Deus_Otiosus

Funny you should say that!

With all the WTFing ITF going on, I brought out my SS/FA/Soul for a couple of good cim romps.

Anything under Bos tier pretty much just melted.

The main issue survivability wise was massed Cim EBs (non-beasts) with their spike damage, which I think is a win for Healing Flames.

But you might have a point on keeping those EBs sapped, I've never actually tried it.

Can you reliably keep an entire mob of Cim EBs sapped with your build? If so, I might consider a respec of my SS/Ela, as that could be pretty promising.

The cast time disadvantage is minor, and FA will most likely out DPS Ela under similar builds with same primaries anyway.


I've been tooling around on my SS/FA & SS/Ela Brutes this week to compare them, and I've come back to say that Burn & FE easily do more for survivability than Power Sink does.

Some mobs, I don't even get a chance to use my PPP AoE. between Burn & Footstomp almost nothing is alive anyway.

I have to say, the two sets are pretty well balanced against each other.

Ela has better across the board resistanes, FA has much stronger DPS potential & AoE capabilities.

For general play, I prefer Healing Flames over Energize.

I don't necessarily disagree with you in the FA vs. Ela debate, but I find the regen/s to not be nearly as useful as simply having the heal up more often.

With similar recharge conditions you can activate Healing Flames 3x as often in comparison to Energize.

This is much more valuable when facing spike damage than a trickle of extra HP per second.


So if you're looking at healing capabilities over time instead of healing per activation - FA comes out on top.


I' pretty sure the End Drain Res in Consume is stackable (need to verify, I could be mistaken).

Ela does have superior resistances & Mob Drains, but dead enemies don't fight back - and FA is clearly superior in kill speed.

The resistances is a win for Ela in my book, but the mob drain gimmick loses to Burn & FE in my opinion.


Ela also has KB immunity in grounded, which is a point for Ela.

I just did the same thing from L1-20 solo on a Mind/Fire dominator.

I focused heavily on the Mind Side, only picking up Flares, Fire Blast and Embrace on the way to 20.

Mesmermize, Levitate, Dominate, Confuse & Mass Hypno from Mind.

Also grabbed Stealth at 6 and CJ along the way.

You can completely control and disassemble small groups, and facing evn most EBs solo is a non-issue.

Most fun I had playing in Praetoria.

Fury makes the base damage comparison to a tank totally irrelevant.

It also directly boosts FA, Burn & FE.

Fury + Soul Drain + FE = Amazing.

Going Brute also grants access to Gloom & Darkest Night (I'd also pick up Dark Oblit).


It's doable even using Scrapper/Brute defense numbers.

Not exactly.

DPS is not something you should really worry about unless you are always seamlessly using your attack chain (AV fight, Pylon Soloing, etc).

For general play, most enemies don't survive through an entire attack chain.

So even though you will face redraw, I think you can still add a nice large PPP TAoE to your arsenal, and will probably do more for your AoE damage ouput than hinder it.

On the other hand, you don't want to try stuffing fire blast, mu lightning or gloom directly into your attack chain.

I like support that remembers it can also deal damage, even if it's less than a damage dealer.

I like to play along side support that does not require a baby sitter.

I prefer to play support that allows for an aggressive offense, so primarily debuffers & VEATs.

At least I'm not the only one.

CJ + Hurdle has gone beyond QoL for me at this point. It's a must have.





Your post, although ridiculous, is actually making the case for me.

Sort of...

Not running, jumping.

The loss is there, but it is minimal compared to the impact on a melee character in terms of their capability to deal damage.

It's not just the moving, it's that most melees will have at best, 1 or 2 ranged attacks and not a full suite of damage dealing ranged options.


Am I really a rare case in that I use "jump blasting" frequently? (Not just on this TF)

Fair enough. Although, if you did have both combat jumping and ranged softcap, I think you would be able to kite these enemies as I described.

Admittedly Ranged Softcap + Combat Jumping would be kind of an odd pairing.

I think Hover might be more the issue here than whether you went for Ranged Def over SM/L.

Hover is great if you have to, well, hover.

I can't stand it personally, it drives me nuts. Combat Jumping + Hurdle provides an amazing level of mobility for minimal investment - and for times I might actually want to hover blast I usually just deal with the penalties and use my Raptor Pack.


That's not to say that Hover isn't good. It just doesn't suite my playstyle and I think for this TF, CJ is a stronger option.

I find RI & EF debuffs provide enough cushion for attacks that do get through, and also help me keep track of the mob I'm dealing with while I'm jumping around.


That's why I use EF & RI on the swords & warriors instead of BM, LR gets applied to BM.


So in this fight my Fire/Rad:

• Debuffs packs of Swords/Warriors with EF & RI and "keeping them occupied" while kiting around the area (I also whittle away at them with RoF & Fireballs)
• Laying down the smacketh on BM's regen.
• Applying a mostly uninterrupted stream of damage on BM.
• Sometimes I can even hop close to someone who needs healing and tickle them with RA. Yeah, it makes me laugh too.
• Veng > Fallout > Mutate people who die for giggles.
• Keeping the whole team buffed with AM slotted for End Mod (although, I don't worry about getting everyone).

Another note: You only need to avoid holds & immobs on BM if you're on a melee heavy team.

If you have a 1-2 Melee + Ranged/Support, with strong enough controls on the team, you are free to lock down BM where ever she feels like having tea and unload on her.

The melee's get relegated to "minion duty".

Correct.

I'm comparing the performance of 2 End State ranged characters, vs. an end state Brute. I spared almost no expense on the Fort & the Brute. The rad was done "relatively inexpensively".


I wasn't assuming unbuffed, but it was brought to my attention that not all squishies are going to be IOd for Softcapped defenses and might also be outside of range for buffs due to having to move so frequently.

I was simply countering that if squishies can't expect to rely on buffs, neither can melees and that without buffs, not all melees can be expected to deal with packs of swords and warriors on their own.


I dont believe the contribution of 'spamming' a single ranged attack does not even remotely come close to the contribution of a ranged damage dealer or even moreso a Buffer/Debuffer who also has ranfed damage as well.

I was then told that melee's should be taking care of the swords/warriors to protect the squishies (which I already do).



Since we're going in circles now in this thread, I'll probably leave it here unless someone provides an interesting new idea.

@Tex, happy to discuss further in PMs if you like.

I'm disappointed...




...that you took your Brute blueside!!!


JK, impressive work. Look forward to your success.

Same. Thank you for keeping it civil as well.


I guess I just have a different idea on tanking and I separate it mentally from what I consider kiting.

Kiting is a tactic I've used in this, and in other MMOs, on ranged/squishy type characters that aren't really designed to go toe to toe with enemies.

It's generally not very efficient in terms of time per kill, but it often allows a solo character to do things they normally wouldn't be able to.

Having someone tank a pack of mobs would be more efficient for killing large groups in this game. If the tank/brute was able to gather all the swords, warriors & BM all into one large pack for a debuff+AoE dogpile - I'd be advocating that instead for sure.

I'm only employing it in this fight because it's a viable tactic to keep packs of enemies off of other characters who don't have the same means of surviving it.


You're right, I do forget sometimes that not everyone shares my play-style philosophy. I generally do not take non-IOd builds onto TFs - simply because they don't allow me to really enjoy the TF at it's fullest.

And the reason I was kiting in the first place was to protect other buff/debuff/ranged ATs who weren't really built for it, so yeah not everyone is capable of that.


Here's the flipside to that.

I also didn't consider until now that other melee characters might not be softcapped as well. I wonder if other people in this thread have.

What happens to melee players who are not softcapped on this encounter?

Now they are both unable to attack BM directly for any extended period of time, and are probably not very suited for dealing with entire packs of swords on their own either.

All of those buffs that earlier in the thread you mentioned squishes might not be in range for? The melee player might not be in range for them either.

How useful is this character?


IMO? Not very. I've seen several melees who were clearly not IO'd and not prepared for this fight spend more than 50% of the encounter face down.


I'd like to know why my Softcapped to SM/L Corr would be considered by some to be an outlier in terms of performance, and yet that's not really considered when we discuss the melee side.
I think there has been a running bias in this thread the melees should be able to take care of themselves. Not everyone has a self heal, not everyone is softcapped.

Kiting is weaker than tanking IMO, even though we don't see eye to eye on the differences between those (yet?).

I don't believe that about the rest of the game on a 1 AT vs. 1 AT comparison - but I do believe that force multipliers when stacked are easily overpowered for most of this game's content.

Stacked buffs and debuffs has got to be a titanic headache for the developers to balance against.

I assume this is why we have the purple patch to begin with.



I don't expect 100% all of the time, and I'm sticking my neck out with this statement I'm sure - but I think that all but the best melee players in this game would be hard pressed to actually get more than 50% of the amount of attacks they normally get off in an AV fight onto BM in this encounter.

Anyone who is not a very mobile player and has less that average timing would probably see that number drop even further.


Except we both know that would make an absolute joke of the entire game.

Can't speak for Demobot but I've had a Fire/Cold Corr on the back burner for a while...right after I finish my Dom.

When's that melee guide coming out? I need more comedy!

I consider tanking to be standing toe to toe with the enemies being the focus of their attention and damage.

The swords don't have ranged attacks, if they're simply chasing you around while you move continuously, you never actually have to withstand their damage - So I was kiting them using CJ.

You can do this with the warriors too, they do have a ranged attack but it's nothing like standing in melee with them. And if you time it just right they spend a lot more time chasing you than they do firing their crossbows.


I never once said in this entire thread that I was tanking them.

I said I was holding their aggro.

It's just a simple hit and run tactic really, inflict damage and then avoid retaliation.



What percentage of efficiency do you think melee characters are operating at?

Nihilii's mentioned 80 to 95%.

From a damage dealing standpoint, I think that's too high.

It's definitely too high against just battle maiden herself.

If you have a seamless attack chain, I don't think you're getting 80% of those attacks in on BM.

I don't have any percentage numbers, I just have my own experiences which tell me that my ranged characters feel much more effective at dealing damage in this encounter than my melee characters.

I never claimed to tank the whole map.

I've never once even used the word "tank"


The final BM fight is in a giant wide open area, this is great for kiting even if the blue patches have to be avoided.

If this fight took place in an enclosed room, you can't do the same thing.

If the enemies all had machine guns, or energy blasts or fire blasts instead of swords with a back up crossbow or no ranged attack at all - I couldn't have done this.

But I didn't think any of that was relevant, because we were discussing this particular encounter.

Well done, and excellent time.



Regardless of what happened, your team was melee heavy and completed Apex in an excellent time frame.

I can't do anything but commend you and your group.



You're correct, I prefer melee play in this game. I still have a select handful of ranged/support characters I enjoy.

My dislike for the TF is not that it's difficult.

It's the blue patches which potentially neutralize the defense half of a melee character, and simultaneously prevent them from bringing their full damage to bear on BM.

I disagree with any gimmick that specifically double penalizes any AT in any encounter.

So while the Blue Patches are dangerous to ranged characters - they aren't double penalized against the AV.



Well said.


No, what I'm saying is that you can keep packs of enemies focused on a ranged character on purpose to keep them off of other characters who don't go out of their way to pull those mobs off you.

I'm sorry, that's as simple as I can state it. If you still don't get it, nothing I say will help you.

We'll have to agree to disagree then.


I go SM/L because Scorp Shield provides so much bang for the buck.

It also allowed me to build for perma-AM & perma-hasten, on that particular build - which wouldn't have happened building for ranged defense.

The rest is all offensive debuffs & fire damage output.


I didn't say you couldn't finish, if you're going join a conversation - at least make some kind of effort to read what's being written.

I know I'm expecting too much probably.

How long did it take your team to finish?

How many deaths did you suffer?

Did you earn an Mo badge that run?






No melee character can ever come close to providing the raw power of a force multiplier.

As for blasters, yes I think it's good for them that they have TF where they get to really shine.

I think it's unfortunate that it required shafting several other ATs to make happen.



Stalkers and Scrappers are damage dealers, if they are unable to properly fulfill that role, they are effectively dead weight.

Brutes are damage dealers as well, but at least they also bring a secondary function of maintaining aggro.


Agreed vs. Clockwork & Warwalkers.

However, they don't provide anything particularly special over anyone else capable of either:

A) Dealing as much or more raw damage
B) Dealing damage + bringing buffs/debuffs/controls to any of those same fights.

The aggro role is only really open to Tankers & Brutes (in terms of people forming teams). A well played scrapper could also make it happen, I doubt they would be selected for that role though.

Sucks to be a Stalker.



We're disagreeing on some portions, but I think we're of the same opinion on team comp.

1 or 2 melees to run interference, the rest of the team filled with ranged dam/support.

That wasn't really my point, I understand how it can seem that way however.

I don't refuse melees and I still play my melees.

My argument is that this encounter does in fact marginalize what melee characters bring to the table.

It's less about why would you take a melee character in the very real sense of purposefully denying someone a spot on the team and more about the metagame aspect of the sheer fact that after bringing 1 decent aggro holder like a Tanker/Brute - you are, mechanically speaking, much better off filling the team with ranged damage & support ATs.

This is also true in other areas of the game, but this particular encounter is on the rather far end of the spectrum.



Fair enough.

And I do think 1 solid aggro holder like a brute/tanker is best, but beyond that - yes you can do it with more melees, but you are also much better off with ranged &support ATs (So much so that the best time I've heard of from people I group with regularly was 21 mins. A Tanker or Brute, A scrapper who spent most of the fight face down, and the rest was corrs/controllers & 2 Arch Blasters that were pumping out RoA like crazy - wish I had been there to see it).

I'm not saying you can't do it, I'm saying that the fight marginalizes what Melee ATs do.



By 1-2-3-4 you must be alluding to the use of an optimal attack chain.

If you are not rolling through your attack chain, you are not doing consistent DPS.

If you have no method of taunt AND you can't roll through your attack chain - you are even less useful.


I welcome you to re-read my posts above and quote where I said I was "tanking".

I specifically said I kept aggro off of other ATs (I didn't specifically mention swords/warriors aggro, but that was in the quote I was responding to)


I'm not sure how you could think that taking aggro is not possible.


I'm not trying to be rude here, but have you ever played /rad?

Rad toggles piss enemies off en masse. Fireballs & AoE attacks piss off enemies en masse.

As long as no one else has pissed off those enemies more than you
then you will have the attention, or aggro, of those enemies.

This is why Tankers & Brutes have a threat component in all of their attacks in the first place. This allows them to generate a level of threat that even a debuff toggle or an AoE attack alone won't overcome or vice versa: it allows them to easily overcome the threat previously generated by said AoEs.


Correct.

Of course, you can just stay at ranged which provides an amazing amount of protection all by itself.

I also think you underestimate the power of SM/L softcap against SM/L using enemies, a self heal, two AoE debuff toggles and excellent mobility in terms of what survivability they can provide.


So basically the only thing we have established is that it would be unlikely for either my Fort or Corr to stand toe to toe in an endless slug-fest with Battlemaiden or her endless waves of party favors.

Of course, I never actually said that's what I was doing.



I'll let you try it, you seem like an experienced player in your posts.

Grab a character of yours that has some fast recharging AoE.

Use it as aggressively as possible against a group of swords or minions that have not been taunt. Let them run to you, move away > repeat.

if you're fast enough, you can also switch target groups and deal with them, or alternatively deal with BM herself. 1 Fireball actually goes a really long way.

Because I've basically already covered this and the rest of your post, I'll just quote myself.



Fortunately for me, I'm skilled at doing this on my Fort, who also pumps out ranged PSI damage vs. BM, and brings valuable utility to the entire team for the entire TF.

Hell, my Fire/Rad Corr is softcapped to SM/L and kept aggro with fireballs, toggles & RoF. It's not hard.



I already covered this.



If you are a ranged character on a primarily ranged team BM should almost never even get close to touching you.

The patches aren't a problem, for me at least. I have combat jumping on every character I play.

I'm sure the fight does feel exactly like you describe it for a lot of players.

Does it feel like this to you?

It felt like that to me the first time, and then never again.

Now it's just a fight, with a lot of jumping involved. It's easily timed, and unless you simply have poor mobility, the swords/minions should never be an issue.


Neither my Corr nor my Fort experiences any of those things - and in fact, I purposefully drew aggro on those characters (because they can take it) to protect other ATs/Players who didn't seem to have a similar ability to defend themselves.

It went, pretty much the same way it went when I was on my Brute - except my brute spent more time taunting, and doing relatively insignifcant damage to BM - a far cry from the normal unbuffed 240+ DPS he normally does.

A Gloom here, a Dark Oblit there, nothing compared to consistently applied damage of either of my ranged characters along with the suite of team buffs/utility they also bring to the team.



Who said they did?

Agreed for all of the above reasons.

I almost considered Spiritual on my Fire/Rad corr, but seeing as AM & Hasten are both already perma, there didn't seem much point.

Going cardiac means you don't have to pick up an end recovery tool and can fully commit to Scorp Shield & be softcapped to SM/L with ease if you so choose.

Just because some people are bad players doesn't suddenly invalidate what I said.



Controllers and Dominators ("I can't mezz the swords?")

Controllers bring buffs/debuffs (hint: these are important), and BMs Warriors are mezzable.

Dominators, can also control the warriors & they bring significant ranged damage for BM herself (important, in case you were wondering).

Blasters ("I'm being chased by enemies with mezzes?")

If you're a blaster and suddenly finding this an issue, and are not spending your energies on bringing a world of hurt from a distance - then you need to find a new AT. Your ranged damage is highly valuable in this encounter.

Gravity/Empathy/Ice Controllers

Can't speak for Gravity or Ice, I don't have experience playing either of those. But Empathy is easily one of the best buffing sets in this encounter. When your entire team can no longer rely on their defenses and resistances, the only thing left they can hope for is healing, regen and HP. (Yes you can carry greens, but empathy grants a level of forgiveness for those few "oops I stepped in blue" mistakes.)

I'll let you tell me why after having at most 1 taunt-bot capable of not sucking, any melee AT makes a better choice over any ranged damage dealer/buffer/debuffer in this encounter.



And just so I can preemptively address any moron with "lrn2play" at the ready:

3 Runs back to back on 3 different ATs (Brute, Corr, Fort), 1 Death total on all 3 runs, 3 Mo Badges Earned - Total of 90 minutes for all 3 runs.

I'm not saying this encounter is hard, I'm saying that it's stupid.

A concern for a player like myself, min/max powergamer, is when a build/character I have has a large part of it either completely marginalized or made useless for an entire encounter.

And I find melee characters are almost completely marginalized on the Apex TF.

Yeah there are a couple of parts where they can be slightly useful, or instead you could just fill the team with the smarter choice of force multipliers who already dominate this game.

Make no mistake, melee ATs are largely marginalized on the BM fight.



Yes, I (me personally) can hop around, yes I can take pot shots, yes I have two ranged attacks & taunt on my Brute, do I die during this encounter? Almost never.

Does it matter? No.

Here's why:

Hopping around like a headless chicken, doing insignificant damage through taking random pot shots at BM or using the one or two ranged attacks you might possibly have is an ineffective waste of a team slot.

I, or any other player whether they will admit it or not, could be wildly more effective playing nearly any ranged AT instead.



So it's one thing for people to want "one" combination to be on top, and quite another for people to be annoyed when an entire TYPE of AT (and not just 1 AT) is rendered pointless for an entire bossfight.

I'll Echo what Claws said.

Brutes do not play like Tankers.


You should try one, and be sure to play the minigame of "Chasing the Fury".

NP, if you want to put up some other build ideas in the Brute forum I'll take a look.


Well, after putting that build together, I was actually surprised to hit almost 140 HP/S.

I think if you focused even more on HP at the cost of DEF & Rech to hit something like 2800+ HP, 160 HP/S sounds very possible.

Sorry for doubting, I hadn't considered the Spiritual Alpha at the time.

Does 2838 include the Spiritual Core Paragon?