it looks like they are gonna scrap it all together. I like PvP in this game, and would hate to see it tossed aside.

[ QUOTE ]
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Here's a thought, keep the flagging to toggle between a PvE and PvP build, or when you enter a PvP zone in instantly toggles to your PvP build. Instead of coming in from a chopper, or in a street like sirens, you enter into a base like in RV for all zones. Add some type of terminal screen/hi-tech gadget in the bases which allows you to view other heroes in the zone, would be seeing things from their perspective. They would be safe inside their base, and there would be no PvE toggle in the zones. Just off the top of my head.

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Again, that would eliminate the rationale for adding PVE content using pre-existing zones (i.e. making PVP changes pay for themselves). It would also prevent the influx of traffic to the pvp zones. People could "go to observe PVP", but still that is a pvp-centric activity instead of having PVP ubiquitously to-hand to catch when a whim might strike someone.

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Yes, but I'm trying to compromise with people saying don't add toggling between PvE and PvP to zones

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My main objection is to being able to turn yourself off from pvp in a pvp zone.

I can never agree to that. The warning before you enter the zone is there for a reason.

If you want folks being able to observe in a pvp zone, then make it an "only affecting self" tag. That way they can't do anything till they flag themselves ON for pvp. No badges, no pve, nothing.

And once you turn on the flag you can only turn it off again till you leave the zone.

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Here's a thought, keep the flagging to toggle between a PvE and PvP build, or when you enter a PvP zone in instantly toggles to your PvP build. Instead of coming in from a chopper, or in a street like sirens, you enter into a base like in RV for all zones. Add some type of terminal screen/hi-tech gadget in the bases which allows you to view other heroes in the zone, would be seeing things from their perspective. They would be safe inside their base, and there would be no PvE toggle in the zones. Just off the top of my head.

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excuse me Mr. Superman sir this is a pvp zone... maybe you should change your tights so you can fight here.... Ok first off this is stupid. Before dealing with any other idea the fact that you want to have a pve/pvp mode should have warned you to take your meds. Talk about a open invitation to abuse. FA/EM tanker in pve farm mishs to fuel the money to my FA/EM pvp tanker which happens to be the same toon ?
Without coloring my personal thoughts about stalkers ( and the people that claim you need skill to play one ) Flagging nulls out their effectiveness.
Perhaps a pvp learning zone would be a option but the truth is pvp is a small part of the game as a whole. PvPers are proud of the work involved in making a pvp toon. I like many others had to take my lumps and ask questions and take the ridicule while learning and I still have a long way to go.. I personally hope the Devs file this idea in the also ran dept.
If you wanna dummy it down or make it cheap and easy then this is the idea to go with. Personally implementing the duel modes would not only make me retch I would have to cancel my subscription and go play elf bowling.

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First an attitude like that is going to make alot of people laugh at your ideas, and ignore you completely .... Welcome to the forums.

Second, regardless of what the developers decide to do with PvP, something will happen to it. It will be revamped with more PvE element to it, less PvE element, or they will do away with it completely. I for one would rather see more PvE element to it so the people who don't like the PvP zones will go to them. If that means flagging, or dual builds, which one of the developers who posted here likes, then I'm all for it.

I don't want to see PvP get thrown to the side, and not be taken into consideration, or have it done away with all together. The fact is, when the created PvP, they could have done a much better job in creating it.

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but the truth is pvp is a small part of the game as a whole


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And that is exactly why PvP needs to be revamped. If they use even a few of HB's ideas, I have no doubt it would increase PvP participation. I've said it before to, but I would really enjoy mini games where teams zone into an instance, and fight for some purpose, wheter it's capture the flag, taking control of key points, or whatever, with no NPC interference, and keep the main zones PvE/PvP and add more PvE to the zones.

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Without coloring my personal thoughts about stalkers ( and the people that claim you need skill to play one )


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Come over to justice, and i'll be happy to kill any stalker you create repeatedly.

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Personally implementing the duel modes would not only make me retch I would have to cancel my subscription and go play elf bowling.


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Bye

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I think something like that would be a good idea as long as there is strict enforcement of rules if a group of people use it to grief.

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That's great, for a small FPS server type setting, largely because the people playing on the server arent' paying for the priviledge.

But who's going to sit around and watch the boot system? Who is going to determine if something's being used to grief, or if there's a legitimate complaint?

Look at how pwople are already concerned about the /ignore_spammer thing. This is like /ignore_spammer times 10.

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Why would they add something like this? You can already ignore_spammer people in pvp zones, and it sends a petition along with the chat log to the dev's. If you start allowing the fate of other players and their playstyle fall into the hands of other players, you will have disasterous outcomes. Just reading some of these threads makes me believe that the CoH community would be lose 1/4 of it's players because they farm or ask for fillers.

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There is no draw for the zones other than PVP. The non-PVP content of the PVP zones consists of badges, BB & WB mini-games (which PVPers do not play), and zone missions which are uniform and boring. If the majority of casual-players in the game are going to consider participating, there needs to be more reason to enter the zones and be exposed to it. The monolithic single-purpose mentality of the zones has failed. The model needs to be more along the lines of a mall food store where in someone walks by with other errands in mind and spontaneously thinks "I'd like to have...a Cinnabon @.@". A high level of traffic is critical for that kind of model. Beyond limiting things that actively repel players (see previous points), there needs to be content in the PVP zones which appeals to a broad section of the playerbase for its own sake

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No.
Remove PvE content from PvP zones altogether. Don't add more, don't make the current options more appealing.

Remove them.

No more missions of any kind.
Remove the XP and drops from any NPC in the zones.
If you want to make a new zone with PvE content that both sides can access, make it a purely PvE zone.


You can't make both sides happy by forcing them to interact.

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100% full agreement. Keep PVP out of PVE and take PVE out of PVP.

IF PVP is a viable, legitimate playstyle, it should be able to stand on it's own merit rather than having to force (OK, I agree people aren't forced, but that's the perception) or bribe players into PVP.

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You are half right. PvP will never enter PvE zones.
You other will NEVER happen. The PvP zones will dry up, and even less people will go to those zones. That is the exact opposite of what is needed. The question is, how do you get more people interested in going to the PvP zones, and HB nailed it directly.

I think it would be neat, and I HB touched on this in is revamp of sirens call mini games, to have an area in the PvP maps, call it a war room, where you can be put into a que to join a PvP battle in an instanced map, and give each zone their own unique game in this fashion and add more PvE into the zones. In addition, while in the instanced games, make it so villians can't see hero broadcast and vice versa for two reasons. First, nobody can taunt. Secondly, you can use the broadcast for calling out strategies.

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And it will drive people who are disgusted with PvP in general away from the game. If people aren't PvPing in PvP zones, it's not because they don't see enough of it out on the streets. PvP in PvE zones will accomplish absolutely nothing other than irritating the hardcore non-PvPers.

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I've been a booster for a Flag system ever since returning from WoW where I was on a PvP optional server. Barring the occasional yay-hoo in the Barrens trying to bait me into a duel it never intruded on my gamplay until I wanted it to. A similarly well implimented system in CoH would greatly increase the vitality of the game for the majority of players.

I pity anyone so emotionally fragile they get the vapors and call for a fainting couch at the very thought of someone choosing to PvP in their vicinity.

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They should not, and I doubt they will, implement PvP into PvP zones. Leave PvP in the PvP zones.