Dersk

The alternate animation for footstomp, groundpunch?, is what I had hoped would be done to handclap when/if knockback gets toned down to knockdown... not that it's going to happen. The animation is nice, but footstomp is still foostomp!

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I just don't see any issues with Tanker stacking. I've been on teams with multiple Tankers and it's worked great. I did an ITF with two other Tanks and we'd pull three groups of enemies to one spot for mass destruction.

And it's not just the rest of the team wiping them out- some Tankers have very good AoE damage. That's one reason all-Tank teams are rolling balls of destruction.

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I think the issue mentioned here isn't so much how effective tankers are with respect to the content, but how effective tankers are with respect to other archetypes (which is why I'm in the nerf-it-to-hell camp). Popular complaints about tankers are related to the mode in which they utilize their survivability for the benefit of others (taunt), and how other archetypes and powersets enhance the playing experience and effectiveness of others more than tankers (buffs).

edit: in short, buffs are more effective than taunt, and a lot of people enjoy buffs more than taunt.

I won't question the validity or accuracy of what tankers can do. I play tankers mostly and love doing so. The relevance to the aspect of teaming contribution isn't just what tankers can do, though.

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all ATs have an endurance consumption modifier. Not sure what the raw base is, but make tankers 75% of the base value

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This wouldn't just make tankers last longer, it would put some tankers over a thin line into sustaining their rate of damage, and bring many more close enough to it to not matter. Not that I think that's a bad thing, necessarily, but I think reducing endurance costs and recovery rates, either for particular archetypes or for everyone, at an equal ratio would make lasting longer easier by default without affecting what is or is not sustainable in the long term, effectively making the 100 max end a larger influence in a fight than recovery rate.

As far as provinding leadership-style buffs, I'm just going to reiterate my unpopular opinion that there's already enough buffs in the game, and adding more only makes things worse.

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What is it about Spines that is OP exactly?

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Castle referenced spines having as many as three secondary effects in one power.

Stacking (small) immobilize
Toxic DoT
-spd/rch debuff.

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...If the immobs and slows were removed I'd probably hardly notice. It would be nice if Impale kept the immob though.

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I didn't even know there were immobilization effects in the spines powers outside of impale until castle commented on the issue. I think those 1/3rd magnitude immobilizes, or whatever they are, are laughable anyway.

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Just out of curiosity, if Defenders are given a boost to soloing, will Scrappers have to be given a team-oriented ability to make them more desirable on teams?

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I thought that was the whole purpose to crits. Make them boss-killers. I thought giving that role to scrappers was a [censored] idea, but I'm not a dev.

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2) It would requrie rebalancing of some encounters

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Any content that would be appear to be broken by taunt mechanics being removed or replaced by something that actually makes a small amount of sense is something I'd consider broken already; we simply have beneficial means to ignore the broken parts.

This isn't what you're looking for, but I think (de)buff stacking is a larger concern than making multiple tankers appealing. Multiple tankers still contribute to a team, the problem is survivability is so easily achieved in multiple ways teams that an archetype that utilizes it's own personal survivability for the good of the team is itself redundant.

In the end, such a change won't (probably) alter the situation where min/max teams have no desire or use for a tanker above most, if not all, other archetypes; this will likely only reduce the the magnitude of the "error" in inviting mutliple tanks rather than make them appealing.

But, also, from my perspective on the issue, adequate changes there would be heavy handed nerfs that would have made ED and GDN uneeded.

One interesting tidbit I saw mentioned in this thread was mechanics in another game where someone like the tanker would do additional damage against opponents not actively fighting the tanker (or thier counterparts), giving opponents a legitimate reason to fight the tank type character beyond the AI-hack of a system we have now with taunt mechanics. I would think that, if such an attempt were made to create such a situation in CoH, it would mean multiple tankers would be more beneficial as an enemy obviously can't be actively fighting two targets at once, so there'd always be a tanker inflicting bonus damage on those not focusing on him.

It wouldn't even have to be damage, necessarily. It could be debuffs, controls, knockdowns, or whatever. So, rather than tankers buffing each other, we'd se bonuses if anyone other than the tanker were a target. A kheldian or scrapper grabbing agro wouldn't be quite so bad. A tanker stopping someone from attacking a blaster would be doing something more interesting than grunting.

Ok. That's a long enough post for a threadjack. Sorry

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It's obviously NOT accepted, or there wouldn't be endless threads like this.

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Perhaps I've missed it, but where is someone claiming most defenders solo easier or faster than other particular archetypes? People are shouting that defenders can solo, not that they're universally better at it than any other AT.

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I didn't think I had to spell it out, I was under the impression that you all knew something about the subject.

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You're making it hard to believe you know something about the subject with quips like those.

Most defenders have a harder time soloing than other archetypes. Everyone knows this. It's accepted. They can still solo all content they're intended to be able to solo (everything a single character on heroic can get short of some elite bosses). Buffing defenders suffer disadvantages no one else suffers. They also benefit from advantages debuffing defeners don't.

Point out something you think needs to be achievable by a character than cannot be done by a particular defender powerset combination, and we'll either show you how it can be done or why it isn't intended to be done by all solo characters. You're playing merry-go-round on this type of topic for years because your attempts and citing specific examples shows problems with builds or expectations, not powersets or archetypes.

AAO, RTTC, and invinc overlap as they tick every second, but the duration is 1.25s, or thereabouts.

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Okay, I'll try to pay more attention. Maybe I'm just missing it. I had assumed that it would be like incinerate in fiery melee, and the crit would come at the beginning of the power. Does it not say "Critical" when you get one? I thought that would be hard to miss.

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The power crits at the end of the animation. Incinerate's dot continues after the animation finishes, as does midnight grasp, and most powers with damage over time. Shadow Maul's dot is done by the end of the animation. If you ever kill the opponent before the animation ends, you don't get to see the crit.

A different kind of joke, but... the council's secret weapon

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the problem with it on defenders is that it rewards them for failing at their task.

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When that 5%+ of damage gets through a forcefield defender's buffs, enabling the defender to attack more and use powers like repuslion field and force bubble liberaly, that's a situation created by the defender failing?

I'm assuming you're ignoring the times when it's the other person that fails for the quip.

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Please, by all means, enlighten me as to a method to ensure all archetypes are well-played if a single archetype has as much or more damage than a scrapper and all the survivability of a tanker. How much of a buff would you have to give the other archetypes AND the villains to keep the game both fair and challenging? You can't? How shocking!

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Brute defined. Next question.

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Are you grossly ignorant of the survivability differences between tankers and brutes, or do you just want people to think you are?

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Green numbers are but one of a Defenders many vital uses and one of the only things Vigilance works for, to some degree.

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When "healing" defenders are on a team with damaged teammates, how do they use their vigilance boost? To heal. Wow. How endurance intensive. They can do that all day without vigilance. That's like saying hydrogen fuel cells will revolutionize chainsaws with their efficiency. It just doesn't matter. My empath gets miniscule benefits from vigilance compared to my forcefielders, who can still afford to endlessly blasts and use expensive toggles when people take a hit.

I can spout multiple anecdotes, but my sonic defender is transformed by relatively small amounts of damage, and I can then magically continue to lay on the mutlitude of -res debuffs without endurance impeding me. Otherwise I'm forced to rarely attack, and turn toggles off to rebuff the team. I see so many people complain about endurance, but when a defender's team is placed in even remotely threatening situations that allow those problem to be muted, the endurance cost of toggles, attacks, and debuffs aren't important anymore. It's mind boggling.

Vigilance is in general a crappy inherent, but if you people don't have anything to do but heal when someone pricks their finger, you really need to be more aggressive.

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If you try to take down a white lieutenant and minion standard solo combination, a tanker will surely need to rest if the lieutenant of that combo is a Tsoo Sorcerer.

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I don't have that problem.

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decreasing the recharge of Rest to about thirty seconds

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If any character is put into the position that they need to use rest in 30 seconds because of endurance, even with rest recharging that fast, I don't see using rest that often as fast-paced enjoyable play.

Ill/storm controller. Soloing gets repetetive at the first few levels, but by the time you hit 20 you are a team. You will have a variety of tactics for each situation, multiple powerful but non-essential powers that enable you to overcome any challenge up to and including arch villains, and you'd have to try not to contribute to teams.

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the change I'm proposing is simpler and addresses other issues then just the endurance one.

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I don't think your solution, which applies to damage, recharge, healing, and all the debuffs is simpler (or simple at all) unless you're writing off all effects of those changes outside of endurance management. This would, for example, easily give any blaster with half a wit 50% more damage in the respective levels before enhancements. While I wouldn't complain, it'd also make make defense and resistance buffs much more effective at lower levels, when I'm led to believe their schedule for enhancements (20% instead of 33% for a SO) is to reduce the difference between base low-level values and higher-level enhanced values, which this would directly affect for all those who utilize the new lower level SOs.

Then, the common person that doesn't know how to handle enhancments and power choices pre-stamina, the type of person that is used as "proof" that such an endurance problem exists, would still have endurance problems because they don't understand what they're doing.

It would address the "endurance issue" in favor of those who need it the least.

edit: and that is to say nothing of the implicated effects on IOs, which would either be even more worthless at these levels, or possibly level-50 strength were enhancements to lose their scaling effect as they increase in level.

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Gravity is 'elemental' in nature.

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You mean of the "Earth, Air, Fire, Water and a Curvature In Spacetime Created By As Yet To Be Detected Particles" fame?

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I think the explanation went something like this, paraphrased: "The natural order of the elements places air above water, and water above earth. Objects composed mostly of earth will fall through the air and sink in water until they reach earth, its natural resting location."

It was one of those amusing attempts to describe reality that was so void of accuracy it was unable to produce any useful applications. I don't even recall how they explained floating ice.

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What is it about Spines that is OP exactly?

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Castle referenced spines having as many as three secondary effects in one power.

Stacking (small) immobilize
Toxic DoT
-spd/rch debuff.

I think that, rather than revamp enhancements specifically because of endurance problems, simply altering the rate that characters bleed off endurance would be more helpful. Something like cutting recovery effects, excluding rest, in half, and cutting all endurance costs in half. Characters would then take twice as long to go completely dry with the same build and same playstyle without changing what a character can sustain. Endurance drain powers would need to be reduced as well, but that's the only problem I see.

Endurance limitations aren't bad, they're just on the wrong scale.

The comment was tongue-in-cheek.

There aren't a lot of recovery bonuses available before level 20, Coldmed.

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I also don't know that simply turning off Mud Pots more often will help with overall endurance issues.

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If my stone tank turned off everything that slows him down (either through endurance or speed) between fights, he'd be full on endurance every fight simply from activation times.