Dwarflord

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Well, its no more unbelievable than that focus has twice the range and 14% higher dpa than power burst, the best dpa attack in energy blast (and that's not counting criticals)

[/ QUOTE ]Well... power burst is energy damage, and stalkers had damn better get higher damaging attacks than a corruper!!! And the comment about criticals is rediculous; that is how stalkers are balanced: low health, fast kills

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Actually, I should have compared the stalker version of focus, and I accidentally used the scrapper number. In fact, the stalker version of focus has only 9% less dpa than the blaster version of power burst, which is substantially higher than the corruptor version.
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Funny you should bring up criticals, though. Because you're right: stalkers *are* balanced around the alpha strike potential of criticals. Which makes the fact that focus is good enough that the stalker version even without criticals is more than a match for the nearest blaster analog at least a little eyebrow raising.

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Arcana, you of all people understand that DPA is not explicitly balanced for. Honestly, this observation of focus v. power burst really isn't that suprising given what we know. Maybe novel considering that it might not have been looked at previously, but suprising? Naw.

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Which is one of the most retarded things about how the devs balance powers... Damage per activation time is what gets you the kill before you get killed...and no one feels this moreso than blasters, with stalkers perhaps being a distant second. Still, just about all AT's prefer sets with high DPA attacks and the devs really really really need to recognize this and balance for it.

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Seismic Smash, for example, is pretty comparable. Really, Seismic is actually better than anything but ET, and ET does self-damage.

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Seismic is better than Total Focus? I don't think so. I think it's identical, as is Knockout Blow.

ET is what defines the Energy set just as Rage defines Super Strength. But the real jaw-dropper is ET AFTER you've just unloaded with Total Focus.

Barrage is a fine power. I had it on auto for close to 30 levels. No complaints here.

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Seismic does the same damage as TF and does it quicker and has an equal duration status effect.

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EDIT: Additionally, this change was mostly aimed at the Bloody Bay and Siren's Call levels where Stalkers are so far above any other AT in Kill Count vs Death Count that it isn't even funny. In higher level PvP zones, players have plenty of options of dealing with Stalkers, which *should* force Stalkers to Team more.

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Yeah, and the kill count order is usually:

Stalker
Blaster
Scrapper
Controller
Tanker
Defender
Brute
Corruptor
Dominator

With forum posters wanting stalkers to be barely just above Brutes. :P

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Yup...

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Additionally, this change was mostly aimed at the Bloody Bay and Siren's Call levels where Stalkers are so far above any other AT in Kill Count vs Death Count that it isn't even funny.

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And why is this? Because all the other villain ATs are subpar compared to stalkers for PvP. Villains burst damage is lousy in PvP except for stalkers. So of course stalkers will have more kills then any other villain AT. When two of the villain ATs inherents are hard to impossible to use (fury, domination) people ignore pets of course (MM) and unless, youre fire/rad or ice/rad you wont have enough damage to take on most people (corr). This is more of a problem for the other ATs needing buffs then stalkers needing a nerf.

Why do you think we see so many more stalkers in PvP then any other AT, and yet in PvE all the ATs are around equal numbers?

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QFMFT
(Quoted for...)

In addition, I feel I must point out that this nerf seems fine (at least in how it appears it will work), and I think it was a good way to go about dealing with the problem.

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If you're dedicated to PvP then you'll have Fly and Teleport for Travel Powers


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Nope, Fly is the worst (in general) travel power for PvP. TP is a good secondary, but SJ is far better (for most tactics) than Fly is.

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Heh...Fly+TP is the primo combination for stalkers in PvP. SJ is great for traveling, but not so hot for actually fighting (unless you're an impaling spine-monkey). And if you've never tried a telestrike AS, then you really ought to respec just to try it for a while. Not being there until the millisecond you begin the AS is the best form of stealth. Also, hovering overhead before you make the strike is a form of stealth in and of itself. I've been a telestriker since my first CoV toon (I have 2 L40 stalkers now in addition to a 40 brute) and lots of other people have been joining that camp lately. It's not the most common tactic yet, but it is one of the best ones. If SJ works for you, great. But TP+flight is very powerful when used well together...and it looks like it may be even more powerful once the patron powers come into play. I am, however, a bit irked we didn't get anything like Focused Accuracy...would really have worked nicely for my /regen stalker.

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A Stalker has the same hit points as my Controller. The only way I have the same defense or greater than that Stalker is if he lets me put Radiation Infection on him. Even then, when he does hit me, it is going to hurt far worse than when my Block of Ice or Brawl hits him. They are my only offense

I could put Enervating Field on him, too. That would just lower his damage a bit. Still, I have no chance, even if I get containment every now and then. The biggest number I have seen from Containment on my BoI against an NPC was 60+60 damage (with 3 SO Damage Enhancers). I can do that every 6 seconds, I think. Mostly, it is 60 pts damage against a foe with zero defense, zero resistance and status-effect protection.

Edit: now give me my Jack Frost

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Your jack frost is ready and waiting for you in Warburg and the new PvP area once I-7 hits. When I said the same defense as a stalker depending on spec, I was referring to the opportunity you have to spec in FF or others that give +def or tohit debuffs to your enemy.

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[Dull Pain is only available to Regen and I'm not even going to talk about how gimp that set is as a stalker secondary.

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I'll wager that regen doesn't seem so gimp to folks once I7 comes out and half the heroes are running around with focused senses that blow through defensive secondaries.

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Heh, I'm sure they do. The point is, they die more often than Stalkers, or are you going to tell me that isn't true, too?


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The kill ratio of stalkers is more aligned with blasters while death ratio is similar to scrappers. unless +perception is heavy then most stalkers go down as fast as MMs. =)

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I wouldn't say as fast as MMs. MMs have less HP, no mez protection, and very little defense for themselves.

To my blaster (ice/fire), an MM is two shots with Aim and Buildup. A stalker is 4.

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Explain why a stalker takes twice as many shots to kill when they have very similar hp to a MM... Please don't say defense is an issue when you just hit aim and bu for a +150% (well over 200% if slotted with THBs) to hit buff (although depending on the MM's spec they may have significantly better defense than a stalker. And what does status protection have to do with anything when you're trying to blast someone to death in as few shots as possible?

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Well for one, they don't have similar HP to an MM. They actually have THE SAME AMOUNT OF HP AS A CONTROLLER, DEFENDER, CORRUPTOR, AND DOMINATOR. Why do people keep thinking they have less HP than everyone else???!!! They don't!

Besides that, some of the sets (I know at least regen and ninjitsu have one, not sure about energy aura) have a Dull Pain equivalent that gives them much more HP, near un-buffed scrapper levels.

The only time I two-shot a stalker with my blaster was when he made the mistake of not killing me after AS brought me down to about 5% health. Defiance tore him to shreds.

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I said similar...as in not exactly the same but close. And actually, my dear evolutionary throwback, corruptors have more hp than all the others you mentioned, but less than blasters. the point of my post was to say that stalkers don't have double the hp of a MM...they are actually within about 10% of eachother. Why are you trying to say it takes twice as many hits to kill a stalker? That's just crap.

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Heh, I'm sure they do. The point is, they die more often than Stalkers, or are you going to tell me that isn't true, too?


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The kill ratio of stalkers is more aligned with blasters while death ratio is similar to scrappers. unless +perception is heavy then most stalkers go down as fast as MMs. =)

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I wouldn't say as fast as MMs. MMs have less HP, no mez protection, and very little defense for themselves.

To my blaster (ice/fire), an MM is two shots with Aim and Buildup. A stalker is 4.

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Explain why a stalker takes twice as many shots to kill when they have very similar hp to a MM... Please don't say defense is an issue when you just hit aim and bu for a +150% (well over 200% if slotted with THBs) to hit buff (although depending on the MM's spec they may have significantly better defense than a stalker. And what does status protection have to do with anything when you're trying to blast someone to death in as few shots as possible?

Actually, when someone (who is lucky enough to not be toggle-dropped and stunned) gets blapped and survives long enough to move away from the blapper, the blapper can blast at them from range. Making them yet again even more effective than a stalker. The only risk a blapper takes that is greater than a stalker is when trying to take on an opponent in a group who they do not choose to TP foe to them. Their target has pretty much no chance. So they only have to worry with the remnants of that person's group retaliating...if they didn't bother to use TP foe in the first place. The blapper still has more hp, but less defense (at pre-epic levels), and no status protection. To compensate for the less defense and no status protection, they get more hp and more damage, many ranged damage options for if their opponent flees, ranged control powers to open with or if their opponent somehow manages to flee, possibly a PBAE nuke, and any number of other tools loke power boost or mega-endurance drains depending on their spec.

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On Freedom, ASing pretty much works only on people who started pvp-ing the day before.

The best strategy that works for my sg employs is we call targets and spike them with ranged crits. Much more effective, and it lets me actually use my claws/regen stalker sometimes.

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I am hoping Issue 7 brings a free respec. I want to enable my toons for PVP. It is kind of crazy to have to respec out of my favorite powers in PVE just so I can prevent one attack from one AT. Since I have pretty much quit playing PVE, I don't mind so much.

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Both sides really need a respec. Villains are just now starting to figure out what works well and what doesn't and heroes are having to adjust after years of PvE to a PvP world (assuming they want to PvP)since most heroes used the I-6 respec to compensate for the ED changes...not really to gear them up for PvP that they knew little to nothing about at that point in time.
Now that we know a little of what is going on, and especially with villain Patron pools coming in, a respec is really indicated for I-7. I think with more people having proper PvP-ready builds on both sides, some (not much but some) of the whining will stop and some LEARNING will start...learning how to effectively deal with problems in PvP instead of whining for the devs to change all of them. Granted, there are some changes that need to be made, but me, I like to spend my energy dealing with the things I can change myself i.e. my skill, techniques, build, etc.

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Just be a man (or woman) and don't prey on squishies. You can beat any squishy without AS, Placate or Hide. So, why do Stalkers one-shot kill like an eleven year old? That is all I want to know. At age eleven, they think it is fun and giggle. Adults? Only if they haven't grown up, I guess

Not aimed at you, just any Stalker that preys on squishies. It really is a waist of time. Unless, of course, they are lousy at PVP and can't throw a punch while visible

I was proud of my Ice/Rad PVE build last night. It took two Stalkers, teaming together, one with TP Foe, to kill me. It was a great moment for me. It shows me that I am beginning to catch on to this PVP thing

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I almost never AS squishies...simply because it is MORE DIFFICULT to AS them than it is to TF+ET them. I don't know why you think it's somehow magically better to die in 2-shots that you can't do anything about (squishies will die stunned) instead of 1 shot that you can.

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Actually, I don't think 2-shots are fair either. Blasters can do that from range. I think everybody should have a moment of time they can decide to stand and fight, or run away. If you don't give your opponent the time to decide, you have accomplished nothing, in my honest opinion.

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That's just silly and goes entirely contrary to the point of being an assassin (stalker).

"Hello, I'm here to kill you. I'm a very strong PvP build so I probably will kill you. You now have the choice to leave or die horribly. (Jeopardy theme music cues up) Decision?"

Your chance to not get killed by an assassin comes BEFORE you get hit...not after. If you take away the element of surprise from a stalker, you have gimped them beyond belief and they become inferior to other damage ATs.

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Just be a man (or woman) and don't prey on squishies. You can beat any squishy without AS, Placate or Hide. So, why do Stalkers one-shot kill like an eleven year old? That is all I want to know. At age eleven, they think it is fun and giggle. Adults? Only if they haven't grown up, I guess

Not aimed at you, just any Stalker that preys on squishies. It really is a waist of time. Unless, of course, they are lousy at PVP and can't throw a punch while visible

I was proud of my Ice/Rad PVE build last night. It took two Stalkers, teaming together, one with TP Foe, to kill me. It was a great moment for me. It shows me that I am beginning to catch on to this PVP thing

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I almost never AS squishies...simply because it is MORE DIFFICULT to AS them than it is to TF+ET them. I don't know why you think it's somehow magically better to die in 2-shots that you can't do anything about (squishies will die stunned) instead of 1 shot that you can.

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blasters and scrappers both have higher damage base and caps than stalkers.

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Scrappers don't have energy melee. Of the four with either energy melee or energy manipulation, blasters and stalkers have the higher base, brutes and tankers have the lower base.

And I've already been corrected on the damage cap: blasters, scrappers, and stalkers all have +400% (500% total) damage caps (and I tested that to be sure).

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Scrappers do have Broadsword, however. And a headsplitter crit (has a greatly increased chance of critting over the base crit chance) can 1-shot a stalker. I know because it's happened to me on multiple occasions. EM's big attacks can't crit like that.

blasters and scrappers both have higher damage base and caps than stalkers.

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Regardless, that's not the point. THe point is that Stalkers DO have Energy Transfer, and this Dwarflord fellow is advocating blaster-level melee damage for Stalkers. Do the math.

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I'm not advocating changing anything. I'm just saying if you think that stalkers do too much damage then let's give them the damage of one of the strong melee damage dealers from the hero side. But that's too powerful too...cause they do better damage with better effects than stalkers do and don't have set up for it like an AS. Also, I wasn't wanting my cake and eating it too...I didn't suggest stalkers keep ET if they got blaster melee damage. I was suggesting they get EXACTLY the melee capability that blappers have and maybe substituting another similar melee attack for the short range blast that they all use as a 3rd attack. I didn't say keep stalker EM and just up it to blaster dmg with toggle drops. Anyhow, it is ridiculous and the nerf cries would be even worse...

Heroes have AT's that are better at EVERYTHING than villains have. Best defense? tankers. Best melee damage? Blasters and scrappers Best buffs/debuffs? defenders Best crowd control? controllers Best healing? defenders Best ranged damage? blasters Do you see a pattern here? Yet people still want to nerf stalkers, because they are the only threat to heroes, even though they don't do as much melee damage as the most damaging melee heroes. Now please refute ANYTHING I just said as untrue.

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Where is this risk? What do I care even if I did die, if I can kill anyone I want first? Heroes are the ones who want to have their cake and eat it too. They want their strong builds but want to take away the very few that villains can muster.

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Assuming the highly specialized build and the ideal situation you describe, there is still one great risk: Being stunned. Have you tried this tactic on your /energy blaster?

And again, I don't even play a Blaster, and I don't exclusively play heroes, so stop trying to obfuscate your idiotic argument with partisan bantering. I'm not on a crusade to deprive villains of their "one good AT."

I am of the opinion that EM for Stalkers is overpowered, and that perhaps AS shouldn't drop toggles. Other than that, I'm fine with Stalkers. As to other Villain ATs, they could use a boost here and there. You're ascribing motives to me for which there's no evidence.

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I'm ascribing motives to this thread which obviously do exist as they have been stated and restated countless times. If AS doesn't drop toggles anymore, I want all toggle drops except brawl removed from the game. Heroes have more toggle drops than villains anyhow. If EM gets removed from stalkers, get rid of /EM and /Elec blaster secondaries and get rid of tanker EM, too. The set is either overpowered or it's not.

Definitely other villain AT's need some love though. Everyone plays stalkers on the villain side because the other villain AT's are inferior to the hero ATs. I would LOVE to see more diversity and to not feel like a gimp when I bring out my brute into a PvP zone. Hell, I'd even roll up a corruptor if they fixed their barely-better-than-defender damage and gave CoV a real ranged damage AT.

Blasters don't need nerfed so much as they need changed. Their best option for damage needs to be ranged damage. They don't need insano melee attacks. They need really good ranged attacks. I met an AR/dev blaster who couldn't even overcome my regen rate with dull pain up. I just stood there and let him shoot at me while I politely asked him to leave me alone so I could go to my next mission. He refused, so I killed him. WTH? Blasters should do great ranged damage...I should have had to run. The sad thing is, if he'd been an ice/EM blapper, I wouldn't even have had time to run, he'd have killed me so fast. This game is currently borked and some changes definitely need to be made, but neutering the only viable villain isn't the way to do it.

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Ok so do I get Nova and all the ranged attacks and holds, too? Do I get massive dmg resistance in my epic power pools?

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1. "All the ranged holds" are in one powerset, Ice.

2. Is there a PvP zone available in which people can use Epic Power Pools? Um, no. We don't know yet what Stalkers will have for Epic Power Pools. You're complaining about something about which you have no clue yet.

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If you think blasters have so much better melee damage than stalkers do that we'd have to give up our secondaries as well as our primaries...just to get a ranged AT's melee damage by itself, then you prove my point that heroes are monstrously overpowered and not even stalkers hold a candle to their uberness.

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Blasters incur incredible risk to close to use those melee abilities. If you were to maintain your status protection and defensive capabilities, then you'd get to have your cake and eat it too.

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Ok I build an ice/energy blaster with teleport, flight, fitness (or leadership), and concealment as my powerpools. I hover around overhead invisible until I find someone I want to assassinate. I swap to stealth, Aim+BU+TP down to the enemy with the first of my 2 massive toggledroppers queued. I finish off my 2 to 4 hit attack chain depending on the AT of my victim. This takes between 2 and 3 seconds since villains have such squishy ATs and won't even require me to use a TF. I then have TP queued to send me straight up in the air...or maybe just phase shift.

Where is this risk? What do I care even if I did die, if I can kill anyone I want first? Heroes are the ones who want to have their cake and eat it too. They want their strong builds but want to take away the very few that villains can muster.

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Come on now...I'm agreeing to trade the most offensive villain AT's primary powersets for blaster secondary sets. Surely that's a fair trade, yeah? I mean if our offense is so insane, then just give us the secondary set of a ranged archetype. Surely their secondary isn't better than our overpowered Stalker primaries, is it?

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That's a gross, misleading oversimplification, and you (should) know it. On a powerset-by-powerset basis, anything can be seen to be reasonable. By your logic, why shouldn't Scrappers get Blaster Secondary melee ability? How about Tankers?

And just by the way, Stalker EM does have better melee powers than Blaster EM. The only difference is the damage scale. Could you imagine a Blaster with Energy Transfer? Didn't think so.

All the rest of the Stalker Primaries are based on Scrapper Primaries. See above.

The bottom line is that your Primary or Secondary alone is not what defines your character. And anyway, no one that I've seen has called Stalker Primaries as a whole overpowered. I've seen complaints about two primary-related things here: Assassin's Strike, which in your absurd example you concede, and Energy Melee.

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It's absurd only because the heroes have something more powerful and you know good and well you wouldn't want to face it from the villain side. Energy melee is held by 3 ATs, 2 of which are heroes. Stalkers, Tankers, and blasters. Of those 3, Blasters and Tankers both have higher base damage. Blasters by alot, and tankers by a little bit. Tankers also have more hp and better defenses. If anyone complains about EM, it should be villains.

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I'm not totally reliant on AS. I have 2 stalkers though...a 40 MA and a 38 EM. People are complaining about the attack that takes all of their life and about our stacked stealth. Well I'm agreeing to give it up for blaster damage/melee attacks. No, I wasn't giving up my defenses entirely since I wasn't asking for the Blasters' ranged attacks/AE's/holds/etc....just trading their melee attack damage for mine.

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Fair enough. I didn't see your MA in your sig. Or rather, I did, but I only saw the Scrapper.

Blasters have it rougher than you do, period. They'd still have it rougher than you do, if AS didn't exist. Your request, tongue-in-cheek or not, is silly. You'd have to give up either your defenses, your status protection, or both to get what you're asking for.

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Ok so do I get Nova and all the ranged attacks and holds, too? Do I get massive dmg resistance in my epic power pools? I was trading purely stalker melee damage capability for purely blaster melee damage capability. If you think blasters have so much better melee damage than stalkers do that we'd have to give up our secondaries as well as our primaries...just to get a ranged AT's melee damage by itself, then you prove my point that heroes are monstrously overpowered and not even stalkers hold a candle to their uberness.

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Please oh please just do away with AS and just give my stalker exactly the same melee attacks, damage base, toggle drops, and versions of AIM/BU that blappers get. I would trade in a heartbeat. Just give us a couple more attacks to chain since we won't have the ranged attacks to supplement our melee with and we'll work just fine in PvE too. You can take away stealth stacking too for all I care...just get rid of perception stacking to compensate.

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Are you giving away your status protection and your defenses too?

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Personally I'd be much happier 3-shotting someone in 2.5 seconds with 3 uninterruptible attacks than with trying to line up an interruptible melee range sniper attack that takes 3-4 seconds of time during which I can't take any damage or be hit by effects that don't even do anything to me to even go off.

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Hm, EM stalker. Yeah, I can see why you'd talk as if you're TOTALLY RELIANT on Assassin's Strike.

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I'm not totally reliant on AS. I have 2 stalkers though...a 40 MA and a 38 EM. People are complaining about the attack that takes all of their life and about our stacked stealth. Well I'm agreeing to give it up for blaster damage/melee attacks. No, I wasn't giving up my defenses entirely since I wasn't asking for the Blasters' ranged attacks/AE's/holds/etc....just trading their melee attack damage for mine.

Come on now...I'm agreeing to trade the most offensive villain AT's primary powersets for blaster secondary sets. Surely that's a fair trade, yeah? I mean if our offense is so insane, then just give us the secondary set of a ranged archetype. Surely their secondary isn't better than our overpowered Stalker primaries, is it?

Please oh please just do away with AS and just give my stalker exactly the same melee attacks, damage base, toggle drops, and versions of AIM/BU that blappers get. I would trade in a heartbeat. Just give us a couple more attacks to chain since we won't have the ranged attacks to supplement our melee with and we'll work just fine in PvE too. You can take away stealth stacking too for all I care...just get rid of perception stacking to compensate.

Personally I'd be much happier 3-shotting someone in 2.5 seconds with 3 uninterruptible attacks than with trying to line up an interruptible melee range sniper attack that takes 3-4 seconds of time during which I can't take any damage or be hit by effects that don't even do anything to me to even go off.

Holds can be perma in that they can be chained indefinitely where a new one starts before the old one wears off. I can even perma-disorient someone with my stalkers although I can't really stack to break through status protection to start it like a controller can.

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You only need to see them at greater than 5 feet (melee range for most melee attacks - AS is assumed to be 5 feet). So, only my Katana/SR Scrapper, if I do a respec and get Tactics, can see a Hide + Stealth Stalker. Yet, they don't prey on Scrappers like they do Controllers and Defenders in Siren's Call on the Justice Server.

I guess every Blaster has to have Targetting Drone and Tactics (or a teammate). Every Controller and Defender has to have either Tactics plus a teammate with Tactics, or Tactics and a teammate with Clear Mind. Since these are the ones that Stalkers prey upon (no risk to themselves) So, I guess my Controllers are stuck inside the gate looking for the perfect team

No, I just go and play and die to Stalkers and feel sorry for them because they feel like they can't beat me unless they one-shot me... Any real men (or women) out there willing to even try?

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I don't bother ASing defenders/controllers...and rarely AS blasters. I just don't need to. It's faster to kill them with TF+ET and all their things that would interrupt my AS, don't interrupt normal melee attacks.

And if you're not one of the builds that can see stalkers and don't want to get the powers that will interrupt or reveal them, well then yuo have no business PvPing solo and then complaining about it. A solo dominator can't do much about an energy melee tanker with granite armor and teleport foe/TP self. my stalkers can't do crap about ice/ tankers. Some builds will trump yours...that is the way of PVP.

I don't know what all levels everything is available since I mostly PvP in Warburg, but here are the hero combos that don't involve stacked tactics that I can think of off the top of my head.

1.) First off, Clear Mind/Clarity can stack by itself to see through anything. This requires a recipient for the Clear Mind buff, but all I said was no stacked tactics...not specifically solo.

2.) DA scrappers with CoD and Tactics

3.) /Devices blasters with Drone and Tactics

4.) SR Scrappers with tactics

5.) Ice tankers with tactics

6-99.) Indirect ways to make stalkers visible or interrupt them if they try to attack you: caltrops, burn, ignite, ice tanker pbae toggle, hot feet, all the rain-type area spells, hurricane, repulsion, repel, and 1000 other powers I get hit by but don't know the name for...and those are just the autohits.

Every single AT has ways to either see a stalker solo or to (by theirself) give a lot of other people the ability to do so. Not every build has this ability, but almost every build can be made to include abilities that will help them to spot, interrupt, or reveal stalkers. The most common misconception about stalkers is that you need to be able to see them from 100 yards away to keep from being AS'd. Just keeping moving will prevent most AS's.