Electric-Knight

I love just about every single option on here, but I emboldened the ones that I think are just absolutely great!!!!!

Well, I'm only going to speak for myself here, but I have said that the outfit makes me think of brothel ladies (I've also said dancer/singer saloon girls, but I definitely have said and implied prostitutes one or more times). For whatever it is worth, when I say that, I just literally mean that this is what they remind me of and what I think the costume is based off of.
I don't have a problem with those costumes being in the game at all. For the record, I don't have a problem with costumes directly based on a prostitute's outfit being in the game (then again, is there anything that is really specifically exclusive to that profession?).
It's just a costume and fashion is re-purposed all the time. To me, that has zero implication on the costume user/wearer.
My problem is not that the outfit reminds me of wild west prostitutes, but that it is not the gritty, rough and tumble outfit that the males got.
Period, the end, have a nice day... Hehe, that is all I am saying when I say that I didn't like that the male and huge models only got the Gunslinger - man of action - while the female models only got the saloon girl/brothel worker outfit. Hopefully no one feels offended by that. I love everyone equally... until I get to know them... and I have zero wish to offend.

For the record, I don't agree that being offended by the package of costumes (and the costume/thematic disparity) -which is what I and many others have explained many times- translates to being offended by that particular costume on its own. And I know that is where I am coming from. As far as I am concerned, there is not a single thing wrong with anyone using it, loving it, making it... none of that.
I don't think the combination was entirely appropriate, but yippee ki-ay... stuff happens!
Anyone and everyone is entitled to their opinion and I certainly wouldn't lord mine over anybody else's. I will let a company know my thoughts about it (or a friend or anyone I respect) so that they can take that feedback and consider it however they wish. However, unless it involves something insidious and/or leaves others requiring my help, it pretty much ends there (well, that and a ton of further typing, replying, explaining, rolling of eyes, avoiding the trolls and so on, haha).


Well, I haven't said it in those ways and I certainly am one of the first people to recognize (and attack them because) people far too often say stupid things and/or say things in very foolish ways.
However, I will say this...
I've learned, through much patience, what people say may not be translating exactly what they intend very well.
If someone is saying, "there's too much whorish female options", they very well may be intending the same thing that I've expressed - That they don't want only skimpy, frilly new options for females when the theme of the set gave rough and tumble for the males.
Whether or not they directly say whores or not, the meaning/impact that they place on that word may be different than yours or mine or Frederick McToodle's.
I don't get offended by how others want to represent themselves. They tend to do a great job of dismissing themselves without me having to do it for them.
I prefer to reply to people I respect, personally.

I should probably leave well enough alone (too late!), but my personal opinion on this is that someone who feels insulted (remember they feel as though someone did something that was insulting! Don't just dismiss this) very well may express something that you could feel insulted by if you don't agree that the original act was insulting.
In return, they are also free to not agree that you and others have any reason to feel insulted by what they think.
It goes both ways and swings back again for kicks.

Of course, I prefer to work from a position of mutual respect, but sometimes you cannot express yourself and/or stand up for your own beliefs without risking insulting someone else. You just hope it is justified when you believe you have to do it.
I do believe that the combination of the pack's content was poor judgment. It's not a case of forcing child labor to create the content for people, so I really don't care if no one else wanted to agree with me about my complaints and I'd hope no one really felt offended by my opinions.

I, personally, only feel offended by what others say when I feel as though I have betrayed my own good conscience.
If someone tells me that something I am doing is wrong (barring terrible things that follow with legal actions against me, haha), and I don't agree with them, I am not offended. Not from that simple act.
I'm comfortable with my own take on things to both listen to others (you never really know what you can learn) and to be relaxed with what I feel to be right.

My ramblings above this apply here as well.
No matter what anyone else thinks, you shouldn't feel ashamed for it. And I doubt you do. Unless (and I am NOT insinuating that you do) you agree with the complaints, but are repressing it.
So often, we get people voicing complaints, and people complain about those complaints... and then that leads to repeating and defending the original complaints... and then further replies... and, often times, the original complaint gets repeated far many more times than the original complaining person wished to mention their dissatisfaction.

In this particular case, it was not one person, not a collection of friends or a bunch of bandwagon jumpers who voiced similar feedback (including that the outfits resembled those worn by brothel workers). You may not agree with it, but it came from a wide number of individuals and you should respect their right to have their position and feelings and opinions.
There has been a handful of people trying to attack the negative feedback of the Gunslinger Pack.
There has only been a handful of us continuing to reply further, but there were many more who offered the initial negative feedback.
Some few of us are just silly enough to continue to reply...
Honestly, if we don't turn this into ways to solve problems with the economy, we may be wasting our time...

Haha!

A slide whistle EMOTE!


That hat makes you look like an idiot.

Hiya, Captain!

I snipped out other good comments of yours along the same lines, but I understand, respect and agree with it almost in its entirety.
The tiny bit I don't, personally, agree with is that this game mustn't break away from any previously set standards of comicbooks.
Now... please understand that I do want to see it keep the super sexy, even physics defying, element! So, I am not, at all, against that being there.
So, again, we are on the same page really.
I can understand how you are a bit more extreme in your defense of it and I thank you for reflecting and acknowledging it.
I think there is something else we agree on about over-the-top sexy/revealing (or whatever) outfits, even to outrageous degrees... They are not demeaning at all when worn by a person who feels like it is a part of their persona, who wants to wear that because of a multitude of strong personal and individual reasons of their own.
And I never want to see those options stop being added!

I think you can also agree, understand and respect the element of the girl wanting to be a "tom boy" and being dealt the Barbie card.
I think that the Gunslinger theme was one that a lot of such minded individuals could see a victory for the rugged woman archetype.
I really believe that this whole topic of what sort of clothing options should be chosen when making these packs is a matter of considerately catering to both sides at different times... a balancing act.
I do think, as apparently several others have, that they slipped up a bit in that regard.
No big deal, it happens.
And here is the reason why I think that the tomboy crowd (not sure if that is a good way to put it, but I'm pretty sick of this topic anyway and feel the need to use new words/phrases, hehe) should be catered to as well as those who want more extreme female options..
People all like to talk about how the newer costume pieces are better than the old. They have more details. They have higher resolution. Even just being new has its own appeal.

Some characters call for a rugged, utilitarian or maybe even a conservative look. I know as a role-player that you know this!!
Those options deserve to be rewarded too.
It's just a give and a take.
Some people just felt like the balance swung out of whack.
I wish people wouldn't attack other people's opinions. Let each of our individual opinions stand and we'll see the overall tallied result eventually.

If one of those characters was in a group with you who got transported into the Wild West... And there's a chest full of period-fitting clothes to wear in order to blend in... Would you not feel bad for them if they only got a opened skirt and a corset and frills and such, while you and the rest of the boys got good ol' gunslinger garb?
If that female character was a really serious, conservative, not happy about showing that skin sort of person? If it was your sister? Your mother? Your wife?
Hey... some of them, it'd be a funny gag... Some of them, it might not be a single problem... some of them it may be completely WELCOME... But some of them it is just wrong and I'd like to see those types catered to and this particular theme was a great chance to throw 'em a bone while going full-out fabulous and extravagant for the next pack.

Well, I hope it is clear that I never extend any such judgment, if/when I say that something conjures a prostitute to mind, onto anyone.
I honestly am reminded of the legendary brothel ladies with this costume. I can't see how anyone (other than a legitimate saloon hall girl) should take any offense to that.
Maybe it is something to do with how people think about prostitutes? I don't know.
Why is it such an offense, really?
I love Inara from Firefly!
That character is a prostitute.
I don't find that offensive. I have actually spoken with someone who does though... So, maybe that is a factor.
Most people seem to accept her as a prostitute because it is a matter of culture and all that. Fact is, there are legal prostitutes in current cultures in our own world... Within America, even.

I just don't see people connecting that costume with old-time brothel houses as offensive. Hey, speaking of Firefly... isn't that how most of those brothel girls in "heart Of Gold" dressed? I don't understand how it is difficult to understand people making the connection.
I'm not saying it is completely correct/accurate. However, being incorrect and being insulting is different. When it is a matter of opinion though... this issue is even more confusing to me.

Okay, I really wasn't planning on getting things that much.
I will say that I am glad, even among a lot of mud slinging going on now, that we can just speak respectfully even if we have disagreements. I wish everyone could understand that.

I really do feel like several people opposing TechBot's viewpoint are attacking him and others in agreement. They seem to feel like they were under attack. No one wants to undo what others enjoy, they just wanted to let it be known that their enjoyment was being damaged and that they hoped this wasn't intentional nor going to go perpetually untended.

*holds everyone's hands and skips around*
*hands everyone their hands back*

P.S. If you got the wrong hands, please check finger prints and send them to their proper owner. Thank you.

Find somewhere else to extend such platytudes!

Aha!! Clearly the real reason is so that you know who to be nice to and who to be mean to at a quick glance!

Put the person in a fancy tux, top hat and cane and add an aura of dollar bills falling out... and call it the 1% Club!

Oh!! Someone mentioned a great idea for a Titan Weapons option: a long pole... with an animated person tied to the other end to be used as a club!!

Put the person in a suit and tie and call it the Marketing Club for bonus points!

LOL
Sad but hilariously true.

My apologies for not replying to you sooner. I hadn't checked in this thread for a while.
Thanks, Cap'n, I'm glad my words didn't come off as offensive or anything.
And honestly, it's "your community" just as much as it is mine and/or anyone else's, so I have no place telling you how you should or shouldn't approach things!
Still, yeah, I think that type of negativity that we were mentioning can easily turn on us (I'm sure it's happened to me at some point).

Interesting.
Again, as I said in another reply, I do not see people negatively judging other people about this issue.
I think that the default Female Gunslinger outfit greatly resembles the outfit of the Western (capitalized for the Hollywood fictional Old West, because my knowledge of actual fashion for the time is quite limited... although I did actually do a good amount of studying in the time period a while ago) brothel workers.
Actually, I was just thinking, I seem to recall seeing some documentary about modern brothel workers in Nevada where they may have worn similar outfits.
I suppose I can only speak for myself, but any time I've mentioned such a thing it is completely without any disdain for the artists nor anyone that likes (Hey, I LIKE the outfit... funny enough, more than the male's outfit actually) and/or uses the outfit and zero for the character in question as well (as, they certainly do not become a prostitute for wearing such an outfit).
I don't make those comparisons because the outfit is too skimpy. I don't even have a problem with skimpy outfits at all.

I'll just reiterate one more time that my negative opinion of this costume pack (and none of this is a big deal in the slightest! Whoopdy doo, some people don't like the way things were represented in an mmorpg costume pack, haha!) is that I find it disappointing and distasteful to offer the female models only that choice, compared to the more thematic for an action protagonist, and more utilitarian for an actual person of the Wild West, costume offerings that the male and huge were offered.
It just rings of something that I think many members of this community can relate to... girls who want to play outside with footballs or robot toys or GI Joes, but get handed a Barbie Doll and told to go inside.

Anyway, no big deal. Just something that some of us, obviously, all individually felt the need to express. I've seen a good amount of individuals coming to the boards to express this opinion. Some who obviously do not come here often.
I've also experienced a few very mature female friends' (and my wife's) reaction to this pack. I didn't paint my impression of it at all and each of them were rather displeased for the same reasons I have now provided. Some like it. Some don't. Some have an issue with it beyond the quality of the items (honestly, I have more of a problem with the quality, but that has nothing to do with this thread, hehe).
Again, there is ZERO wrong with liking this pack, buying it and using it.
Let's just let our individual opinions be known and move on. No need to attack other people's feedback. People are not coming here as sheep to express some negative feedback just for the sake of offering negative feedback. It's a legitimate gripe in their opinion.
And, honestly, when I look at the images of the two outfits, I can't not see the problem. That's just my take on it though.


P.S. All of that wasn't entirely directed at you, Captain-Electric.
Regardless, I hope it is all read as someone being respectful (with a bit of humor possibly mixed in).

"Are we too late for the doorbuster prices?"





If I am a winner, I permit NC Interactive, Inc. and NCsoft Europe Limited to use my name, likeness, photograph, hometown, and any comments that I may make about myself or this contest that I provide for advertising and promotional activities. I also certify that I am at least 13 years of age and am eligible to participate in this contest.

You know, I failed to mention this before, but I agree as well.
Seriously, I am sensing a quantity over quality approach right now. It doesn't seem like a good idea to me. I'm just me, so who knows if I am right or not, but I like and respect this company enough to mention it (as I have in the Super Pack thread as well).

Nice letter, Snow Globe.

Honestly, I don't understand what the problem is that you are seeing.
Are you referring to the hoola hoop gunslinger belt (the way it is off the character's waist)?
If so... that is just how it is with jackets.
It is supposed to be sitting on the outside of the jacket (people sometimes wore their gun belts over their jackets for access and whatnot... I know... there are no holsters... and it doesn't look right... I didn't make it).
Or is there something else I am missing?

TANGENT...
Okay, someone should go suggest a pole with a person tied to the end of it in the Titan Weapon Model suggestion thread...

Cap'n, I'm finding your approach a bit shocking...
And not just these two posts, there were some more...
Mainly, you came into this thread putting individuals' opinions and feedback down. Mostly by the old method of pointing out that forums-users are very much a tiny majority compared to the rest of the playerbase... And that those speaking up here were just a vocal minority.

We can only speak for ourselves. Frankly, that idea gets abused greatly by people. It is certainly no given that the percentages would be drastically different in opinions between forum-goers and the entire playerbase.

Then you tout your own empirical evidence of female players that you know.
So, our opinions are not good enough vs. the entire rest of the playerbase that does not visit the forums and the female players that you know and are now speaking for.
I am sorry, Captain, but that is just an odd way to take part in this discussion.
I've actually found this thread to be quite civil. It hasn't really devolved into a lot of directions that a topic such as this often leads to.

For whatever it is worth, I know quite a few female players of this game (personally/out-of-game) and they greatly contradict the reports you have given.
So what does that mean? *shrugs*

One other thing, based on some of the notions you have expressed...

Why would a female player's feedback be of greater importance than a male player's in this case?
We can all play male, huge or female, no matter what parts we're equipped with.
We all have opinions, tastes and feelings on the matter. Each and every part of this topic may effect each and every one of us equally.
Claiming that some or all (or whatever your point was in saying that there is an over abundance of male chauvinistic bias in this thread) really seems to me to be unnecessary at best.

I've known you to be of a rather reasonable mind and I can understand if you've grown to find these forums as dens of negativity, but be careful... Those feelings can easily betray you and make you an embodiment of it.

I think I can reasonably speak for myself and say that...
When I look at just the images advertising this pack...



There is a major discrepancy in the iconic archetypes that those costumes bring to mind.

It's no more complicated than that.
If you're okay with that, you're okay with that.
I'm not slamming my desk nor making any legal charges of sexual discrimination... I just think they erred farther than I'm willing to let go without commenting on it.



Just because I am a male shouldn't lessen my opinion, nor the worth of my feedback, on any of that.

Alright, let's not get sappy...

Besides "The Quick And The Dead" being a great movie (seriously, if you like Westerns, watch it! Or if you just like very well done stories... I happen to love how well Sam Raimi makes a film!)...

The above costume is a great example of being like the male costume, but still being female.
The picture above is from when she's being a little darker and serious, so her shirt is closed up a bit more (good or bad)...
But the outfit overall has some wonderful feminine flair while still maintaining the gritty theme.
Purists may not like it, but for a "Gunslinger" or even just a "western" theme for a super hero video game, I think this is a fantastic approach.
I'm not saying that the game should have copied these particular aspects, but the tighter/form-fitting jacket, the flared cuffs, the frills (pretty sure there are more on the back), the tight pants, the fancy buckle and the stylish, well-fit hat and long hair... All great ways to say, this is the female gunslinger outfit... without being overly girly nor demeaning (in comparison to how tough the male counterpart's costume may look).

As usual, you said many things I completely agree with.
I want to say something counter to what you said above, not so much to argue against you and what you said, but because it points to a specific aspect I think to be important.
I don't honestly think that this pack would go without major criticism if it was just a "Western" pack.
I think the problem (beyond the Gunslinger name) is the gender counterparts.
Males get tough, ready to rumble, gunslinger gear and females get saloon girl (brothel lady).

Anyway, just something that some others have brought up and your comment there made me think to post this (although, I think Silver Age Fan has also mentioned this).


I think you are right... He has "GS" on his belt buckle!

Thank you very much for the communication, Zwill!
I certainly understand the packs being seen as a chance for the team to offer some different options. This particular pack was a large misstep in regards to the theme, but I sincerely appreciate the apology from the team.

I am very excited about the last bit you mention about the pre-tinting options!
More options are gooder!!

A Knight pack does not need a Princess costume. Let a princess costume be paired with a prince costume, not with a suit of armor.
Just as a gunslinger for a gunslinger and a common western dress with common western attire...

Honestly, this Gunslinger pack is about the same as if they released a Doctor Pack that contained a surgeon's outfit for males and a stripper's sexy nurse outfit for females.

I have no problem with these female clothing options being in the game, but it shouldn't have been packaged in the Gunslinger Pack or it shouldn't have been the only female options in the Gunslinger Pack. Those are the two options... Including the saloon girl in lieu of including female gunslinger options is, at best, a mistake.

I was looking for a video clip of the Simpsons episode where Lisa is trying to make a doctor doll (at some make your own doll party thing at a store) and the only option for the girl doll is the nurse outfit.
In my searches, I found this excerpt from that episode. While I don't think CoH has gotten this bad, I just thought it was humorous and, sadly, within range if people can't start to understand why this pack has caused these criticisms.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ftde81QNXDY




One other thing...
My personal opinion on the Barbarian Pack is that the only "mistake" along these lines is that the thigh high boots have stiletto (or near stiletto) heels.
I'd like to see the people who designed that and the people who okay'd it to go and explain why those boots have those ridiculous heels to the tough and rugged female barbarian characters of Paragon, Preatoria and the Rogue Isles!

I know someone that has a simple fix for this bug.