Extremus

Buffs not Nerfs plz.

Bring animation times on T2 down to Fire Blast level and normalise the big hitters like Blaze as well in terms of animation time and you'll have a hell of a lot more balance in terms of what's taken by who.

If they did that, most people would take Sonic/ for PvP in my opinion. Stun>Hold 1v1, -Res>Slow or DoT in Teams etc...

But this is the CoH Dev team, so of course, they'll nerf to the common denominator instead of buff to the standard of the sets that should be the example.

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So you have enough recharge to bring Ball down from 16 seconds to a little 2-3 seconds recharge? I say, i am serious impressed. Ok, even 4 seconds if we take 2 sec for blast/ball animation/effect, we're talking 400% total recharge.

accept, adept, and move on. Like regen did, like everyone with ED did, like basicly every little nerf in the game.

You nearly say it yourself, nrg AR archery and sonic are gimped sets, rooting etc. As Mael says, nobody knows yet what they exactly gonna do with the 2 sets, but if there has to be balance, fire and ice will get hit. At the end, its PvE primairy, PvP is gimped anyway.

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You're missing my point.

but if there has to be balance, fire and ice will get hit

Why? Blasters are underperforming accross the board. Bring the sets in line with Fire Blast.

You nearly say it yourself, nrg AR archery and sonic are gimped sets, rooting etc.

Yes, and making Fire and Ice root more is a sensible way to fix this, isn't it?

If you read my posts, my primary concern is are the animation lengths increasing for Fire and Ice in regards to loss of momentum and rooting, not the new Defiance and if you concede that rooting = gimped then tell me how giving two fluid sets more rooting is a good idea?

(And no, my attack chain is mostly Blast>Ball>Blast>Blaze>Blast>Ball etc... but even still, there's no room for Flares).

Maybe, doubt it, we're not really up to it right now. Half of us are playing other games right now for a change.

... didn't they fix that?

Or is it broken, again?

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Hammer if you're not going to bother reading a few extra pages in this thread why bother going OH HAI ANIMATION CHANGE MUST BE GOOD?

And your FoTM comment is just [censored] retarded, if you don't like the idea of popular sets that's fine - they weren't always that way, but hey. This is a bad change for Fire and Ice Blasters, people will still take them for the Damage in my opinion and the only thing is reduced movement while using them.

If you don't care about the game, kindly stop posting. So what if you're Energy Blaster, big whoop, it's a great change for him, but if you can't look past that to see what it's doing to some other sets that's your problem.

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Unlike you.. caring only for ice? (bitty fire?)

I wonder how all the /regen's fell when they got nerfed SEVERAL TIMES. Probably is just as heavy as they do to ice now isit?

Caring about this game is taking 0,6 sec for granted for the sake of massive buff on the other sets. Looking further then your little narrow street called 'ice/nrg'. Fire remains debateble due the great reduce of flares.

And fyi, i am the 2nd ice/nrg of defiant, so i am 'one of them too'.

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Yes because I'm all about Ice/ when I've got my Fire/Ice and my Sonic/Fire Blasters as well.

I have 3 Blasters at or near 50 and none of them are getting an animation buff, two are getting an animation nerf in regards to Tier2 powers. I don't need Flares in my attack chain - I have enough Recharge on my Fire/Ice blaster to chain BLast>Ball>Blaze>Blast>Ball and so on and you know what? That does me just fine. Flares will still be poor DPE in my opinion even with the end return chance.

And you know what Blasters I enjoy playing most? Ice and Fire Blast - simply because I can bounce around with the pew pew, whereas with Sonic I feel like I'm stuck in mud half the time. I felt the same way when playing Energy Blast and Archery, too.

So trust me when I say this, this isn't about decrying nerfs while we have no hard numbers, this isn't about possibly having damage lowered in PvP. This is about this change negatively impacting my playstyle and enjoyment of my Blasters. Props to those that like the changes, but I don't. I'd like to keep my animations the same rather than have them bought in to line with the lowest common denominator in T2.

Now, as for these animations being tweaked to provide everyone with ability to get use out of the "shoot crappy attacks while Mez'd" Defiance thing - why is increasing animation times helping that on those particular sets? See, I get lowering them, but not increasing.

Oh and for the record, I don't have an Ice/Energy. He's Ice/Elec and one of the first on Defiant and to PvP in general. He was originally rolled as a Blast/Control concept experiment when they announced the Elec APP for Blasters, so really - it wasn't jumping on to a so called FoTM bandwagon.

Hammer if you're not going to bother reading a few extra pages in this thread why bother going OH HAI ANIMATION CHANGE MUST BE GOOD?

And your FoTM comment is just [censored] retarded, if you don't like the idea of popular sets that's fine - they weren't always that way, but hey. This is a bad change for Fire and Ice Blasters, people will still take them for the Damage in my opinion and the only thing is reduced movement while using them.

If you don't care about the game, kindly stop posting. So what if you're Energy Blaster, big whoop, it's a great change for him, but if you can't look past that to see what it's doing to some other sets that's your problem.

Well you know what's [censored]? The animation 'nerf' is just for Blasters. Any Animation for a Blaster in T1 or T2 that's faster than the proposed new standard will be extended to fit in.

For Doms and Corrs... well, they get to keep the short animations.

Source and here too.

Being rooted in PvP is less about animation times and more about loss of momentum, supression aside. This is where my biggest problem with this change comes from.

Click

Looks like we're not getting a Defiance Bar, more... Defiance Icons. =\

Union right now.

Defiant's lazy.

For PvP, take it - it's extra DPS and more than fits in to your ranged attack chain.

For PvE, not so important.

If you're mez'd in PvP you've got bigger problems than being able to fire off Flares or Power Thrust.

Fury style build up? That's not even working on Brutes in PvP right now I don't think, so should be fun.

Increased ranged damage? I like the idea - but that's achievable by IO bonus' now.

Unresistable damage? We had that already.

I'd actually like a Blaster inherent, not another AT's tacked on to us.

Also - this'll affect cast times for shared powersets (Doms, Corrs, Defenders) and for some it will be an even bigger difference - especially Dominators who get the hard hitters like Blaze and Bitter Ice Blast at 38 and.

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Believe what you want, i not even gonna try to explain.

Hopefully all these changes hit with issue 11 live, first my blasters and then dual blades

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I'm pretty sure they won't come with I11, this is a massive change - especially considering the massive uproar going on stateside right now.

The animation times are a buff to some sets, sure, and a nerf to others (and that's what they are - a nerf, in terms of base DPS potential and maneuverability) and hey some will stay the same. I'd much rather the other sets be brought in to line with Fire and Ice for animation and rooting rather than the other way around. I do not like standing still while I'm trying to shoot my attacks off.

As Blasters are underperforming accross the board this seems a little... off side.

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Crazy good? LOL a huge pile of empty air numbers totaly based on something no where near the reality. Trowing around numbers 'so i scare you enough and you say I AGREE!' attemp failed misserby. DPA and DPC, rofl he really tries to be 'famous'.

Making such huge post, such numbers about 1 power, totaly forgeting ratio of 1 power versus the rest of the entire blaster set in damage. No, i serious laugh at that post.

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His reasoning is valid - as has been echoed by other posters in the thread in regards to prolonged DPS.

Also here's a thing RE: Damage buffs.

Blasters were pretty much underperforming Pre-ED too, when they theoretically had twice as much damage (I know mine pretty much did). I don't think just plain damage is the answer here - and hitting your T1 and T2 Primary powers and T1 Secondary is lacklustre in my opinion. It'd work fine at the lower levels, but not as well in the higher ones - just like the current Defiance.

Blasters get Fury? No thanks.

Also THIS post will explain what could happen with the animation changes in terms of Fire and Ice, quoted below.

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You need to be careful here, because I believe you are looking at the DPC (damage per cycle) of the single attack in isolation. True, if you take a power with 1 sec activation, and 8 second recharge, and increase the activation to 1.67, then the cycle time goes from 9 seconds to 9.67 seconds, and its overall dpc drops to 9/9.67 = 0.931, or 93.1% of its original value (about 7% lower).

But that's not what dominates blaster DPS (total damage per second), because with enough recharge, blaster attack chains become full. Once you are using every single second to activate powers, the only way to improve dps is not by using more powers, but by replacing lower DPA (damage per activation second) powers with higher DPA powers in the attack chain.

Consider a power set with 5 powers, all of which have activation time 1 sec, recharge 4 seconds, all with 1 DS of damage. This set can fire these five powers over and over again, with each power recharging just in time to continue the chain, and it does 1DS/sec. Now add 0.67 seconds to the activation times of all the powers. Their individual DPC goes down to 5/5.67 = 0.881, or 88.1% of the original value. Not too bad. But the original chain was full, and now you'll be using powers with less DPA: while individual DPC went down only 11.9%, total DPS went down to 1/1.67 = 0.599, or 59.9%.

Thus, an 11.9% drop in DPC causes a 40.1% drop in DPS. Of course, this is a contrived example, but it illustrates the point: DPC is only meaningful when attack chains are sparce - i.e. you are always free to use any power that happens to be recharged, without two powers fighting for the same execution time. When attack chains are full, DPA begins to take over from DPC as the dominant factor in total damage output.

Its worth looking to Martial Arts for a practical example. Originally, if I remember correctly, TK and CAK did 1DS, and EC did 2.24. The MA changes (partially to "fix" TK) reduced TK from 1 to 0.84, CAK was boosted to 1.64, and EC was boosted to 2.28. On paper, that looks like a win, since TK was reduced by only 16%, while CAK was increased by a whopping 64% (and EC by about 2%). However, MA's *net* DPS went *down* because CAK is slow, and TK is fast, and changes to TK are magnified because of that. Simply put, if you are using it more often, and it takes up less space in your chain, the damage it does will dominate your total DPS. TK was the dominant attack in preI6 MA attack chains, and even a *tiny* change to TK had a disproportionate effect on MA: *no* amount of buffing CAK was likely to reverse the damage done by TK's reduction.

Ice blast is playing the same role in Ice as TK played in MA. Small changes to it are going to have a significant effect, and cutting its DPA by 40% is not likely to be a small change (and some calculations in this thread are suggesting basically that same situation).

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Arcanaville is the crazy good with numbers.

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And to the 2 above, remember from PvE PoV.. PvP is always second

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This has nothing to do with PVP. Animation times can get you killed just as easily in PVE as well. I have Ice, Fire and Sonic blasters, played and deleted an Energy Blaster. I still prefer my Ice and Fire in PVE, even though the Sonic has a better secondary effect. This is all due animation times. This includes the tier 2. I can't stand getting rooted while blasting and seeing some purple boss moving towards me.

I need to be quick on my feet and animation times over 1 second do not help with that at all.

Don't get me wrong, I do like the idea behind the animation fixes, but I don't agree with the proposed animation durations. I'd say 1 second animation for the tier 2 and below 1 second for the tier 1. Maybe like 0.67 for Tier 1.

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^This.

I don't see how this change will stop the entire AT from underperforming or even help lead towards that when it actually penalises some current sets.

It'd be like increasing Fire Armour's S/L Res but lowering Invul's too.

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"and a 1.67 second activation time for 2nd tier powers"

This is a 39% increase to the activation time of fire blast and a 67% percent increase to the activation time of ice blast (according to figures quoted in Mids' designer).

All my fire toons have a great attack chain without flares and this seems to be the consensus amongst other fire blasters I have played with. I can't see why anyone would bother building in a weaker power, just because of the lower activation (although I acknowledge everyone has their own preferences and playstyles).

I won't be looking forward to the increased times for the ice and fire tier 2 powers if this goes ahead.

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This.

It's a [censored] nerf for Fire and Ice DPS at the lower levels and in PvP. If anything buff the other sets to bring them in line.

Flares buff?

Neh, still do naff damage.

Buff Ice plz!

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ofc not you [censored].

but you see. for the pvp troll brigade, if u dont agree with any of them u auto ahve to go arena, its like an unwritten law of theres

except i dont follow the scrawl of retards

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Why would you powerlevel a toon if you dont pvp?

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For the conten... oh, wait.

It has no need for Duration or Acc, so I'm guessing that's why.

It really only ends End/Recharge/Range.

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Hehe I remember when the big supergroups bases tended to be top secret (well most big supergroups were looking at raiding and items of power).

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This.

Good times.

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Since combo system came out, give them a combo ability

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No please.