Cybercel

FU/LouD over on Union can't field an 8-person team, but I'd maybe be interested in joining in if there's a spot on a team. The obvious toons on Union would be my Empath or my Thermal. I also have a Sonic/Elec Blaster at 50 and a Rad/Psy Defender at 47-ish on Defiant. I'm far more confident on the two Union toons, though.

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Learn everything. When you're entering a PvP zone, you need to know EXACTLY what every power, in every powerset does.

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I just want to reinforce this. I run across a lot of people who take out completely the wrong target in a team, probably because they just don't realise what a threat certain powers are to them. Knowing who needs to be taken out first, or what tactics an arena team is likely to use, or what you can do to counter powers you're facing (even if the only counter is "RUN NOW"), then you'll do better.

Being an altoholic helps with this, because you'll have used a wide range of powers and know their effects. If you're not, though, you can easily pick these things up from a combination of just playing, and from guides, or hero planner programs. Pay attention to your teammates' powers, and to powers of the people you fight. If someone absolutely destroys you in PvP and you have no idea why, ask them what sets they are, or what powers they just used. Also keep in mind that what they might be buffing their teammates with matters a lot, too. I use Sherk Silver's planner whenever I'm not sure about a power. I don't trust the numbers outright, but it'll generally give you at least the basics reliably.

To give you a head start, the other day, Syn and I killed you with a Kineticist and a Thermal - two Corruptors. Siphon Speed was what slowed you (and your recharge), I'd most likely used the web grenade-like power from my patrol pool to stop you jumping, and then I hit you with Heat Exhaustion (-regen -dmg -recovery -endurance) and Melt Armor (-res -def). I'd guess Syn likely drained some of your endurance, too. The end result of that combination of powers is that you die pretty quickly with the -res and -def, but even if you tried to get away it would be difficult, and if you tried to fight much, you'd run out of endurance.

Oh yeah, that brings me to another tip... kill the buffers and debuffers. And as someone has already said, movement is key. Don't sit still and be a huge target. Don't stay still once you're attacked. A load of debuffs is all the more lethal dropped on you at the same time, especially if you then stay in range for the follow-up attacks - you can let debuffs wear off by just managing to get out of range and kiting the enemy/ies around for a bit.

This is also where SJ/SS comes in handy - in the situation I've used as an example, even slowed with Siphon Speed, you'd have had some hope of getting away with Super Speed, especially given you were near the hero base at the time. And yes, you can get away with TP, but that's about all you can do with it, and you're never going to learn to PvP just TPing around the map. If you ever take it for a PvP toon, count on it as an escape power, and maybe a long-distance travel power, but nothing else. The other travel powers can all be used whilst fighting. Fly, for the record, is just generally too slow to be worthwhile, and there are a lot of -fly powers around. It's nice for chasing others fliers with, and aerial battles, and it's the easiest travel power to maneuver with, but it's worth getting used to fighting whilst bouncing around instead.

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I'd actually quite like to see another squishies only tournament but with no identical powersets instead of archetypes.

In fact, I'd like to see a lot more large-team tournaments. Maybe Squished but 4vs4 next time? With more players the tactics tend to be a lot different, and powers like the captures (sonic cage, detention field) are a lot more balanced rather than being damn-near "I win" buttons.

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Yeah, aside from the same ATs but not powersets suggestion I already mentioned, I'd like to see maybe 3 vs 3 matches, or 4 vs 4 as you've suggested. There was a bit of a discussion during the tourny about this, though, and the feeling was it would be hard to get enough teams for even 3 vs 3. I'd go for it though, especially if same ATs were allowed within teams.

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Thanks to all.

was a great event needs to be tweaked i think for next event...

Congratz to Duo who came from the loser bracket to win the event..

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Yes...can we please bring 2*AT teams and NO cage.

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I would like to see two of the same AT allowed, as I think I mentioned at the event. I was wondering whether it might actually be better to block two of the same powerset? Just an idle thought more than anything, but Shaman's two-Empath idea might have been almost as frustrating to fight as a cager/bubbler had Gatling stuck around.

And as for cages and bubbles, if KS (and someone from the villain side) would be okay with checking everyone's builds, and doesn't mind the idea of banning certain powers, it could just be banned outright. Or, as I mentioned, I do have a possible idea, which I'll get Syn to pass to KS while I'm at work.

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I like cages, and they are just as fair as any other power imo

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The problem is that they turn fights into the best team or players winning, into who can keep someone bubbled, which is not the world's most difficult job.

This isn't intended as a jab at anyone, really, but the best players didn't win last night - some really good PvPers were beaten purely based on one power, and the abilty to use that one power over and over. While I realise it's legitimate to use any power we're given, and use it in any way we can, it led to an awful lot of slow, dull matches, and the forcing out of the tournament of people who were actually playing better fights. The fact that people got any kills when being essentially perma-caged or bubbled speaks to that. It's basically saying "we can't fight you unless we get to take you 2 vs. 1."

Again, I don't say this to flame any of those using this tactic, it is as valid as anything else, given there wasn't a rule against it and it's part of the game. My argument is against the power, not its users, really. I have a suggestion or two to pass on to KS, if he's organising another - there might be some setups that would still allow 2 vs. 2 whilst stopping this one power from becoming too good.

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Sounds like everyone just needs to turn up at the same time and earlier than 10pm lol. I went and watched Skins so missed more people arriving.

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You took off pretty much just as things started to heat up.


I'm fairly sure that even during some points when the villains were doing well, we were still outnumbered, but we were teamed the whole time, as Syn and I invited everyone into our team as soon as they turned up. That really helped, and I didn't realise until very late on that a number of the heroes hadn't bothered to team at all.

Given that, I don't think it's going to be difficult to get even numbers on each side in future fights (especially as quite a few people were willing to switch back and forth), it's just a matter of being sure there are (relatively experienced) people willing to lead on both sides. The villain side benefitted from a number of us being people who PvP quite a lot.

Anyway, if we keep it up, I suspect we'll see the balance tip both ways at times, depending on who comes, and who signs onto which side, and who's leading, and so on. I really doubt it will be so one-sided for so long every night, especially given it normally seems like more heroes can be rallied than villains.

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I can't help but think that some of the 'farming' is just people arriving and finding no one else in the zone. When that happens, what's there to do but treat it as a PvE zone.

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It does serve that purpose, which is part of the reason I really like it being there, as I've stated before. It gives big enough prestige rewards that I'll happily wander around getting them until enough people show up to have a proper fight. That's a big part of why I spend more time in RV than the other zones, in fact - there's nothing massively interesting or rewarding to do in the other zones while waiting around.

There still are certainly plenty of people who are there purely to farm though, and a good percentage of them will often let you know rather vocally (and unpleasantly) that they have no intention to PvP, and furthermore, feel you shouldn't attack them. That kind of attitude actually bothers me more than the people who shout stupid insults whilst actually fighting - not that I like that either, but it's better than the endless arguments from self-righteous and hopelessly incorrect "how dare you interrupt my PvE in a PvP zone?" types.

People who go in solely to farm but don't give anyone grief when they do get killed, I have no issue with.

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Just wondering which is the best solo build, as in what primary and secondery are great for solo pve or pvp and which does the most damage.

Hope someone can help and cheers.

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Given you mention both PvE and PvP, are you looking for a hybrid build that could do both? Or a couple of different characters?

If you want one character that will be workable in both, I'd go Sonic or Ice for the primary. Both have good single-target damage, and good secondary effects. Sonic suffers a little in PvP from Shout being a bit slow (although it's nothing that'll ruin PvP for you), but the -res is great, and you'll storm through PvE.

As far as a secondary that can do both, I'd think Rad or Dark are the obvious ones. They're never going to do as much damage as a Kin later on, in PvE, but they're a lot safer, they have a lot more tricks up their sleeves. And in PvP, Kins can be great against certain things solo, but I thikn they suffer a little from not having many way to protect themselves. The heal is more difficult to use, there are no tohit debuffs, and so on - I think Kins really shines more in teams.

Really though, you can make a lot of different things work solo - a lot of it comes down to what fits your playstyle, and how you build it. If you like Cold or Kin and purely want to solo, you can drop out the team buffs to pick up things more useful for soloing. Thermals can make good duelers, even if they really look like team characters at first glance - they're great against Regens. I think you'd have to work a lot harder, though, and if what you're looking for is really feeling quite good against a wide range of opponents, and not having too hard a time surviving fights, then those probably won't be what you're after.

I can't see how you can ask for "no forum pvp theorycraft" and then post a single chain, and say that makes Fire/Cold the best possible solo PvP damager. One chain alone (especially one that depends on a -res power with a 360 base recharge and a tohit check), does not a "most damaging build" make.

Plus, you're also going on entirely arguable things like being able to slot one acc, which I just wouldn't do for a dedicated PvP build. Sure, you have some -def, but that power itself has a tohit check, and if you're fighting a def-based character with that kind of build, you're hosed. And if you really want to do more damage but don't have SHOEs, you're probably going to want the recharges in attacks that you've just happily removed to claim it's workable. Fireball, for instance, is quite slow recharging and not great damage in the first place.

I realise the original poster asked about most damage, but the word "best" was also mentioned, and I think it's safe to assume when most people post asking about what powerset combinations work out best, they don't want the combination that can theoretically do a load of damage once every 130 seconds in ideal conditions, but probably isn't that good in any other situation. (Fire/Cold is a tight build, for the record - if you try to make a soloable PvPer, you'll probably gimp yourself for teamplay. I know, I had one, and that - and the lack of synergy between sets - is precisely why I deleted it.)

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Me to, plz explain where Fire beats Ice for example with /cold

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Primary aside, I'm not seeing how /Cold is going to do the most damage in any situation, anyway. I'd be interested in hearing the reasoning, too.

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Whilst I'm erecting PFF and Temperature Protection; is there actualy anywhere IN game that says this useful piece of information?

You know...so people don't have to read the whole PvP thread to get this?

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If you mean dragging and dropping the heavy control icons, then not that I know of. I just ran across it myself a couple of weeks ago by accident... kinda looked at the icons, wondered if I could drag and drop them seeing as they looked similar to the MM power icons, and tried it. It's nothing huge since they do the same things in the pet window anyway, but if you spend a lot of time there or find the controls a little unintuitive, it makes them a bit more accessible.

As far as macros, I think I remember seeing some basic stuff in the Help section of the game Menu, but I doubt there's anything specific about MM or Heavy macros.

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Just to clarify, do you mean you can set up your own macros for them? Such as you can with basic MM pets?

Because that's pretty nifty.

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Yep! The pet window gives you some good basic ones if you don't want to get too far into it (or want the pretty icons, rather than grey macro buttons), and is nice for people who don't know much about macros.

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...at least with MM pets, as you say, you can set up keybinds.

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Just as a hint to anyone reading this, you can set up macros for the Heavies. In fact, easier still, you can drag and drop the commands from the pet windows, as I mentioned, right into empty slots on your tray.

No idea why I thought to try it, but I just noticed the drag-and-drop trick for myself a couple of weeks ago, and it's nice if you're really interested in making the most out of the villain Heavies, especially.

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Oh I see, Heavies are useless because people have never played an MM before, and are getting introduced to Pet managment in a fairly unfriendly zone.

I can't wait for my 54 pet!

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I think the AI issues are more that the tracking is pretty poor, and because the Heavies are extremely slow, they can tend to get stuck on scenery, especially on certain parts of the map. Sometimes I'll find myself having to backtrack to get back to my Heavy and get it past a tree, or some stairs.

Ordering it to go after someone is easy enough (especially if you drag and drop the commands from the pet window it opens up for you), but it still moves very slowly, so it's not going to be chasing after people at any rate. Less of an issue with the hero side Heavy with its ranged, single-target "nuke", but the villain one is a lot better in melee. (Mind you, I still like the villain ones better - they're great once you get used to moving them around, for the PvE in the zone.) There's certainly going to be a learning curve for anyone who's not played an MM much, though - I know there was for me.

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I can see the running away bit being anoying, but in my pursute of one hero i alowed myself to get seperated, with 3 angry heroes intent on revenge and an endurence crash incoming i bottled it and went for conseve power and fly away as fast as i could to fight anotherday, i still maintain tactics although i conceed im on shakey ground

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Knowing when to back off and trying to stay close to your team are both good things in PvP. You tend to get people in the zones (and from what I've seen, RV can be particularly bad for this) who don't really understand the concept of team PvP however, and they'll sometimes throw fits about the fact that you are teamed, the fact that you don't just stand there and let them kill you, insp use, and even use of certain powers. It's often best to just ignore these people, as nothing will convince them that you're doing nothing wrong, even though you're just making use of the game's mechanics.

Generally, the people who do this aren't experienced PvPers, and they're probably just frustrated that you're doing better than them. They start throwing out any argument they can to make it sound like you're really no good at PvP, and make themselves feel better.

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I don't believe that the people farming pillboxes for xp or badges are exclusive to farming xp/badges either. I've seen people go from PvE to PvP when the enemy shows up and I've done it myself.

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Very true. There certainly are people who exclusively farm, but you'd be surprised how many will fight back - and even bring friends in to help fight back - if you go after them. Personally, I go in there and farm turrets until people show up. It gives me something to do while I'm waiting around for people, and I can generally get some decent PvP in any given night if I hang around for a while. If there were nothing PvE-related to do in the zone though, I'd leave out of boredom before I got the chance to fight anyone.

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...you (and your partner) are saying that it's broken; but you don't wish to fix it.

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No, I'm certainly not saying that. I'm just saying I don't agree with your suggested 'fix'. Go back, re-read my posts, and you'll see I've reasoned out exactly why I don't agree with your suggestion, and offered my own take on things. I'm not just asking for the status quo to be preserved by any stretch - I just don't want a rather fun element of the zone to vanish when there's no need for it to do so.

I've also never asked for the environment aspect to be lowered, and I'm sure Syn will tell you this himself, but he hasn't either - in fact, we both tend to be pretty big proponents of the idea that if you want pure PvP without PvE interaction, then go to the Arena. When I'm asking for is something to cause more players to actually complete the (PvE) objectives, and also take part in PvP in the course of doing so. Entirely different from asking for things to just be removed, which helps nothing at all.

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And anyway. Healbot/Buffbot; it just means the Empath doesn't do anything other than watch a health/buff bar and that's not an exciting thing to do.

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Asking someone to come into PvP with you on a Scrapper is opening up for them to be a DAMAGEBOT!!!

You might not like PvP Empathing, but a lot of us do, as I think the other replies have made clear. As has also been made clear, those of us who have an Empath (or other buffing character) probably quite like healing and buffing... because that's what those characters do. (Although, as has also been made clear, there's just a touch more to it than staring at health bars, especially when everyone in the zone wants you dead first and foremost.)

Much like I don't like Scrappers very much, but still recognise hitting things as a valid form of gameplay, the fact that you don't like playing an Empath doesn't mean it's a Bad Thing.

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Thats exactly what I was thinking of!

Wonder if its possible to organise though?

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Yeah, it's pretty obvious the zone was made with larger crowds intended. Just find some of the old news items about the zone before it was released, and you'll see what the idea was. However, the reward system doesn't reward people for the right things, so it's not really happened.

There have been some big fights in RV, and when those have happened, it's been a lot of fun. The Heavy owners never remain Heavy owners very long, there are enough people that everyone can get a team even if none of their friends PvP, and so on. It does work, with higher numbers.

In a previous thread, someone tried to organise a weekly RV fight, but I think the whole thing got a little overcomplicated, and people lost interest. It might be happening on Defiant, I'm not sure. There have been times when larger SGs have staged raids, and on one occassion, a huge fight broke out when some heroes announced an AV and badge hunt on the forums, and villains announced a counter attack. PvPers showed up on both sides along with the badgers, and it turned into a huge fight that went on for some time. So events can be organised, and they can work out, but I think in the long run it would be better if the reward system were tweaked to pull more people in, and reward them for actually PvPing.

The way I see it, there are two options - remove things like the Heavies, and the vast amounts of XP/Inf/Prestige from the turrets, making PvE less tempting in the zone, in the hopes that ending such farming will make it more PvPable. The problem with this is that the zone then loses all of its originality, and there's still nothing to attract people... and nothing to do in the downtime when it is quiet. My suspicion is we'd end up with a dead zone.

The other option is what I favour - keep the Heavies (but maybe add a timer if possible - although with more people in there, it might not be necessary), keep the XP potential, but give people a reason to make their side win, and a reason to fight the opposite side. As it stands, there's plenty of reason to kill the neutral turrets, but not much incentive to take the pillboxes for your side - especially if they're already been taken over by the other side. The zone rewards you for letting the other side win, so you can get back to farming more quickly. And then if your side does win, the rewards are pretty poor. If things could be tweaked so that the biggest rewards came from actually taking the zone, then people would do it. And it might encourage people who wouldn't normally to actually fight the other side, to take back pillboxes the other side had taken, and really fight for control.

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If it were the case that there was a huge unified outcry and everyone hated the Heavies, then you'd have a point. But we don't. And the only other reason they'd need to be removed would be if they really were instant-win... but they're not, as those of us who actually spend a lot of time in RV - as opposed to just complaining about it from a safe distance - well know.

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Are you saying that there hasnt been an outcry against RV grinding? I thought there has been couple heated threads..

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To the best of my knowledge, there have been two threads recently about the Heavies, both of which you started. And yes, they were heated, which is precisely my point - if everyone agreed, and there was unified hatred of Heavies and RV, then it wouldn't get heated. We'd all agree, and then perhaps it would make sense to say things need to change.

The thing is, no matter what is done with any of the PvP zones, some people will like it, and some won't. I don't really see an overwhelming outcry about this issue - for everyone on here who says the Heavies are too strong, someone comes and says they like them. For everyone who hates the fact that people use RV to farm, there's someone who loves the fact they can do just that... or has fun chasing the farmers around.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see something to entice more players, but I know how well the zone works when it's more full as it is. Getting rid of the Heavies won't help, it'll just make it dull. It needs a better reward system like Siren's, where there's a reason to complete the objectives. The 100 Prestige per player kill when your side has won is nice, but nothing much - I can get more killing mobs for the same amount of time. The mini-heavy temp power is nice, but you can only have one at a time. Pull in more people and give them more reason to complete the objectives, and the heavies - and hours of farming - would become a non-issue.

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Empath team-mate is just opening up for someone to be a healbot.
TP Foe I find repulsive, and worse than GPs.

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The problem is, whenever anyone does offer you an option, it's one you apparently don't like, or claim is impossible. (btw, I still have no idea what this "healbot" stuff is, after the last thread where you started on about them. Empaths heal and buff a lot, that's okay and normal.)

It just feels like no matter what anyone says, you'll shoot it down, because you quite simply don't like the Heavies, and want them to be the problem.

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They are also something different that no other zone has and allows anyone to access the MM control system. How can this be a bad thing?

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Because there is no decent PvP zones over level 40 where this thing doesn't occur.

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All of the PvP zones have PvE games within them. They're all different, and some of us like some zones, and certain parts of the PvE, and not others. It's the entire nature of the zones.

It's bound to be the case that not everyone will like everything about any given zone. Some people love Warburg being FFA, for example, while others hate it. We can't have everything - the zones already aren't that populated, and with limited dev time, we can't have 2 38 zones, 2 50 zones, etc. I live with that, in the knowledge that other people like the parts I don't, so there's very little sense in constantly complaining about it.

If it were the case that there was a huge unified outcry and everyone hated the Heavies, then you'd have a point. But we don't. And the only other reason they'd need to be removed would be if they really were instant-win... but they're not, as those of us who actually spend a lot of time in RV - as opposed to just complaining about it from a safe distance - well know.

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Isn't this just Empaths though? Surely you could add this to a Scrapper/Tank or a D3 Defender? or Even a GP?

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I can tell you firsthand that I'd rather team my Blaster with an Empath than just about anything else. Certain Controller/Empath combos can be very good, but in the zones (given that's what we're discussing here), I'd take a Blaster for the burst damage any day. And when you have that many buffs and heals, a Scrapper's secondary is a bit of a waste. The point is that an Empath and Blaster complement each other particularly well - an Empath helps patch up a lot of the things a Blaster isn't good at, and then adds more damage dealing potential as well.

As for Heavies (calling them GPs is bound to confuse anyone who missed the old thread, by the way), an Empath with a heavy is a nice way for a team only Empath to be able to go into RV alone, but it's not great. I'd always take another player over a Heavy. You're talking about something that's horribly slow, can't jump up to get people, and just doesn't have human intelligence behind it. Yes, you're ordering it around, but you're acting with one brain, instead of two in a human duo. One person to notice things that are going on, one person to do everything. And then you have to deal with the Heavy's dire AI that makes it get stuck on scenery. Plus the Empath buffs aren't nearly as complementary to a Heavy as they are to a Blaster.

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I wanted to show L that blaster+emp does not equal automatic win.

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Nothing is. In the context of the thread, what was being said was not that Blaster + Empath is unbeatable, but that it's better than a Heavy. And if Blaster + Empath is better than a Heavy, but still beatable (which is very much my experience), it should tell you something about Heavies.

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OK Lexce, can you give me some rough figures on what said Blaster would be like if we're taking all buffs into account?

I've not heard about this before; and would like to see for myself.

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The easiest way would be just to get an Empath into RV with you, to see exactly how it holds up. Numbers are great, but you can pretty easily see for yourself how much better Blaster + Empath is than a heavy by going in.

Aside from the big +def of Fort, the regen from PBed Regen Aura and AB is insane, and very often enough to keep a Blaster alive on its own, if you're only talking one heavy - I can just let Syn regen and not even bother healing his Blasters, at times. With more around, you need some heals as well, but as long as the Emp is quick, and timing its buffs well, you shouldn't have a problem.

Well-played Blaster/Empath duos are scary - I often find a dedicated duo like that is worse than a team with an Empath even, because all of those buffs and heals are concentrated on one person, and they become very difficult to kill.