Dahjee

Not sure if it was mentioned but Seekers do stack. It's tricky but I took concealment and can very often drag the first pair into a mob and immediately cast the recharged second pair after the 1st set explodes. I went with /DP and use Chem Ammo to synergize with the seekers. Using the Power analyzer I've been able to put tough bosses and/or EBs at the -Damage cap (It turns red at -90%) within just a few seconds.

Also, as I haven't seen it mentioned but Phase Shift can be a terrific way to get the most out of mines during combat. It acts like an on/off switch. I even kept Time Bomb for this reason alone. I phase and lay a trip mine then time bomb then another trip mine and PGT... all the while aggroing as many as possible in between to get mobs to huddle around me (which they always do when you phase aggro lol- silly AI) Turn Phase off and Boom! It never gets old.

Ask me why... or tell me why not.

I'm not here to make you angry.

The tl;dr vesion gathered from many recent posts of mine:

1. Staying on topic is hard... if the fools that pop up and out were to only respond to the actual OP realated things I post... it's very likely my stay would be shortened.

2. Once you start to dumb a topic down... I grab my popcorn and prepare to make fools of your ignorance. If you can be objective... and maybe repress some of the emotional hurt and pain that I13 caused you... we can indeed have a conversation...

OP Related:

3. I don't want anyone to leave the game just like you. I happen to think more would PvP if they could retain their PvE roles even if some of the power mechanics change. I happen to PvP in just such a way as indicated by my original post in this thread and have done so successfully since PvP started, and I'm certain I'm not the only one.

4. I'm here because I need to be. In time you might understand what that means.

ROFLMAO!

and you are SERIOUS too!? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!

Omg I am no match for you! I offer only a different perspective, points and lolzy words... AND YOU CONTROLS THE FORUM REP! AHHHHHHH!!!!!!

lawl if I am the only person that finds that funny then I must pray for you all.

[EDIT:] Wait... the now bolded part is becoming stored in memory for future LOLiness and should immediately be put in someone's Sig. because it's funny.... um why am I the only one laughing?

ConFlict, come get X out of this mess please, lol.

Yeah but I'd likely be chosen in Forum KB way before you. LOL you keep score ROFLMAO



Excuse me sir, but would you kindly prevent the essence of yourself from repeatedly gravitating towards and attaching to my sak please? Thank you.


That my friend is the sad part. The Gin is KiCkin in people! lol

Please leave this thread. I cannot slow down to your speed for long periods of time.

Your only opinion here is of me X. Your rage has been reduced to pictures and when that happens I win, get it?

i don't want to be rude to you or anyone else... so when I say get off my sak... I do mean it in a respectful way.



Disagree with me and you go places... pfft.

and people say I don't help the community.

I agree.

Actually Goshnova, I stated that it is the player's responsibility to bring diversity to PvP... meaning the devs won't make us do it or do it for us. I completely agree that powers and strategies that work in PvE do not work the same in PvP. It's PvP. However the actual roles of each AT were enhanced. Not only the AT strengths mind you, but the weaknesses as well. Yes... even Control based toons!

Retaining the actual designed role of an AT while having to adapt a compltely new set of strategies since your fighting against people and not npcs is fair. Again when I say retaining a role, I'm also referring to weaknesses that can often lead to the need or desire for a particular set/set comboe to make yours flourish... like in PvE.

I mean I hate to be all contreversial... but is it not reasonable to assume that the playerbase, being strongly influenced by those most succesful at PvP went about post-I13 finding all the right powers and sets that work best under the new system... and applied them to the same strategy as before. So I mean we end up with successful builds and PvPers still, but things still seem so lacking because it's all being approached the same way.

I get what your saying and trust me I've watched it happen for a long time now. Consider this though:What would happen to the (majority) PvE playerbase if success was simply a matter of finding and playing only the most powerful powerset combinations? If PvEers only played X/Y?

I think the problem is that most peeps PvP'ed very differently from how they PvE'd before I13... that they really did not expect to change this post-i13. A "Revamp" that actually allows you to team more like you would in PvE never cross their minds... nah. Adjustment... was a matter of re-picking and promoting whatever new powers and powersets were best to fit the old way of playing.


Remind them of the role they play given the powersets they have.. and tell them how to best fufill that role via basic survival tastics and powerpicks. Tell them that you will be there to support them in their role as you play yours. The more people you can get to do this... the better.

Oh sorry you missed the point. Nice analogy though...

Your right X and I apologize. I assumed you were a reader.

Someone will catch you up I'm sure.

My apologies, I didn't truly mean to suggest that the Devs wanted to ruin high-end competitive PvP as content. As someone pointed out this was more of a consequence. It was the mentality that came along with it that made the gap wider and unfun to a majority of the playerbase.

I do not disagree with the fact that this kinda thing happens all the time. I can see how I look to promote such behavior... but I don't. You may have perhaps like many drwan a distinct line that seperates the PvP world from PvE... when it's not really that thick of a line anymore. Remember the ruleset (not just a bunch of powers) had to change to bridge the gap.

Does a gimped toon die repeatedly (compared to getting farmed in PvP) in PvE when on a team of 8? Not likely why? Because they're teamed with people playing thir PvE roles and in doing so make up for the individual weaknesess of that gimpd toon. Would tha gimped toon die repeatedly by stepping out of it's role, and trying to do the same task meant for that same team of 8 in PvE? Probably right?

Diversity is already possible, out there and quite evident especially in zones. It is however not promoted here. The devs will not wave a wand that gets more people to PvP, and they will probably not officially encourage PvErs to PvP. That's our job as a community.

Ask yourself why it became so small Conflict.

Fair enough. I can agree. However it's well known that an intended purpose of I13 was draw PvErs to PvP as well. It is only fair to consider what is also fun for them too. Also, it is unfair to assumme that all share the same definition of fun... when you already know that the term can be... "dicey."

Again i can agree, but again I think the defintion of sucess is based only on the serious minded and competitive PvP'ers perspective... and not on the defintion of success most aim for in PvE. My original point: The AT roles and purposes were enhanced to carry over into PvP. for example some just want to be a good Tanker and attract and manipulate aggro. The way to do this changes drasticaclly when looking at the same powers one might use in PvE to fufill this role, yet the role is still there in PvP.


It would have ben wise to spend more time think of what those peeps desire. Yes. I know it occurs to many to do so... but many changes I saw suggested were really there to reinforce a system that had already been reduced to a very small portion.

Again, if they could retain their role... this would not be as much the case...

Change is not a matter of time... it's a matter of what it will take.

My prescence here will influence many in future post to sound less generic and simple when speaking of viabily. The example in you set in zones is literal proof of much my overall points Conflict although I don't expect you to see that.

I'm not here to troll. Don't make this about me so much.... make it about the stuff I said if possible. I show up to discuss the topic, if what I say is debatable... then debate it. don't turn the thread topic into Dahjee posts, or hide behind wanna-be funny replys. If Iwanted to read pictures... I'd read baby books.

As far as a quote well the intial results of I13 speak for themselves. Test league go boom!? There is really only one Dev quote needed for my simple point. It is the one in my previous post that stated the purpose of I13... You must be honest and ask yourself if that purpose really fit the purpose of high end serious arena I pwnt datazz PvP boi mentality! Nah. It's was and sadly still basically remains a purpose and practice of seeking the absoulte best sets/sets to win matches. Getting the options to revert back to something at least similar to I12 didn't help the matter... but I was happy to see some of the QQ'ing stop.

Btw did you here about the Incarnate system coming soon? You know I'm sure hope they thought to plan ahead and make needed changes in PvP before dropping this abilty to make players even stronger on us! I'm almost certain ths plan would likely invlove this preparation to almost look like a nerf... kinda like ED before IOs and such.

With all the great advice and suoerior common knowledge here on the boards though, I'm sure the silly devs could never think of doing something like this... cause you know the guys here PvP more than they do and stuff.

I hate being the bad guy, but I admit it's kinda cool being the anti-anti-establishment... as someone once put it.

Oh well. No point in turning back now I say...

Reason for I13 PvP:
[ QUOTE ]
The goal is for players to be able to bring any AT and powerset combination into PVP and to be competitive and have fun! [/quote]

The part no one will tell you is that I13 was actually also aimed at eliminating high-end lolserious PvP.... (moreso the High-End lol serious PvP mentality)because it wasn't fun for like the 99% of the playerbase. What was left of those serious PvPers that didn't ragequit went on to misunderstand the new system almost completely. Sure they understood the changes and how they worked, but not the purpose of the changes and how exactly it reinforced the quoted statement above. It was a whole new ruleset based around the purpose quoted above: Competitive powerset combinations and fun! The Core of PvPers at the time were blinded from seeing past the numbers, and due to their high standing rep from being so super awesome in arena, their misguided advice to the masses was sucked up anyway.

They had no idea..... quick example: This one from Mac:

Seems odd/confusing when you're looking at the numbers but makes complete sense when looking at roles and AT purpose. A Tanker's Purpose is to most survivable right? That's not the role of a Blaster. I13 emphasized things like this in so so many ways it's not even funny. He did realize though that Blasters retain a decent bonus from +Damage buffs though... The role of damage dealer is known quite well.

The hardcore PvPers... the one that were not the intended focus of the changes (hint hint) someohow convinced themselves that even being 1-2% of the CoX population meant they new what was best for 100% of the players of this game.... The audacity I know right? They quickly determined which powers and powerset were most powerful... again... and that my friend is what they took to the boards with. No, not the Powerset Combinations needed but the same simplified approach as they had prior to I13.

They went on to lead the commmunity and encourage the exact opposite of what I13 intended.

I could go on but I think I'll let the truf... and the rage settle for a moment.

It should... especially when I seem to be the only one aware of these things. I know that I am not though. Beleive it or not I wouldn't waste time to come here and make **** up.


Ok This is a forum. It is not a court.

You want to make things into right/wrong. I just want to discuss the topic... because it's a forum... not a court.

The only reason I taunted peeps to prove me wrong is because all I hear is blah blah you give bad advice when I rarely advise anyone to do anything. This has been repeated by me several times yet still those who crusade against me will have peeps thinking otherwise. So in an attempt to get rid of yet another baseless excuse used to try and make me look dumb, lol. I offered peeps here a chanceto show all this Bad Advice I seem to spit.

If I am wrong about so much and those who seem to think so are right..... Then why is PvP so screwed up atm? Go on... say it so I can laugh.

Oh wait... good advice here is something that can produce results. Who has been advising us since I13? How has that worked out for everyone? Huh? I see the results... do you?

You are quite twisted to think that I'm new to this. It's laughable at times to see peeps forget that I've been PvPing in this game since arenas went to beta and that I do indeed know my ****.

Don't let the smoove taste fool you.

OMG Cool! Did Mac just introduce another excuse for his robots to hide behind when dealing with me? Why Yes he did!... This one is much better than the K/D ratio excuse introduced weeks ago... and almost as good as the flying Ar/Dev stuff he introduced months ago... I hope this one can stick. His minions are getting tired.

Wait. Lets see how many Robots will follow this new trend....

Oh my! Here's one now!


Pleae explain how I am trolling? I'm not really sure what counts. I always assumed it was posting stuff that un related to the OP with the hopes of angering the people in it or something... Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Edit:] lol I'm a verb. That is awesome.

Yeah we've been down this road before. This is the part where you reinforce my points fully. Due to the fact that your statement reflects the fact that it is much harder now to protect, support, and simply keep someone alive in PvP. I mean if it's that much easier to get a kill... it's that much harder to keep someone alive right? Remember when the player community conviced everyone that defenders are usless and shouldn't be played....?

Happened for me... happens for othes too...

It's so funny to me that the person speaking of I13 and ideas of how it can work well is harmful to new players... and the general sentiment about I13 being bad is more helpful.

Yeah yeah blah blah.... no need to relive the moment. Forgive me I was drunk when I posted that last night... but I do feel I summed things up quite well. I was in I13 Beta. I know very well about the tales and tears of PvP 2.0.

From I can tell... players did the opposite of what the devs designed it for.

Dev: "We want the new system to include more variation of sets and ATs... we will desgin PvP 2.0 wth this in mind"

Uber l33t Player Rep to the community: "Um lets find FoTMs anyway and ignore variation! They didn't force us to think so lets not! Look at MIds... it says X/Y is soooo powerful!!! DuDe play that and only that!"

Stop blaming Devs and I13. Take some Fing responsibilty for this mess.

True Indeed, they do not fully. They do however provide a foundation on which to build upon or base "Success/Failure" on. If you have a desire to change something for PvP for a particular AT... I promise that emphasizing these decripstions' contradictions will help more so than random PvP wants and hopes based on emotions or what you see currently.

Um. Yes I can. Devs don't tell us what or how to play... Other players do. Once they convince us that they know what they're talking about. Bad players fall for anything they say. Even good Players recommend out of a biased and skewed perception that is far too often based on lolserious arena PvP, where players have the luxury of actually Picking who they want to PvP with.

Despite the reduction in effectiveness all ATs still retain their niche. Example: Defenders are weaker than most as offensive PvPers, yet they do indeed still provde the highest numbers for support, and yes they can easily be made farm targets if no one is willing to look after their heavily sought HP bar. This is easily comparable to PvE. Sonic/ and Cold/ for example offer DR'ed buffs far below those cataloged Pre-I13, but those DR'ed buffs are higher than any Troller or Corr can acheive. In a team, keeping your defender alive can be critical once you realize how to get the most out of it's specific purpose.... ignoring a particular defender's purpose is comparable to noobs that can only survive with a healzor at their side in PvE.

Scrappers and Blasters and Stalkers retain their primary roles in PvP to the "T." Their appeal to PvP newbs and PvP noobs is no different than in PvE either. The appeal stems from a basic independancy to get a kill. Obviously the promotion and advertising of these ATs and their designed roles attract bad players to take the easy route... since the easy route atm is anythng that leads to an easy kill, more rep, and/or more dropped IOs.

You all can read these descriptions the same as me... I want to avod another TL: DR post. so I will elaborate on other ATs if prompted.
The overall point is that stenghths and weaknesses weren't erased but forgotten or ignored... even made to seem non-existent in order to justify a "uselessnes" label by the community.


Think closely about building a TF/SF at 3am in the morning.... Sure you got peeps that want to join.... but what do you Need??? More Aggro control? You need more damage? Perhaps more CC or heals... Maybe some -Regen or some other form of debuffing. Maybe even someone that can rez??? You may consider all of the above to be pointless in PvP considering the current ruleset but these roles are not useless. They are simply used less... In the absence of these roles we've created replacement/stacked roles to fill the part.

In PvP... just like in PvE... A smart leader will recognize a team's weaknesses and recruit accordinlgly, or to the best of their ability given what may be out there. (Zone PvP) They will adapt to what has become the team's strongest liabilty or strength and coach/lead the team accordingly. "Not -so -Smart" leaders seem to wait for copy/paste builds they've ben told are effective... these peeps usually quit or whine when their crutch fails to show up.

These (I13) changes helped by revealing to the community EXACTLY what each set could not make up for on it's own. This should of been a sign to seek out the set/set combos that would eliminate weaknesses and stregthen strengths within each powerst spoke of... but that didn't happen. Blind and Blatant avoidance of certain sets occurred and was encouraged. This phenomenon was not helpful to vets or newbies... nor was it 100% necessary post I13.

Simple.

I13 helped by making the Sets you speak of needed/required more for the survival of sets that require the unique attibutes from each set. If you truly build for slows they will work; Sacrafices to other aspects of PvP must be made though to make this purpose possible. If all else fails, then stacking what slows you have with another who has the same desired purpose takes priority.

WTF cares what was asked for. Your $15 dollars/Month goes to the people who make the game... deal with it or dwell on it I always say... live in the past or look towards the furtue is another way to put it.

Fact is that the introduction of IOs in I9 allowed many players to ignore the dependancies they had come to rely on... and I13 reinforced this menatlity. Personally, I feel this is more obvious on Blueside, but I've never felpt forcd by the devs to do anything.

The statement reffered to is based on Forum behavior and given advice. When a system is intoduced with the purpose of offering enjoyable PVP to the masses.... and the powers that influence actually encourage the playerbase to do the exact opposite... What can be said about the new system? How can change occur when it is quite obvious that adaptaon never occured.

I don't think anyone approved of all the changes...

Change is not matter of time nor need. It is a matter of "What it will take" for that change to occur. <--- Real Shi*T.

I won't go down that road.

To sum it up for you though.... Devs saw money in making PvP more appealing to PvErs... they looked for and sought ideas to get them (PvErs) involved.... made the mistake of asking too mny Serious PvPers what would work. ignored then and based changes on what would really help... and watched as disgruntled PvPers raged about how the changes didn;t helpthem get better. Close enogh I'm sure.



Nice edit: who are you talking about???

As pointed out earlier. You are confused and therefore likely to be a Robot.... dependant on another to tell you what to feel and think and say. I have yet to PvP with my /DP defender in RV. If possible... please encourage this poor Trapster you pseak of to holla at me via @Dahjee Global. It is obvious to me.. that he/she is doing it wrong.


TL;DR you say.....?

Perhaps it's better that way. Then again... you all asked for it, so keep it OP related and respond accoridingky if possible.

... or provide the standard "I hate Dahjee" post to cover for an inabilty to prove me wrong.

You got it Mac. Stop being mad at me btw. I need your numbers skills for future posts. I will try and answer to the best of my ability.

I'm decent but I still have questions. Please be objective with me when I ask them.

What's more exciting is that is worked!

lrn!

lolseriousPvP... you mean arena matches right?

Find a Brute... make them your pet. Find a purpose... you probably feel that it is neutered because it can no longer do what it did or it would have did for you under the old system. It's only useless if it isn't used. Sonic Cage may not take players out a fight for example... but can be reserved and used to save lives or stop and Emp from applying a critical heal with good awareness/timing for example. Hell I've used Cage on spike targets in a zone before... just because it made it easier for a PuG to find and target the $Target and attack it together.

Yet the best of us have done so at some point and learned from it enough to reccomend to others what to avoid and so forth. Are you saying that NO ONE should go through what others (good players) have gone through to improve and get better?

Yeah it messed over powers and sets and mobility etc... but not the roles themselves. I13 as I saw it emphasized many of the weaknesses each AT has. Snippet from the last couple of lines from each AT:

Blaster -The Blaster can't stand toe to toe with most opponents for long. His best defense is a great offense!
Controller -the Controller is the backbone for any super group, but the Controller often depends upon teammates for protection.
Defender -the Defender is not built for hand to hand. He might be able to dodge a few attacks, but the Defender won't last for long.
Scrapper -But the Scrapper is not as resilient as the Tanker, and might find himself in a little trouble if he heedlessly wades into combat
Tanker -But the Tanker lacks any long range punch. The Tanker would prefer just to charge straight ahead anyway.
Brute -You do lack ranged attacks, which could leave you vulnerable to hit-and-run tactics without allies to cover you.
Corruptor -This wide array of abilities comes at a price. Your defenses aren't strong, and you can quickly attract the ire of your enemies if you aren't careful.
Dominator -With so much emphasis on diverse offensive powers, Dominators lack in defenses and work best with teammates who can provide protection.
Mastermind -Mastermind is a difficult class to play, often demanding constant attention to control your minions and stave off the retribution of your enemies.
Stalker -Deadly attacks and good defenses make you a dangerous combatant and assassin, but you can be overwhelmed if you're not careful.

Each one holds true in PvP no? Is it a surprise that Blasters stand out on blueside when their only weakness encourages them to defeat their target asap. This is appeal, just like the City of Blasters in PvE we all knew 5 years ago. What's missing atm however is the support for those that need it. Not support ATs but general support. Do melee toons kinda suck in PvP? Well they kinda do if their ranged allies don't give a flying *** about them. A defender's description has "farm target" written all over it, yet still scrappers and blasters don't respond to their HP bar, nah they just recommend a better set to play with that won't be dependant on others coming to their aid.|


ATs have seperate roles in PvP... ignoring this is a decision made by the playerbase... not the Devs, and not the design. It's getting old now... and I simply want the nonsense to stop trickling down to players who know no better.

I'm here because I need to be. In time you might understand what that means.

That's so Virtue.

Do your thing X.