Defense_Options

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The Regen Lounge

is now a global chat channel. Please feel free to join. Nonsense welcome, fights not. Nerf-herding will get you silenced.

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I'm not sure if anyone is still in the channel, but we need to remake it if it's dead since they are not going to revert the Global Channels.

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My Global name changed and I lost all my channels so it would be nice to know if it either still exists or has been remade.

I changed my Global name back.

Sure you do. You aren't being disrespectful.

Anyone that goes around calling other noobs is pretty much not show himself to be very informed, espically when it's aimed at someone like SF or EG. Give me a break.

IH as a toggle FTW

(Reduce it's heal rate to 300 and 1/3 enhanceable and I would still love it that much more.)

Here have some beer. Been keeping a cold one around for you.

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Get this moved to Guides so it doesn't get deleted!!!

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I thought it made more sense as a discussion topic here and would draw more attention. I'll make sure this thread or a reposted version eventually makes its way to the Guides section for permanence.

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Board Rules

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Thread/Post Content
1. Post in the correct forum and do not cross-post.


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I'm thinking she is more then likely to get it moved by a friendly Mod though, and that is well within the rules.

Arcanaville I'm not kidding this sounds like a good power to trade in MoG for. Give us that stance too and it would be fun to take and use. Change revive to a passive that does something small, maybe halve the effect of -regen . And you can call it a day with Regen for now.....

I read it and I have to say I am not shocked. I kept thinking I wasn't getting what I expected from Lucks.


Well anyway thanks for your effort in this.

Is that 60% base defense?

I'd take it either way just because. I mean my fire tank has ROtP and I love that.

I used to love taking my Inv/SS tank into the air and battling Sky Raiders back when you could 4 slot hover and actually move at a decent pace. I am still ticked that my hover is so slow I can't use it for a good fight in the air anymore. There was a time my tank's feet never touched the ground for whole levels, but not anymore.

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i love this whole discussion but this has to be the most fanciful conversation that's taken place in either of the Lounges, moreso than even the "create-a-nerf" stuff. I really don't ever see them going back on their stance concerning risk. All this stuff would make soloing much easier and I just don't think they'd ever do that. Situational power has been their design goal for the last 4 rounds of nerfs.

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True but to dream the impossible dream can be fun sometimes. After all we're all just sitting around in this old stinky lounge after all anyway.....

Pass the beer nuts EG.

I tend to agree. In so far as Regen is concerned. I would think Inv scrappers should act more like Inv tanks with protection not resistance. DA I can see either way and same with SR. Regen to me is about taking the hit and recovering, that's resistance not protection. And the whole KB thing would require a boost to defenses because it would play heck with damage output, still it fits things.

Both get hit by a car

Wolverine goes flying but gets up and shakes it off.

Collossus stands and takes it or should it be a tank he gets knocked down and takes a good deal longer to get back up.

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i'll take you one further. do that for all scrappers and tankers. tanks get kb protection though.

then give squishies mag protection and no resistance.


hmmm, then change all toggles to long duration, short recharge, perma clicks.

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You could but why not just have toggles on tanks and scrapper not drop when mezzed.

I have a strange Idea. Take Int and make it an auto power. But remove the defense to status protection and give it resistance instead. However inexchange for that it gets resistance to all effects, fear, slow, everything. But it does loose KB protection. Really does it make sense that because you heal fast you don't get knocked back?

Anyway just a crazy idea.

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QR effectively means that not only does regen have the best damage mitigation, it a priori has - and cannot possibly not have - the best long term damage output. Nowhere in the description of regen do I see that conceptually it must beat everyone on damage mitigation and simultaneously must beat everyone on damage output.


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I see regen as the most constant. It keeps going and going, that's what it does. But with Invincibility Inv has a better tohit then regen thus more damage for as long as it can put it out, and SR has quickness for more damage as long as it can go. Sure regen out lasts them assuming someone runs out of end but in the short run its doing less then the those two. (I just don't know DA enough, does it not have a damage aura and stealth built in and thus also an offensive advantage to start with in fights?)

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The devs have repeatedly stated both publicly and privately that they have no intention of altering QR. I think its because they are afraid of pissing regen scrappers off at this point. Which is good for regen scrappers, and I play regen scrappers, but when that carries more weight than actual material balance concerns, I'm not so sure that's really a good thing.


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Honestly I don't think they fear Regen's rage any. Look at ED and tell me honestly they care about pissing the players off? They don't and never have.

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Give you a hint, though. Suppose integration wasn't so important anymore, and the constant reconstruction clicking went away?


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Take away the constant clicking and I'd be thrilled....not thrilled enough to be happy about loosing QR though.

Will do. Might have to drop a channel but hey it's the regen lounge.

I assume this is were we will plan the talking up of MoG so as to keep the devs focused on it as what needs nerfing.

Cool well if you get a chance I'd love to join that channel as well.

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But the great majority of melee-range damage is smashing, particularly for /Electric and /Energy, and nobody had their defenses cut that much in that department.

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This is false. Lethal/Smashing was reduced a minimum of 33-50% across the board, with some powers being reduced to 1/4 their original resistance.

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Everyone, almost, had the resists to S/L cut. Inv tanks used to be able to cap at 90 with two powers and like 8 slots. Now it takes 4 powers and 12 slots. That's a big cut, Fire can't get near 90 (70 or so is their max.), Inv scrappers can't hit their caps unless using Unstoppable and toggle dropping has no effect on that. DA scrapper can't cap either now yet before they could. Granite tanks can cap with granite + stone skin I believe which before they could do it with granite alone.

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Blasters getting 30% unresistable damage doesn't exactly help villains take down the three toughest melee ATs in the game: Tankers, Scrappers, and Dwarfs. Dominator toggle dropping used to (against the first two at least). But now? Tanker or Scrapper + Clear Mind = God Mode.


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Just to correct things a bit.

Brutes are tougher then scrappers hands down. More hits better resist caps. And why even bring in WD, they can only have so much resists what with ED and if your talking caps well brutes beat them too.

Unresistable damage, unresistable debuffs those are attempts to gives squishies an edge. TD is just wrong.

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I wasn't certain whether hero planner's numbers were correct, so I went with Buffy's. Like I said, she might have been mistaken. 70% is still "very near" 90%.


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You've got to be kidding. 70% means your taking 3 times the damage as you are at 90%. Sorry but that isn't close that's just silly.

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That's nonsense. Your entire point centers around blasters running aim/buildup and whacking you with whatever. Aim/Buildup will punch through any amount of tanker defense, even with outside buffs. I had thought it was generally accepted that Ice tanks do well because of slow, endo drain, and Hibernate.


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Ice Tanks do well because not everyone has two build up powers. Their slow is good no doubt and their damage debuff helps but the whole not being hit means no secondary effects is rather a big deal and toggle dropping is a secondary effect. Remember there are ATs besides blasters that use toggle drops.

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I'm just offering you a tactic, which you evidently have not thought of and you might find useful. I find it pretty handy on my blaster (considering that if I don't have a breakfree already running I'm going to lose consistently).


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No your telling me I shouldn't really have mez protection from powers that grant it. Oh and don't be such an xxxhat.

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Since I was totally dependent on specific inspirations to even have a 50/50 chance in melee,


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So you want 50/50 in melee and a 100% chance at range....sorry no. Prehaps winning all the time and never being at a disadvantage is fine for blasters but in general that's hardly balanced. Prehaps you might have to accept that you don't always have the advantage and that prehaps the primary power pools of tanks should actually work.

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I think entirely too much emphasis is being put on how much of an advantage range is. As has been mentioned, most of the hardest hitting attacks are close; snipe is an exception, but this can be interrupted by damage or losing line of sight.


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Could be but still you do get 30% unresistable damage that helps overcome a tanks defenses already do you really need to be able to negate his entire primary?

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Hey, nice that you mentioned Firey Aura, since you were saying tanks/brutes only get one damage selfbuff. Fiery Embrace...

According to Buffy, a Fire tank can reach 90% S/L resist with just Fire Shield and Tough. She may be mistaken, I don't know. I do think that qualifies as "very near".


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Actual quote from Buffy:
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FS (6 SO DamRes), Tough (Fighting Pool) (3 SO DamREs) - Total 90%


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Those are old pre-ED figures. No one can 6 slot a power with the same enhancements anymore and expect it to do a thing and you know that or should. Actual numbers now sit at about 70% to S/L max with tough.

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Since Ice is particularly good at PVP by all accounts, yeah you'd probably better skip it.


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Ice's defense based powers is why it is so good, defense helps negate the power of toggle droppers by not getting hit. Removing toggle droppers helps balance things for the other sets.

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Why will his defenses likely all be negated? You're referring to the toggle drop hitting your status toggle, and then inflicting a sleep/disorient status. Guess what - eat a breakfree and that doesn't happen.


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Really. The vast majority of an Inv tanks resist to S/L comes from one toggle, if that gets hit blam so does half his S/L. But your suggestion is that an AT that has mez resistance needs to enter every melee with a break free running and always keep them up because he shouldn't be able to actually have mez resistance right?

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I'm examining what you're saying now in this thread - which appears to be that nobody but Blasters carries any inspirations or uses them in PVP.


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No but I am saying that someone that comes with mezz protection shouldn't have it just fall off without it being overcome. That an AT that has resistance toggle should be able to count on them actually staying up without some kludge that not only ignores part of his resistance but also makes it so they can be dropped just by getting attacked.

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I may misunderstand you, but you appear to be saying scrapper/tank/brute should just plain old "have a clear advantage" if the blaster enters melee. Why? Because you just like winning?


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Because they are melee specialists and a blaster is not. All they do (with some few exceptions, ie spines) is melee. They should be the best at that. Blasters are the best damage AT in both melee, ranged, and AoE. If they choose to fight a tank in melee they should be at a disavantage since they are effectively ignoring their primary, ignoring your primary is not a reason that mine should be negated by silly toggle drops.

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Considering the blaster had to close to melee to take advantage of toggle drops, we can write off the range advantage.


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The phrase is choose to close to take advantage of toggle drops not had too.

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...almost completely Smashing, which you likely have very close to capped resistance against with your toggles up


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Really? Well lets see. Fire can ride his resist caps to S/L how exactly? Oh yeah he can constantly pop sturdies because outside of that it aint happening, he isn't even getting all that close even with everything he could have. Ice....your talking resists so skip it. Stone.....well with granite he can but toggle droppers can't drop that anyway and he takes a -recharge and -damage to even do that never mind the -speed. Inv .... ah this must be the tank you speak of after all if he has 3 slotted for resist TI + Uy + Tough + RPD then he can indeed do this, but he shouldn't be able to rely on three of them right? He needs two powers from a power pool and three from his primary to achieve this and yet he shouldn't actually be able to expect it to work, why is that?

So tanks can run if they don't want to fight you....ok so. You can run from tanks as well, worst case you need to hit a breakfree to do so.

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Both parties are forced to do things that aren't particularly fun - kite, and be kited.


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Yes both have to. Not the tank is dead at range so he must close but if he does his defenses will likely all be negated....how is that fair?

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Being buffed to damage cap I think we can discount.


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As a scrapper I totally ignore any blaster that says that, after all how many whines did scrappers hear about being able to ride their damage cap? I can tell you many many more then I care to recall.

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Heaven forbid the AT that is described as the squishy damage AT actually have some delusions of a damage advantage!


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Are you honestly whining that tanks outdamage blasters? Be real. It's not that close. Also don't forget a blasters defense according to the devs is distance, you can strike from it and others can't. If you choose to melee with melee ATs you still do more damage but they should have a clear advantage over you for doing so.

Pure S/L sets are tough, no doubt. However the same is true of say Broadsword. It's pure S/L and everyone and their brother can get some resist and defense to it. Makes it weaker PvP then other sets no doubt.

I have no answer for why it is that way but it is and they seem determined to keep it so.

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Toggle dropping on top of unresistable damage on top of the GDN is just kicking a man in the jewels when he's down. Can you really argue that a fire/Ene blaster needs toggle dropping to kill an Inv/SS tank? That Inv has at most 27.5 resists to fire should you really be able to just drop that to 11.8 with a toggle dropper?

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Do you really think 15.7% resist is making or breaking you in pvp? If it was, then do you think a 78% reduction in chance to toggle drop can possibly be a balanced response?


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I think its a balanced response since I don't think you ever should have had any chance at dropping my toggles without overcoming my status protection or draining my end.

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Another balance issue is that neither tanks nor scrappers have toggle droppers in their powersets. How come a blaster can hit me with bonesmasher and knock my toggle down but I hit him with hack and his toggles are totally safe? Toggles like tough, hover, CJ, Stealth, Tactics, Assault and the like are all possible to be being run by that blaster but my broadsword primary can't do a bloody thing about it where as your Energy secondary can?

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Aside from having pretty competitive damage, FAR higher hitpoints and resistance, always-on status resistance? Even with your toggles off at the start of the fight you have a pretty solid comparison with any blaster build.

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The damage between tanks and blasters is not competitive at all. At best he's doing 80% of your damage but you even have a cap of 500% compared to his 400%, and then you generally have two self damage boosts and he has one. You are way out damaging him from the get go add in 30% unresistable damage to boot as well. You also have ranged attacks of great value that he lacks.

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Had the devs actually done any serious testing and not just listened from complaining from people, they would have seen this.

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Had the devs actually done any serious testing, and not just listened to complaining from blasters, they would have seen that the global defense reduction was a bad idea, and no one would've asked that the devs look into removing toggle droppers because melee defenses had taken two substantial hits in previous issues.

Or are the devs only incompetent when it's your ox getting gored?

Just to be clear: I'm not assigning incompetence to the devs. I'm trying to make a point.

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Ah, so Blasters were responsible for the global defense reduction. I suppose it had nothing to do with melee toons being neigh indestructible in PVE, herding, or powerleveling. I suppose you'll tell us next that we were responsible for ED, and every single nerf that Regen has had since the inception of the game.

Anything else you'd like to blame on blasters? Global warming, perhaps? High gas prices?

My point is that even with toggle dropping, things are not rosy for all blasters who arent Fire/Ice /EM, and that powersets like Elec, Archery, Assault Rifle, /Fire, /Ice, /Dev are having trouble enough competing WITH toggle dropping. So now we're going to go from having a 50/50 shot at winning to having next to nothing.

Congrats.

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Actually I did extensive testing of why tanks were as tough as they were and it had nothing to do with resists in I4. I tested and proved without a doubt in my mind why an Inv tank could herd +7s, groups of 100 and all. It was all because of one broken power In the case of Inv that the devs never even realized was broken until a tank player finally figured out what it was doing AFTER I5 was released. Best part is the devs did all their testing for the defense nerf based on the use of this borked power and never realized it. The power in question was Invincibility. It was stacking with itself granting defenses so high as to floor anything once you got yourself a nice little group. Throw in even low resists and you were near unkillable. My tests all pointed out that Invinciblity was the problem with Inv tank and it was all ignored in favor of destroying Inv resists in both its passives and in Unyielding. Problem is now that Invicibility has been fixed they have not undone the damage to the passives and Unyielding. The reason anyone could herd some many has only been fixed because of the limited amount of aggro one person could gather. That is what happened to Inv tanks and it was because many people were whining without knowing what was happening, because even simple testing would have shown the devs the problems but somehow they missed that and then ignored our testing.

As for Regen yes many of it's nerfs likely had more to do with whining then anything else, but not just blaster whining there are tankers who whined as well.

I see PvP as the cause for ED and in a small way blasters are part of it. ED did many things one thing it really didn't do is lower DPS much or DPE, but it totally slammed burst damage something Blasters and Scrapper used to excel at. Burst damage is how one wins in PvP in most games thus in a round about way its all Blasters fault (J/K).

Toggle dropping on top of unresistable damage on top of the GDN is just kicking a man in the jewels when he's down. Can you really argue that a fire/Ene blaster needs toggle dropping to kill an Inv/SS tank? That Inv has at most 27.5 resists to fire should you really be able to just drop that to 11.8 with a toggle dropper?

Another thing is toggle dropping makes defense based sets far more powerful then resist or healing based ones. Its a balance issue here. Ice tanks and Inv might mitigate the same damage but throw in toggle dropping and the Inv is getting creamed since he may mitigate 50% of the incoming he is still getting hit and thus loosing his toggles. Ice is loosing his toggle half as often since his mitigation is through defense.

Another balance issue is that neither tanks nor scrappers have toggle droppers in their powersets. How come a blaster can hit me with bonesmasher and knock my toggle down but I hit him with hack and his toggles are totally safe? Toggles like tough, hover, CJ, Stealth, Tactics, Assault and the like are all possible to be being run by that blaster but my broadsword primary can't do a bloody thing about it where as your Energy secondary can?