Electronite

Forget i16. I've been waiting forever for i40! Get off your kiesters, devs!

You can definitely get by without Permafrost. If you're planning on IOs, Hoarfrost works fine with the Steadfast unique and five from Doctored Wounds.

On my Ice/Axe I built up enough global +recharge to build an attack chain without using Chop and Whirling Axe. I am happy with my AoE damage from Icicles, procs in Chilling Embrace, Pendulum, and a properly lined up Beheader. I also didn't take a single ancillary power to avoid as much weapon redraw as I could.

I did take Hibernate, but it's very rare that I need to use it.

J_B: "We would have to be astronomically lucky for the sky to become blue for I16."

BABs: "You're wearing tinted sunglasses. The sky has always been blue, dude."

J_B: "BABs's assertion vindicates my point. Since the sky has always been blue, it cannot become blue for I16."

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I love what KO blow does, I hate how it looks doing it.

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It could stand to have a leg drop added to the animation after the baddie hits the deck.

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Mace gets a KO Blow (Jawbreaker) and a Headsplitter (Clobber).

It's a nice set.

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Same with Axe.

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Awesome power I agree...but the wind-up is very cartoony.

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Part of the charm, IMO. I wish my tankers could eat a can of spinach right before the windup.

Any reason you prefer Hasten/Super Speed over Combat Jumping/Super Jump? CJ will give you a little more defense, which is never a bad thing IMO.

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<pokes head in thread> Anything new....... </pulls head back out>

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Yeah Ace. Positron popped in to say that since the same damn topic has been coming up every week for three years that they're going to actually do something about it instead of ignoring it and wishing it goes away.

And then my alarm went off, I woke up, took a shower and had my coffee.


.

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When you always have the same poster throw the thread off topic and push to that same topic for three years ranting and raving without any evidence at all, I doubt they will listen.

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In J_B's defense, he does bring alot of evidence to the discussion, but it's just almost entirely anecdotal.

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Like twenty seconds. How much faster should tankers be at killing red bosses?

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How fast can Brutes and Scrappers do it? That fast, but occasionally faster.

Mine plays "[i]In A Gadda Da Vida[i]"

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But I want to play Superman, and fie on those who want to play The Question!

FIE ON THEM I SAY!

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I had a Question/Rorschach homage character for a long time. He ideled in the teens because there's no Street Fighting set and DM felt wrong.


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Question learned martial arts from Richard Dragon, so he should be a MA scrapper. At any rate, the Question was a pathetic fighter. Green Arrow* trashed him in Double Date, and he's an Archery/TA defender.

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*fixed that for ya, no charge. I'm pretty sure it was Green Arrow, not Green Lantern (who would be like Positron, only better powerlevel).

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Erm, d'oh... yeah... Thanks.

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But I want to play Superman, and fie on those who want to play The Question!

FIE ON THEM I SAY!

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I had a Question/Rorschach homage character for a long time. He ideled in the teens because there's no Street Fighting set and DM felt wrong.


.

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Question learned martial arts from Richard Dragon, so he should be a MA scrapper. At any rate, the Question was a pathetic fighter. Green Lantern trashed him in Double Date, and he's an Archery/TA defender.

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I wanta salt crystal this thread... :P

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Too many attacks flying around for that.

But I want to play Superman, and fie on those who want to play The Question!

FIE ON THEM I SAY!

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Cages and Stalagmites are horrendous as far as obscuring-the-screen graphics go

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Stalagmites is one of the most innocuous control powers with respect to graphics.

People should be spayed and neutered for using stone cages when in remotely tight quarters (anything with a roof).

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I knew it was one of the two.

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Most of the time, Line of Sight is simply not a problem. In those few situations where it is, Earth Control has both Earthquake and Volcanic Gasses. Requiring Line of Sight is a very weak reason to want to skip a powerful control like Stalagmites. And my experience suggests that you are substantially overstating concerns about poor accuracy.

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I'm sure the defense debuffs in Earth control help mitigate the accuracy penalties of hard controls, but I was soured of the tactic quite early on in my Fire/Kin's career. Unfortunately, Fire Control really doesn't have better options, whereas Earth Control has them in spades.

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If I have a tank on the team, then Accuracy really isn't much of a problem . . . as long as the tank can survive for about 10 seconds or less. I used to use this tactic against +4 foes all the time. As the tank runs in to get aggro, I can lay down Quicksand with its -25% Defense. Then Stalagmites and Stone Cages hit quite reliably.

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I prefer Quicksand + Earthquake in such situations. Not only is it faster, but I debuff accuracy as well and still have no need to move into LoS of my targets.

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And part of the point of not taking Salt Crystals is that I DON'T have any other PB AoE powers. I don't have Choking Cloud or Consume on my Earth/Rad -- don't need them. I have no reason to go into melee.

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And therefore no Earth Controller should have a reason? I've previously asserted that Earth/Rad is versatile enough to accomodate both ranged- and melee-oriented strategies, but you've staunchly maintained that your way is the only way, or the best way, to be effective. I continue to disagree.

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Your snooty response fails to take some important things into account. (a) On a fast moving team, the tank is usually leading the way, plowing into the next group as soon as the last one was finished. I don't need to worry about hiding when the tank takes the initial aggro.

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A fast moving team also implies that spawns are defeated quickly, does it not? If you've got a couple of Blasters or other AoE heavy characters (and there are plenty of builds that fit this label) on the team then the only thing left after the six and a half seconds it takes you to fire off your combo will be a boss and maybe a LT, and in all likelihood you'll not have stopped the Boss from being able to retaliate. This is a good tactic? I'll use VG from safety, target the Boss and then Fossilize him ASAP. If VG is not up, I'll QS+Earthquake, then Fossilize. As I said, on teams Salt Crystals is either a panic button or quick and easy way to help my teammates hit especially tough opponents.

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(b) It takes a few seconds to find a corner, determine the right options and then lay out the location-targetted control power -- activation time is not the only thing to consider. Location-targetted powers take a little longer to activate, since they require an activation of the power and then a point-n-click to determine where the power will activate. On the other hand, the time it takes for the Stalagmites-Stone Cages combo isn't all that relevant. Stalagmites has the stun hit in a very short time without notice to the foes -- after that, they are all stunned and if it takes me another few seconds to lay down Stone Cages, so what? While I do my thing, everyone else on the team is moving in to wipe out the foes. I control any individuals who weren't held with the combo, and by then, just about everyone is defeated . . . then it is time to chase after the tank again.

A good tank knows how to keep a team moving along. He knows when the controller has everything under control so that he can then move on to the next group while the rest of the team cleans up. Maybe you just aren't used to playing with good tanks?

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This tells me that you agree that a 6.37 second combo is not an effective tactic on a fast moving team, sort of what I was saying above. It doesn't take me 5.2 seconds (the difference between Stalag+Cages+Quicksand and Volcanic Gasses) to find a corner, determine options and target the power, but maybe I just have more practice at it.

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I just don't see how you can believe that Salt Crystals is better than Stalagmites. I understand how you could use Salt Crystals as a set-up for VG, but you can do the same thing with Stalagmites without having to run into melee.

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The reason you don't see how I can believe Salt Crystals is better than Stalagmites is, once again, because that has not been my assertion. I didn't even mention the power in the post you quoted.

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I was referring to the overall message in your posts. You said that you dropped Stalagmites and Stone Cages, and argued that Salt Crystals has more merit than those powers.

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I continue to assert that a Sleep+Hold tactic is superior to a Stun+Immobilize tactic for Earth Controllers. That does not equate to Salt Crystals being superior to Stalagmites on its own. It would be refreshing if someone would address that assertion instead of putting words in my mouth, please.

We haven't even gotten into the discussion of graphics. Stone Cages and Stalagmites are horrendous as far as obscuring-the-screen graphics go, but I think that they can be suppressed by other players now, can they not?

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By itself I would rate many powers above Stalagmites, starting with those that can be cast from outside of LOS, such as Volcanic Gasses, Quicksand, Earthquake, and Wormhole. Of those four, three of them (Quicksand, Earthquake, Wormhole) recharge as fast as or faster than Stalagmites, and those same three do not have the accuracy penalty that many other AoE powers including Stalagmites must overcome. That means that, assuming identical slotting, those powers without the inherent accuracy penalty will tend to hit more often, thus applying their desired effects more often, and therefore be more effective than those powers that do have it. Also, Wormhole has a longer duration stun than Stalagmites and can be occasionally used to render a group of mobs null for quite awhile (like teleporting the henchmen around Siege off his tower so the group can focus on the AV alone.)

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I can understand why some would consider Earthquake or other LoS-breaking powers superior to Stalagmites. It depends on the weight you give to the LoS-breaking mechanics. Having both a 50 Ice and Earth Controller though, the power that I find myself opening with more than any other (and really missing on Ice) is Stalagmites, simply because a corner is not always available (especially on outdoor maps), nor really necessary in a group where a tank will be running ahead. I feel that Stalagmites is useful in more situations than Earthquake; of course, both together in one set is even better.

Volcanic Gasses is an amazing power, but the recharge keeps it one notch from being an "every fight" power like Stalagmites. I would still never, never skip Volcanic Gasses on any Earth build. Again, whether it is the "best" AoE mezz is subjective, depending on the weight given to LoS breaking and recharge.

I'm not really familiar with the mechanics of Wormhole, but looking at the stats now I think it would be very viable assuming you are skillful enough to use it both in and out of teams. I'm not sure how hard it is to control the knockback or avoid confusing your teammates when the mobs suddenly port.

Quicksand is a whole other animal. The only Control power I can think to compare it to directly is Shiver, in that it is a powerful debuff that complements other powers better than that it succeeds on its own. I don't consider Quicksand mutually exclusive with any other Earth power; all builds would benefit from it unless they are getting a slow (and maybe some-defense) from somewhere else.

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My experiences differ from yours, having played a Grav/Rad, Fire/Kin, and Earth/Sonic to 50, and having tinkered around on and teamed extensively with a friend who has a level 50 Earth/Rad. I can see the need to resort to a Stun/Immob combination on Fire and Gravity controllers, who are light in control overall, although I respecced out of Crushing Field on my Grav/Rad once he got EM Pulse and Choking Cloud slotted.

Now it may be possible that I am more used to control-light sets, being that my Earth/Sonic is my most recent 50 controller, so I may just be used to playing with fewer control options. Also I learned to despise the Immob/Stun "Ghetto Hold" tactic on my Fire Controller because of the inherent unreliability of the powers he's forced to use (and I follow pretty conventional slotting in both powers and run Tactics.)

To put it as succinctly as I can, if I want to hold a mob, I'd rather find a way to HOLD them and not cobble together an irregularly functioning facsimile of the effect.

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I don't really see why you think Line of Sight is that big a factor. The range on Stalagmites is enough that I'm not usually seen when I fire it off. Since, once property slotted, Stalagmites gets all or nearly all of the foes, retaliation is not a much of a problem. (Besides, if line of sight is such an issue, isn't running into melee to fire off a PB AoE sleep even more of an issue??)

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One example in which I find location-based AoEs to be superior to those requiring you to be within LoS of your target is if a sniper is in the group. If you're going to use ranged powers, the farther away you can fire them off the better you generally are unless you can stand behind a corner or object and still activate the power where you want it. However, if you have other PBAoE powers such as Choking Cloud or Consume, you're going to need to be in melee range anyway, and Salt Crystals can effectively stop an alpha strike in those situations. If you check back, I did say that I would have given the nod to the accepted Ghetto Hold had it been possible to use it outside of LoS. But if you're running a 'high performance' build like Weatherby, I'm guessing you're not fighting blues and greens that you'll nearly always hit. Instead, you're probably facing oranges and up, and anything that negatively impacts the accuracy of your initial attack is a Bad Thing in my book.

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Sure, it is a neat trick to be able to control from around a corner, but most of the time, either the topography or the speed of the team won't let me do that. Most of the time, I find use of Stalagmites+Stone Cages + Quicksand to be a very effective control combo. Tank runs in to draw aggro. I stomp, clap and then throw down quicksand. Maybe a few foes who were stunned aren't caged, but quicksand keeps them from wandering far. Maybe a foe or two who were caged weren't stunned, but they are usually aggroed on the tank. And if I take a shot or two, that's what I have a heal for.

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Wait. You don't often have time to use an around-the-corner power (like Volcanic Gasses, with an activation time of 1.17 seconds) because of "the speed of the team," but you can instead use a combination of powers that take no less than 6.37 seconds to activate?? How can this be? Have you discovered a way to slot the activation times of powers to make them faster than what they start out at? Is your computer moving at relativistic speeds? Flux capacitor??

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I just don't see how you can believe that Salt Crystals is better than Stalagmites. I understand how you could use Salt Crystals as a set-up for VG, but you can do the same thing with Stalagmites without having to run into melee.

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The reason you don't see how I can believe Salt Crystals is better than Stalagmites is, once again, because that has not been my assertion. I didn't even mention the power in the post you quoted.

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Meanwhile, Stalagmites may be the best ranged AoE mezz available in the game based on the combination of several factors: decent recharge rate, reasonable stun duration, and (importantly) the fact that it applies the stun before mobs are alerted to it. If stacked with a second AoE stun (easily available to all builds with the Earth Epic's Fissure power) then entire groups can be quickly eliminated. Unlike a sleep, the stun does not cancel when mobs are stuck or knocked down.

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By itself I would rate many powers above Stalagmites, starting with those that can be cast from outside of LOS, such as Volcanic Gasses, Quicksand, Earthquake, and Wormhole. Of those four, three of them (Quicksand, Earthquake, Wormhole) recharge as fast as or faster than Stalagmites, and those same three do not have the accuracy penalty that many other AoE powers including Stalagmites must overcome. That means that, assuming identical slotting, those powers without the inherent accuracy penalty will tend to hit more often, thus applying their desired effects more often, and therefore be more effective than those powers that do have it. Also, Wormhole has a longer duration stun than Stalagmites and can be occasionally used to render a group of mobs null for quite awhile (like teleporting the henchmen around Siege off his tower so the group can focus on the AV alone.)

Stalagmites is certainly superior to Flashfire, but that isn't saying much.

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Once I got to higher levels, I got rid of Stone Cages and Stalagmites, and never took Stone Prison. Ghetto holds are for lesser controllers.

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Kids, this is very, very, very bad advice. Never under any circumstances skip Stalagmites. And certainly don't try and replace it with Salt Crystals.

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Wow, that's awful. I don't care what you replace it with, you never get rid of Stalagmites. And that's coming form an Earth/TA which is already considered control overkill.

If you can't manage your end enough to use Stone Cages as a means of effective AoE damage, then by all means, don't play with it. Do not offer the bad advice of saying to avoid it however. Yikes.

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Indulge me then. Why is it bad advice to suggest eschewing a power combination that only approximates a hold when both powers hit the exact same targets when playing a set that offers better control combinations that achieve a better result (that being an actual hold instead of a sorta-hold-for-a-few-seconds-please-someone-kill-it-quick?

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I think I see what the problem here is.


My build is made for high performance, high stress, high end teaming content.

Yours is for leisurely soloing.


I'm glad you enjoy your build, but remember that even poor builds can be fun to solo with.

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Congratulations on couching such a condescending, insulting post inside a paper-thin veneer of civility. I'm duly amazed that you can discern the overall effectiveness of a build you've never seen out of thin air like that and display it for all to see. However, I assure you that my 'poor build' has completed the STF and several ITFs as the only controller and I've not heard complaints about a lack of control from my teammates. Perhaps you could do me the favor of reading their minds and letting me know if my impressions of those events are in error?

Thanks in advance.

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My Stone Cages is five slotted. Three Acc/End set IOs and two procs. That gets me good enhancement values and the benefit of procs.

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My Salt Crystals is three slotted. It has no accuracy penalty to overcome. When it hits, nothing moves for over thirty seconds unless it gets damaged. When I solo, the first thing that damages it is invariably Animated Stone, and then its target gets Fossilized by me. Problem over. Forever. I don't have to look around to see who Stone Cages hit but Stalagmites missed, which may not necessarily be the guy Stoney is attacking right now.

Also:

Activation time of Salt Crystals: 1.07 seconds.
Activation time of Earth Control Ghetto Hold: At least 3.27 seconds.

On teams it's either used to stack an additional defense debuff, which means my teammates kill mobs faster, or it's kept in reserve to incapacitate an ambush for a lengthy time until it can be dealt with.

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But I don't understand why you insist that Crystals is better than Stalagmites. Stuns are better than Sleeps, and a Stun_Immob is way, way better mitigation than a Sleep.

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I said Sleep + (other) is better than Stun + Immobilize, and I already explained why. Several times. Is a Stun_Immob better than a Sleep_Hold? Because that's what I'm asserting. Over and over and over and over and over and over. A Stun_Immob is only as effective when all targets and both Stunned AND Immobilized.

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Particularly since this sleep is a PBAoE.

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I've also already explained how this is not necessarily a disadvantage. If Earth's ghetto hold powers could be used outside of LOS, I would concede a small advantage there.

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and unless you do slot for endurance reduction

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Did you completely skip where I said that?

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you can slot them with SOs, common IOs and/or set IOs for end reduction rather easily

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I didn't miss it. I agree that Stone Cages needs endurance reducers no matter how often you use it. I don't consider this advantageous, nor, I suspect, do you.

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And you're still assuming that people are spamming cages, which noone suggested.

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Actually, Local_Man seems to think the ability to spam it is in fact an advantage.

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With proper slotting for accuracy (using two slots or so per power according to conventional wisdom), Stalagmites + Stone Cages is clearly better than Salt Crystals. When you add in the fact that you can add procs quite easily to Stone Cages (none of which reduce its endurance cost) and can fire it off every few seconds, it is even clearer.

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Firing off Stone Cages (or any other AoE immobilize) every few seconds is a good way to empty your endurance bar.

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Given their typical duration and recharge you can slot them with SOs, common IOs and/or set IOs for end reduction rather easily. And you are also using the assumption that if you have aoe immobs you are using them improperly.

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I'm assuming nothing. Local_Man stated proc slotting and high rate of recharge as advantages to having Stone Cages. There are no procs that work in AoE immobilizes that also reduce its high endurance cost, and unless you do slot for endurance reduction, your blue bar will be empty quite fast if you do take advantage of the second 'benefit.'