Dumok

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Jousting was the problem cited.

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And thats where they went wrong. Jousting was never the problem.

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Seeing as how almost every serious pvp'er slots Swift, Hurdle and Combat Jumping to get very good unsurpressed movement in combat, I have to agree with you.

Jousting is still present. And I have heard no complaints about it since Issue 4.

Many scrappers did not know about the +health being able to be applied under MoG.
Just like many people didn't know Power Boost increased Aim and Build Ups To-Hit bonus.

I know, I fought many many scrappers on test when I4 was on there. I quickly disabused them of the notion that MoG was an "I Win" button. Perma Elude scrappers still spanked me.

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Please don't take offense but did you spend a large amount of time on test prior to I4 being live or do you just read the numbers? I ask because I don't recall ever seeing you back then. Then again, I don't know your alts.

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I've fought perma-elude against perma-MoG. That should answer your question directly. And I still do not know what the tactical difference is between MoG and Elude you are referring to, but not stating. Both require high order tohit buffs to hit through, both have high burst damage as their weakness.

By the time they were made non-perma, though, the days of MoG being an overwhelmingly effective PvP power were strictly numbered.

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Perma Elude scrapper required Sustained Burst damage. (kind of an oxymoron). A Perma elude scrapper keeps his total HP when activating Elude. Even without resistances, a blaster needs to land 3 high damaging attacks in order to defeat the scrapper simply to go thru the amountof HP the scrapper has.
A MoG scrapper however loses most of his hitpoints and rides at the low point for the duration of MoG. Healing does not work on a scrapper in MoG. While at this low amount of hit points, Blasters could defeat the scrapper with one well timed and well buffed Total Focus.

I am sure you are well aware of this already.

There were class imbalances before PvP was introduced. PvP simply brought them to the forfront.

Back to the topic:
I believe the game was intended to have PvP from the beginning. It simply wasn't important enough to add until it was determined CoH was a success.
When CoH was launched it could be said it was a very incomplete game. I remember people complaining about having to pay to beta test a game that had already been out a year.

What I am saying is that in I4 everyone used SS and jousted.

A blasters extreme burst damage was about the only counter to Mog at the time but you needed time to hit BU and Aim. This was difficult while jousting getting the timing just right to land a TF on a SS/jousting scrapper. While a blaster had minimal defenses and only "ok" resistances, which did nothing against scrapper criticals.

Please don't take offense but did you spend a large amount of time on test prior to I4 being live or do you just read the numbers? I ask because I don't recall ever seeing you back then. Then again, I don't know your alts.

^^^ I tried about 3 times to word that nicer but gave up. Any way I put it, it comes out crappy.

Perma MoG was just as good, except while running it left the scrapper at around 10% of his total health.

Yes, Power Boost was nice to use but wasn't neccesary. Aim with 6 To-Hit Buff SOs + Build up with 3 To-Hit Buff SOs+ Total Focus Joust would do the trick against a MoGger. Not so the Perma Elude guys. It would hit and do the damage, but trying to follow up with another high damaging attack before they got out of range or behind cover was nigh impossible. Then the blaster's buffs would time out and the perma elude scrapper would go back to being unhittable.

As for the rest of your post....either I just don't understand what you are saying or it's a dodge.

Your description is more accurate than mine. CoX was most likely "intended" to have pvp eventually, not exactly designed for it.

As for your list of what's all wrong.
Sit down and make a list of everything the Devs did right as far as pvp is concerned. Each power and how it relates to each other power in the game. Then compare that list to what you have above.

Even in the early days of I4 on test, a regen scrapper hitting MoG against any blaster with Energy Manipulation who was smart enough to take both Aim and Build up was a death sentence for said scrapper.
It was the perma Elude scrappers that were killing teams by themselves. Blasters could hit them but not do enough damage in 8 seconds to kill them, especially with all the Super Speed jousting going on.

Not directed at Arcanaville:

I just get a kick out of several people claiming "This game wasn't designed with PvP in mind."

I don't think the Devs were/are that shortsighted.
The very first picture I saw of CoH was a screenshot on a gaming website about this new Superhero MMo coming out. The picture sowed 2 heroes attacking each other.
Also, don't you find it odd how closely most of the powersets performed in PvP when I4 hit test? Don't get me wrong, there were some obvious power differences with some sets, but other than Regen getting nerfed and the redo of how defense works, most other things have been "tweaks".

Sorry, but anyone with half of a functioning brain cell could forsee a "City of Villains" game coming after City of Heroes, and PvP would be a natural development.

My thoughts on why things seem kinda messed up:
1) Cryptic Dev team is not nearly as large as alot of other MMOs.
2) Dev team has a pretty limited budget.
3) Dev team is probably spread thin with the addition of other projects such as Marvel Online and the next "City Of" franchise in the works.

Sorry if this doesn't make much sense, sick and on meds.

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As long as toggle dropping is reduced to where there is a chance that even with a successful hit from a toggle dropping power that there is a chance that no toggles will drop and an even slimmer chance that multiple toggles will drop I will be happy. Nothing should be 100%.

I don't believe that blappers really fear going into melee at all because all I see is blappers charging at any and all visible targets with bonesmasher in pvp. That is not what someonewho is scared to do something would do.

I also do not think the same attack that drops your mez protection should be able to stun you in the same hit. They should at least have to hit you with another hit to do that.

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Since toggle dropping is gong to be toned down by a large margin, it would be nice if instead of it droping random toggles it specifically targets the opponents mez protection, then shields, then debuff powers, then travel powers in that order.

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thats a buff not a debuff to toggle dropping....how about you blappers just fight like the rest of us

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Actually Nate, that is the thing most melee are having trouble with. Blaster are fighting like a melee AT, and doing a better job of it.
Toggle Dropping is going to be toned down. I'll have to see "how" toned down before forming an opinion on whether it is enough.
Some ideas concerning toggle dropping that I have heard and thought had merit.
1) Mez toggles have a lesser chance of dropping.
2) Toggles aren't dropped, they are instead surpressed for say 5-10 seconds, then start working again on their own.

And inspirations are supposed to be used to close holes in your particular AT's build to perform well in both PvE and PvE. I play my tanker as if he was a blaster with no ranged attacks. I use inspirations and avoid alphas whenever possible then hit em when I am at my strongest.

I stand corrected then.
I also agree that alot of PvP fights end too fast. I also agree about stacking Vengeances.

But......
1) toggle drops are here to stay. They may be toned down, but they will remain in the game.
2) Blaster damage is here to stay. It's the main purpose of the AT. Range or Melee doesn't matter. Blaster=Damage.

Maybe some quick tips for melee when fighting blappers might help.

1) pop a BF BEFORE you charge in.
2) Since you have a BF on ya, hit the sucka! Do NOT sit there and attempt to get your toggles back on. A blapper can drop them faster than you can activate them.
3) If you see or hear BU/AIM/PB do NOT charge in face first. You are just asking to get your a$$ whipped. Attempt to avoid the blapper for a few seconds. Then unload on them.

The biggest problem is that many who play melee ATs refuse to alter their tactics from what they use in PvE.

In my perfect CoH world.....
Any poster attempting to nerfherd an AT would have the game lock them out of playing all other ATs but the one they are attempting to nerfherd.

Black Scourge: Do you actually post anything other than "nerf" suggestions? Just wondering because it seems to be all I see from you.

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I just sent a PM to cuppa asking if purposefully giving a player debt is considered griefing. Will update when she gets back to me

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The Devs say - No.

Ultimately PVE mobs in a PVP zones are hazards of a PVP zone. Players do have control (and options) that will prevent them from being victims of the TP Foe tactic.

Regarding being held, immobilized, slept and then being teleported into a PVE mob: griefing? No.

If a player uses TP Foe and teleports another player into a mob, so that their health is reduced, and then finishes them off with a killing shot….griefing? No.

If a player intentionally uses a knockback power (or Repel or Dispersion Bubble) on another player from the top of the roof to the street below where there happens to be a PVE mob, and the player’s presence draws mob aggro and dies…should the player who knocked back the target player off that roof be actioned for griefing? No.

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So in other words....
In a PvE zone I have to behave. No going out of my way to give other playes debt.
In a PvP zone I can? wOOt!

Sorry Cuppa, probably not your decision but..... your post is a griefer's wet dream. Please ask some of the actual people responsible for this policy to bring in a mid 20s level toon into a PvP zone now. I think after a few TP Foes, Hurricaned, KB'd into mobs for only the purpose of giving them debt, they would quickly change their tune.

CK: Don't know you. Based on your posts, I don't want to. I love PvP in all forms. It's a rush. But good sportsmanship is required to get ANY respect from me at all. This you lack by your own words.

To all other saying "Take it to the Arena!"
Newsflash: While participating in a FC within a PvP zone, the players are available to fight. Before FC, after FC and during FC. If they all go to the Arena, guess what? Fewer players in the PvP zone. Less chances to fight.

In simple terms:
15 toons in FC
1 toon not in FC

FC toons leave zone to go to Arena.

That leaves.....1 toon in zone.

Yeah, good solution. pfft.

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Dumok - My M.I.A NRGY/NRGY blaster buddy, WTH are you!?


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*cough cough WoW cough cough*

Defiance= Swing and a miss!

Try again Devs.

Maybe get someone who actually knows how the game is played to come up with the ideas? It would be a start at least.

PS: Out of the 100s if not 1000s of ideas of improving blasters on the forums, and the devs came up with Defiance?

/em boggle

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GoldenAce, how many times do I have to tell you I am not for sale, nor am I your proplerty to barter with?

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Goddess has made so much from the movies, buying her would be impossible. You have to dazzle her ace if you truly want her lol.

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You misunderstand, I am not trying to “buy” her.

Goddess

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GoldenAce, how many times do I have to tell you I am not for sale, nor am I your proplerty to barter with?

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That question mark was at the end of the entire sentence that started with the word WHEN which last I checked denoted a question.

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What WHEN?

But I think I understand why you protest so strongly. Your right, I’ll up the price. Bill (Light Bill) I need 5 luck inspirations or the deal is off.

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Bah to your price - I will offer 10 SO Damage of Magic Origin for the Goddess!!

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Ok, I was really tired when I wrote that, the question was HOW MANY TIMES, but you get the point.
Bloodwynd, thank you for upping the price, it's nice to see that someoen thinks I'm worth more than luck insps, but still I repeat....
I AM NOT FOR SALE!!!!!!!!!!!

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For rent maybe?

(Yeah, I'm gonna burn for that one I realize.)

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There is one thing that I see consistantly happening.

I don't think it's an intentional thing, but it happens.

The Devs make a post about a change they think is nessesary. They seem to do this change with a Fun/risk/reward kinda logic.

Risk in all forms is the spice of life. But a LOT of people don't want a lot of risk. Some folks just want to get on, and beat some bad guys up for the fun of it(I know, something wrong with humanity here).

This seems to be the reason we see so much "Adjusting" to certain arch types. The Thing is, a LOT of us LIKE being a little over powered. A lot of us LIKE the rush of being able to herd large groups of mobs. Some of us LIKE the feeling of power when we can lock groups of mobs down.

The Devs seem to consistantly try to tell US what WE find fun.

I came to CoH becuase it was a combat centric game. Becuase it was something I could pick up and play right away with very little learning curve. It was a screen shot of a tank I think herding a few dozen mobs that got me hooked.

All the other MMORPG's I've tried out(6 at last count) you are more of a 1vs1 combat type. Or at most 3vs1.

You see, being able to go up against 20 minions and win is what I wanted.

In the early game it's 1-3vs1 is the norm. Skilled players can take on up to 5, but most don't till the teens. I expected my ability to handle mobs to raise as I lvled up. I figured if 3-5 in the 1-10 range was good, then at 40 I should be able to take on 40+ and at 50 75+.

Tanks and scrappers seem to be the only ones who follow this. I expected the Blasters/controllers/defenders to have powers that would blossom as they got higher in lvl so they too could take on large groups of mobs. Maybe not 75 or even 50, but I figured that in the 40's a defender should be able to take on 20-30 even con minons.

You see, we start the game feeling like someone's sidekick. We have the potential, but not the experience. As we progressed, I wanted to feel like I'd went from Robin to Batman to Superman.

This game is all about PERCEIVED power. If we don't FEEL powerfull, then we don't have as much fun.

All these "Adjustments" are making some of us feel like we're being lowered back down to side kick levels.

I still dont' see why the devs keep looking at the people who've rushed to the top, instead of the people still back at base camp 1, only 30% of the way up the mountain, and help THEM.

Even if you only brought them up a little, ANY love there would greatly improve the joy in the game for many people.

The devs keep looking at the AT's that are played the most. That lvl the fastest. That Die the least.

Why don'y they look at the AT's that are played the least, that lvl the slowest, that die the most. HELP them, instead of hindering others.

If you lift them up, once they are near the level of the rest, THEN you take down the tanks and scrappers.

You'll have a shorter trip then if you brought them ALLLL the way down to where the rest are now.

Ok. I gotta stop this rambling. In Short, help those who NEED it, those who DESPERATLY need help, not "Adjust" those who don't want it. It whould cause SO much less greif, and build SOO much love for the dev team.

Remember. This is a game. We're supposed to be haveing fun, not screaming in frustration.

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/signed

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Not saying scrappers don't NEED to move in combat, but to compare the neccessity of movement between scrappers and blasters is ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ] Well...it sure is. But I think the point for many of us non-MA scrappers is that when someone makes a blanket statement about blasters needing to move more....I can compare that to my own experience from playing various different AT's, an Ice/El blaster to 20 being one of them...and the statement is not universally true...not even close.

From playing both a D3 and Kin def to 28...when I covince the blasters on my team to sit their shizoid butts down in one place...their mortality goes down to zero and they do more blasting. So from my def's perspective, blasters do a lot of running around out of habit from soloing or teaming with bad def/tanks and it is unnecessary when teamed with competent teammates. So the biggest criticism I have is that the majority of the time they team with my defenders, the frentics is detrimental and wholly unnecessary. The best blasters I've teamed with have sat still. The worst..."Don't tell me how to play my toon!!!!"

From playing my Ice/El...I've hard far far far fewer deaths with that toon than I have had wth either my dm/sr at lvl 37 or my claws/regen at lvl 19. And I don't need to move 1/2 as much as my dm/sr. I move...but it's gross movements..full on retreats or constant back-pedaling.. My scrappers require a lot of precision...my blaster does not. Distance traveled goes to my blaster...number of keyboard inputs for movement, my DM/SR buy an order of magnitude. Until you play a DM/SR without Stamina...you literally have no clue how critical precision in combat is. Blasters dont' even come remotely close to it.

But the topic is silly. Blasters have convinced themselves that their life is by far the hardest. Maybe it is...

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Got myself a DM/SR scrapper without stamina. Names Shadumok, on Liberty server. Much smaller movements in combat to line foes up for Shadow Maul.

Just wanted to add my own experience to this little discussion.

My main is a level 50 Energy/Energy Blaster. And if you were to able to put an odometer on him during combat you would never make the statement that any scrapper moves as much as my blaster.
I may not have as many miles on him in combat as opposed to zone traveling, but the difference would amaze most people.
Without defense, mobility is required for a blaster. Not saying scrappers don't NEED to move in combat, but to compare the neccessity of movement between scrappers and blasters is ridiculous.