Crenson

Sorry, I do tend towards the overly verbose. And I also typo quite a bit...I have a thing about rereading and reworking posts to check for mistakes. If I do that..well, I end up rewriting the entire thing. But I thank you for the compliment.

And as for the 75%- a fully 200% of end recovery would pull out to around 30 seconds for full recharge. half of that increase, 45 seconds. Half again, 37.5, which is moderately close to your 41 second number- close enough, in my mind, to be within the margin of error. However, I pulled those numbers from a post on Stamina and Quick recovery, so I cannot vouch for thier accuracy. As the exact numerics weren't the point of the post, I did not take the time to fact-check them.

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Nah, my video card BLOWS.

I tried to make a video once and my FPS dropped to what seemed like 0.0008 FPS.

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My computer simply crashed last time I tried. ANd I can't even really look at the cohdemo type files.

So while I'd love to help, my Raedeon doesn't like CoH too much as is.

So any who can and will change it up, please show up ready to record.

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Again, I reiterate, get a video of it. I want to see this stuff first hand. Maybe get Captain_Reno to do it, provided you can get him away from his Golden Dragonfly long enough.

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Agreed.

I asked in that thread for any who could join to please make a video, and any who can host it would be good.

SO please do come along if you can make a video, taht'd be really really nice.

Not to hijack, but the data about the proposed AV end draining on Test is right here.

For those not interested in following the link, we'll be meeting at portal courtyard in PI at around 9pm EST, and it looks like we might have 2 or even 3 teams. Could really use an Ice or a Fire tanker (to mitigate aggro and drain end with thier abilities as well).

Anyone is welcome, we'll see what turns up. Please slot for end drain, and bring any AV missions you can. Results will be posted in that thread.

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Don't rule out that Short Circuit stops (supposedly) end regen. So, if you can get them to zero, (AND keep them from running away) then you can KEEP them at zero. They cannot regen from powers such as Stamina and such. (Unless they choose to let these powers and inspirations override the ability of SC to stop regen)

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Best way to thinkj about short circuit is like a toglge power that takes away exactly normal end regen, at the same time. They most certainly do keep regenerating from other powers, but since it disables the regular end regain..well..

TO clarify- Stamina recovers end at about 75 % of normal end rate, when 6 slotted. So end recovery rate is 175%...or, after, SC, 75%. This has a noticable impact- with only 75% recovery and full drain, a large number of attacks can not be used. That does not mean total lockdown but a bit of a dent.

FOr, of course, 3 seconds on even cons. Which is one hell of a sticking point. Not very good, because it's the only power that even can do this, it scales upward horribly....

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You don't even want to see the numbers for Fire. So how does electric do more damage in 10 seconds than other blasters? Electric cannot hang with other blasters in DPS, even with the extra damage/aggro draw of voltaic sentinel. I also dare you to throw your voltaic sentinel in the middle of a groups of hard enemies (like say in the respec TF) and see how much aggro it draws on you as it randomly picks targets.

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Yikes (didn't quote all that because people can just scroll up). While I would say that VS would get -3- shots off, because you can pay end and initial activation cost before the fight begins, and even counting from when zapp actually does damage (as stated above), Ice...yeah. I thought those activation times would be quick enough, but I did not sit down and work out the math. However, even adding in 1 more attack in that original 3 seconds, and another attack from VS, well....Ice still edges it out. Fire's not going ot kil it by that much more because Ice is working with those amazing activation times.

VS isn't worth noting in pure DPS unless you -already- have it out, and hence why I said 'from the first shot' in my post.

OH, and please don't think that I would ever drop sparky in a situation where I'm not majorly backed up, by healers and provokers and all. That said, elec rocks the respec trial in a way that is fun to see. Freakshow are -highly- weak to elec, and even sparky can deal out respectable damage when we're talking about mobs who have weak resistances.

[quoteI do agree that Voltaic Sentinel is garbage and all it is good for is drawing extra aggro onto a blaster. However, Fire has 3 single target attacks, 2 AOEs and a sinper attack. You are right that Ice only has 3 single targets and no snipe but it more than makes up for that with it's holds and extremely fast activation times. Energy gets 3 single target hits and a snipe and AR gets 3 AOEs, 2 single target, and a sniper attack. AR is probably the second weakest single target blaster after electric but it's AOE attacks more than make up for that.

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I honestly forgot about the 3rd single target attack from Fire. Ice has amazing activation times, and can cycle thier attacks quickly enough that they can keep up a decent attack chain (with a natural space or two for buildup/aim). Fire, AR, Energy- these all have enough attacks that they will never have downtime if your'e going for pure DPS.

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Bottomline here is that Electric is getting the screw job in all areas. Do NOT be deceived by power descriptions or primary power set descriptions. Believe the numbers only.

-AZ

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Elec has..issues. WIth a full drain possiblity on a group quite regularly possible (yes, I don't think you can -keep them effectively at zero), you can at least slightly lower some of the return fire DPS. NOt as well as Ice, but still..some stuff.

I will not argue that elec is the redheaded step child of the blaster set. It is still a blaster, with good damage and some utility (that Hold is at least not horrible, if a little slow). And, hell, I like playing it.

Plus, I do regularly go toe-to-toe with 2 or 3 bosses and just not even worry about it. While that's pretty limited functionality, it's kinda fun to call out 'I got these guys' to my team, and proceed to take them down.

Don't hold your breath for changes, though. I don't think the devs are happy with -any- blasters' current ability, so upping it is probably not high on thier priority list.

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I haven't read every page in this thread yet, so I apologize if some points were made before. I am a bit perplexed about these concerns over Elec's secondary effect. Am I missing something, or do any of the other blaster primaries have really earth shattering secondary effects?

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The key thig that most of the posters (and I agree, to a lesser extent) are commenting on is that elec's end drain is only effective if it drops a foe below the activation cost of a given power. With villans' low end cost powers and quick regeneration, and the weak drain from most of elec's primary attacks, the secondary effect does not in -any- way apply, unless you are using one of the heavy draining attacks (specificly, Short Circuit).

For effective usage of end drain, you have to use a 6 slotted PBAoE power, with all green SOs, and usually have a backup power. In this, elec is unique. Doing it part way just doesn't cut it.

ON the other hand, no other side effect can stop 2-3 rounds worth of attacks on an entire group, or prevent them from using thier heavy damage/best attacks (though most of the end costs of thse are absurdly low, which nullifies the point). for a short while. Ice comes close with 2 holds, but elec has a hold in addition to the end draining potential.
The gripping hand is that end drain is not a viable lockdown method, though. Short of Power Boost/full slot Short Circuit you cannot stop a reprisal attack without some sort of controll or provoking, and at the level that you can use this to drain foes effectively anyone who provokes or controlls will do it better than you. Now that SO end drainers are available at 22, though, this might change a ltitle, for the short term. Even if you drain a foe, its' remarkably hard to get them to stay there, and they tend to run like scared little girls when they're locked out of end for more than a few seconds.

Then there's the Damage Per Second arguement. The simple fact is elec, over the extreme short term (~10 seconds), single target, counting from first attack, Elec outdamages any other primary line by a significant fraction, because of Voltaic Sentiel's (minor) concurrent damage.

However, over the slightly longer term electric looses horribly beacuse it only has 3 primary attacks, and even with permahasten there's a noticable downtime when waiting for them to cycle, unlike the other primary lines which have 4 (ice, for example, has 3 single targets and an AoE, fire 2 AoEs and 2 single targets). Voltaic sentiel, which does concurrent damage fairly unreiably and not very high damage. It's simply not effective enough to replace a 4th attack, even factoring in the non-holdablity (Autoturret blows this power away, in every fashion except for the mobility, and even that's questioanble).

Elec is hard to work with. In terms of damage, it's pure energy type (which not that many things resists, which is good- but those that do reist it heavily, which is bad), and about on par with Energy - quite good single target, so-so at AoE. The End drain is respectable at levels 4-15 or so and then again at 27-50, if tricky to use. Though I think elec could use some tweaks, it's not that far off course...

With regards to your comment/question about how useful End drain should be against AVs...elec is more or less a 'bosskiller' primary, and without even energy's KB vs minion abilities or Ice's Slow, easily overwhelmed by moderate to large spawns. Given that, i don't think it's unreasonable taht in certain specific situations given approprate support an elec blaster or two can tone down the level of viciousness of an AV's attacks.

Statesman's statement about this not withstanding, most seem to agree this is not even remotely the current case.

As of right now, elec is less useful than any other primary line vs AVs, discounting resitantces. All the other effects have a chance or even a certainty of in some minor away affecting the battle, but elec's has zero chance.

So you can see how a Dev stating we are 'outstanding' vs AVs (slight misquote, I know, but taken in context it seems a logical extension), raised some ire. Heck, an Ice Blaster can Hold an AV for a while, is it unreasonable to ask to be able to temporarily drain them (like a flicker stamina, similar to the flicker hold immunity)?


Ps- Still seekiing elec blasters to help with the AVs drain logged fights. I've got 2 AV missions (antimatter and nemisis Rex), and I need probably 2-3 more elec blasters to join, in adidtion to a fire or ice tank and some more kinetics might help. We are going to attempt to drain an AV with an inordinate amounto f end drain capibility, jsut to see if it's even possible, let alone viable.

Wow, lot of stuff I'd like to comment on.

First off, Pixel can definately drain bosses of up to about +2 in one shot- he's got Power Boost, which adds 3 grey Single origin drainers to -all- powers for about 15 seconds. He'll still have the keep-at-zero issues as the rest of us, but he can most certainly one shot everying in PBAoE, and probably keep them down for about 5 seconds or so (at a guess). This sort of one-shot is -only- possible for elec/energy, of which there are even fewer than elec/elec. As for why elec/energy has a notibly higher draining potential than elec/elec....take that one up with the devs.

Secondly, I personally think boss end drain is very -very- possible. IN fact, with my latest respeced into power combo that I figured out, I can do it without so much as getting a hit against me. SS+ stealth, activate Aim, turn on whirlwind, short circuit (timing is mildly tight), turn on Lighting Field, turn off Whirl, slam with Power Sink and be ready to Short Circuit again asap. Using this I can usually solo two even level bosses, though if there are any others in the near vincity I am in -serious- trouble (this includes minions). Tricky, requiring no less than 6 powers, and not reliable (Sc can miss, both bosses can tick up inbetween lighting field ticks- even if all hit-, all sorts of potential issue), and usually requires a two-slotted electric fence rapid-fired to stop them form running out of Melee range.

Elec does not hold bosses as well as ice, but it -can- disable all bosses in melee range (using power sink) just as well. And for the true power elec, a 6-slotted Power Sink -will- drain an even con boss to zero, followed by a SC to keep him there for a little while.

The biggest issue, in my mind, is the 'little while'. Short of SC, there is no other -recovery power in either the primary or secondary lines (discounting TB< because that's hardly a once a fight power). Lighting Field, which reads sort of like a power to keep them at zero, does not reliably do so with 1 acc and 5 end drain, agaist -1s. By reliably, I mean more than 15 seconds more than half the time (by my testing on Test). Yes, since elec's main strength is boss/lt only groups, fights do most definatley last more than 15 seconds, and unless you're switching targets quickly and lucky on top of it, you cannot keep more than -perhaps- two foes entirely drained- and if one of them stuns, sleeps, or holds you, they _will_ be back up at 'fighting end' in less than 5 seconds, regardless of SC.

A subissue is that fully drained mobs are not disabled or harmed in any other way, and almsot always do one thing- get the hell out of there. And the minute they're outside of melee range you're without recourse, because they sure aren't goign to stay drained if there are more than 2 of them (again, minions included). In fact, without an AoE immoblize you're kind of in trouble- and since you can't drain till 22 (assuming end drain SOs are available at contacs), exactly how many AoE immoblizers do -you- know who can't Hold at least as efficently?

But, hell, I can solo 2 even con bosses if they've got a minion friend, and I can do it without much risk. I usually get hit 2-3 times by the bosses, but over a 30-45 second fight that's not bad. Voltaic Sentiel even helps a little, when it doesn't wander off and try to make friends with that mob of 40 guys over there (which is a Pet problem, but most other pets don't wander -and- focus all aggro on the caster). Yeah, I have a lot more issues iwth a lot of mobs than many many people, but every once in a while....it's fun to be elec.

Frankly, I think there are a lot of things that need more work than elec. I'm glad that MA, Katana, and Dark Miasma got some love, and I'm very excited that the tanker AT (and hopefully specificly ice/earth) is getting look and work and stuff. I hope the devs will work at it, I hope that they will change stuff to make the game fun for more people.

I'd love some (minor) changes to elec- modify VS (frankly, I can't think of any change that would not at least be neutral), add a chance of -recovery to most or all powers (just a small chance would make a huge difference), maybe some minor increase on end drain, and can the end drain on SC at least be upped to that of Power Sink or Transference (considering it's the best end drainer of the primary line, not including TB, and there are at least 5 powers off the top of my head which do it better).

The reason behind this thread is quite simple. Statesman stated that end drain was outstanding vs Archvillans. Outstanding implies that it works on a level that makes it a -desirable- option, regardless of anything else. From even minimal testing, and I've attacked an AV with a kinetics defender and a fellow elec/elec, it appears that end drain is noneffective vs AVs. With 3 heavy draining attackers close to even level, we could barely even dent one. Admittedly, we weren't using Short Circuit, but I sure was using Thunderous Blast and Power Sink. Any stratagemn that would require more than 3 charecters of a specific type vs one foe....wow. Why not jsut grab 3 controllers with pets (esp gravity) and spam holds so the AV doesn't get a single attack off, ever? 3 controllers are certainly easier to find than 3 electric blasters (if anyone interprets this as a desire to nerf controllers, you're on some pretty good crack).

Exactly how much end drain for an 'outstanding' effect?

Personally, I find this the latest in some very inconsinstant answers and a whole lot of no responses with regards to end drain. I do feel that I am within reason to ask for a simple, consistant response- and I really think most people would agree that comparing Statesman's latest two responses when compared with his comment durring the Q&A chat, that's not a consistant response.

I'm not expecting tweaks, as I said in my other post- though I do think elec needs some help. What I would like is a couple of honest, long, explaining posts from the devs with regards to end drain and electricity- what exactly were thier designs? Failing that, I'd like them to stop claiming utility that does not exist- PVP functionality that may never come to fruition, or the high usefullness of end drain vs AVs. If we are good...fine. But when the devs throw us bones that we can't rely on, well, frankly, i'ts kind of insulting. It's like telling phase shifters 'Well, with a high end cost and high activation time it's costly, but at least you can walk through walls!'.

It's just not cool.

Edit: I was unable to do the AV end drain test tonight due to unexpectedly being called into work (damn you real life!), but I'm definately still up for it. Seeking any and all electric blasters, kinetics defenders, and a Fire or Ice tank, for end drain testing purposes. IF the devs are wrong (and I do think they are), wouldn't it be nice to be able to have pretty decent proof of it?

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I guess I'll wait to see how Crenson's test goes...because I don't even know 8 people with endurance drain attacks on Justice.

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I know maybe 4 around the same level on Freedom...at most.

Hence why I think we need to all copy over to Test. The AV will be 43, so the more people in the higher levels we can get, the better. Kineticsists, Electric blasters, ect. An Ice or a Fire tanker with thier end drains would help too.......

I'm pretty seirous about this. Heck, if nothing else, it's on test, so hardly much punishment if we loose.

Ya know......let's test.

I can get an AV mission, either this afternoon or late tonight/tomorrow. I am a level 42 elec, willing to SK. Please PM me with name, level, and available times, and let's copy over to Test and see what a full team of 8 elec blasters can do to an av.

Everyone, please try to have full slotted SC with green SOs, Thunderous Blast charged up with some end drain, and as much general end drain as possible.

I am pretty sure that even with a full team we're not going to have much luck (and I can't really see an arguement that would require more elec blasters than any variety of controller, but that's another amtter), but if we test, we'll know 100%, yes?

95% defense, with a 90% resist? INvul tankers can reach this, and the other tankers aren't too far behind.

'I'm sorry. Was I supposed to -feel that-? How do you feel about -this-! *squishy elec blaster sound*

End drain isn't psi, and no power in the elec blaster's repitore is nearly as good as, say, the Sappers. You notice how a tanker doesn't really have issue with Anti-matter....the elec blaster (tanker edition)? Of the 3 main end draining aiblities present in elec/elec, he doesn't seem to haev Thunderous Blast (The selfcost would be very high, and why owuld he drain his own end sinec we can't? Not to mention the outcry if he used a power this damaging), nor does he seem to have Short Circuit (this is probablyjust the devs being nice).

However, he does have (and use) power sink, as well as the inherent drain on all other attacks. Did any tankers notice e heavy end drain from him? I don't think there's a whole lot of chance of PvP powers being better- but I'm not a tanker and I couldn't survive a flury of his attacks well enough to notice end drain.

I am honestly not saying that end drain wasn't effective, but I would like to know if it was highly noticable or not. I do think that this is a somewhat valid representation of how the drain should work in PVP. Any comments on this from Scrappers/Tankers would be highly appreciated by me, I know. I've been told that the drain wasn't that high, but I'd like to have more confirmation.

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I ran through the mini-arc to stop Nemisis from forming a non-agression pact with CoT. I was the team leader and the mission owner. At the end of the mini-arc, my teammate scored the final hit to defeat that last mob. We both got the mission complete message, but only she got the Corruptor badge. I called the conact back and he said "Good job, no badge"

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Something seems odd with the rewards code for some missions. I duo'd the Frontline badge mission set - my compatriot got an immediate XP reward and the badge, I got no message at all. I may have received mission XP but there was no way to really check - 8k isn't really a noticable blip at level 35. I didn't get any messages (the green text in the chat window for rewards) when I went back to the contact, either, but when I checked my badges list, I had received the badge, even though there was no system message telling me that I had.

One thing - I went back to the contact physically instead of calling. Maybe that old bug has reared its head again?

I know it didn't have anything to do with damage to mobs, since, well, Mind Controller.

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Actually got a (possible) answer for this one, but it's kinda wierd.

I noticed the same behavior with the nemisis weather controll mini-arc. We completed th mission and everyone -else- said 'woo-hoo, badge!'. I, as team lead and mission owner, got nothin.

That is, untill everyone -exited- the misison. Not untill it was reset, or cleared, or completed, but when everyone left the mission suddenly I got the xp, the reward So, and a shiny new badge.

As to the how/why, I've no idea, but it happened.

Just chiming in, myself.

Superspeeding in the Shadow Shard, some of those nasty Rilaruu spawned litterally under me- then immedately held me and proceeded to kill. The same thing happened in PI with some spawning illusionists- again resulting in death.

I wasn't entirely sure this is a bug, but it certainly seems new to me. It might be connected with the very high incidence of lagbombs that have seemed to hit...

I'd love a fix on this, certainly if it's happening on the lower levels when there's less chance of being albe to survive it. I'm pretty new to PI/te shard so I thought this just might be a new 'feature' of the higher level mobs.

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We got a full group of 8 and did it about 2 days befoer patch 2 went live, so I'd expect to be oneo f the last to hear back, but I would in fact expect to hear -something-, at some point.


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Positron has said in another thread that if you did a TF BEFORE update 2 only the LEADER would get the TF badge. Its a limitation on datamining.

NO kill badges will be awarded pre-update 2.

Post update 2 everyone in the TF should get all the appropriate badges.

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I'm sorry, you're incorrect.

If you do a door mission that would normally reward iwth a badge, you do not get it unles it was your mission, pre-Issue 2. now if you are doing said mission, you will get it (save the Alexander Warrior mission, bugged).

This does not apply to TFs. They indicated they would be fully data mining for TFs, in numerous posts, irrespective of who is the leader.

RE: the kill badge, it is a -requirement- to complete the TF to kill Jurassik. Anyone who has done this TF must have killed him- unlike the Synapse/skyway one where killing babbage is optional. Since there is no way to do the TF and not get a badge, I odn't think its' unreasonable to request the kill badge with it- but if its' a no, I'll understand, I'd just like a dev to realize the above is in fact true (and the stated reason for not retroactively giving kill badges does not apply here).

No offense intended, I think you just got some wires crossed.

Also- I didn't have frontline on Live, but I took the mission- and I have it on test. I think it's because it's a mission they reworked and added new stuff to, so they flagged it as 'not done' so the contact would offer it. Obviously they still have the data for it, so I suspect that'll be patched when we get the new stuff from Test.

I'm in the same boat....
and so is everyone I did the Numina TF with.

We got a full group of 8 and did it about 2 days befoer patch 2 went live, so I'd expect to be oneo f the last to hear back, but I would in fact expect to hear -something-, at some point.

This was not an easy tf, and most of the members have leveld out of the now-smaller range since then, so this is not something I'm looking forward to having to redo.

In addition, I would very much like the Jurrasik badge- because unlike the synapse TF, Jurassik -is- a required part of this badge, and there is no way to get it that does not involve killing him.

IN any case, just an update with a revised rough ETA would be nice, imho. Let us know you're still working on it, devs, if only in general vauge terms.