Combat
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Quote:I absolutely HATE arguments like the previous (apologies to the poster that I quoted from). Oftentimes I see people cheer when changes are made that affect high-end builds negatively, regardless of the affect on their on own character.
...but I am saying I have little regard for those whose arguments are not based in refuting problems of the IXX changes, but who are trying to selfishly protect the bad mechanics they've successfully leveraged for their own gain.
Sometimes, it applies fairly to things that are too far above the standard or using broken mechanics (old-PSW, Toggle-IH, I0 Smoke Grenade). However, a lot of times it is used as a standard argument for any change that affects min-maxed builds more than others. By definition, a min/max build is one that is optimized to take advantage of game mechanics. However, most of what min/maxers do is NOT exploitative. We use IO sets in order to get high recharge, we carefully manage pool powers and defense bonuses to get to the soft-cap, and we use procs in order to eke the last bit of performance from powers, and none of those were considered exploits until recently.
And that makes me angry. To me, optimization is a part of the game as fun as playing the game itself. Others like designing costumes, roleplaying, or any other activity, but I like to my characters that can do impressive things for their AT, powerset combination, or just in general. For some reason, this playstyle is often vilified in ways that other playstyles never are even when it often has no negative affect on other players.
When people say "I have little regard for those who are trying to selfishly protect the bad mechanics they've successfully leveraged for their own gain," it is offensive to me. It is especially offensive when the change affects something that has been constant for a long time or has been granted the WAI tag by developers.
For instance, see the proposed I24 proc changes. Procs have behaved in a roughly similar way since IOs were first added to the game, and the developers have never before had a problem with the way procs behaved, in the sense that the general mechanism was considered fine even when certain procs/powers were unbalanced. Yes, procs worked in a way that penalized some powers and aided others, but that was generally understood and still was an accepted part of the game. But now, I and others that utilized the nature of existing procs in order to enhance our gameplay are "selfishly trying to protect the bad mechanics for their gain."
It also angers me when people dismiss criticisms of those like me because they do not enjoy or participate in optimization, or do not do so to the same degree. The sentiment that a nerf to min/maxed builds is okay because it doesn't affect a casual player is the same as me thinking that a change that made Cat Ears unusable is okay because I don't use Cat Ears. Yes, it is easy to paint those that optimize as bad-guys and other playstyles as the good guys, but the playstyle is just as valid and will continue as long as the game exists. There is no reason to attack people like me for the way we play the game, and the vilification on virtually every thread about game balance is unnecessary.
Thank you, and have a good day. -
Not much would make me quit. It would have to make a lot of characters I put effort in less effective or broken.
I use IOs a lot, so maybe this. -
Quote:How about this:Originally Posted by Arcanaville
A specific example would make it easier to test that claim, and under what set of conditions it could be true.
Incidentally, you're aware that numerically speaking Rage on a Brute has the net effect of increasing damage by about twelve percent, factoring in the crash, right? More is better, and Rage is more, but its not the same kind of jump in damage that it is on Tankers (~ thirty percent more damage, almost the difference between having two and having three comparable AoEs).
Let's assume staff is using its best possible chain, which would be something like GS-IS-GS-EotS. We will assume FoB, and the bonus damage/-res for EotS.
Said chain would deal 5.662 base damage after -res, 32.783 if all hit their max targets. It does that in 9.11 seconds, so it will vary between .622 base DS per second and 3.5986 base DS per second. Assuming FoB and 95% enhancement, 1.306 DS/s and 7.56 DS/s. On brutes, if we assume a 150% boost from Rage, those numbers rise to 2.2392 DS/s and 12.955 DS/s.
Therefore, SS on tankers will need to exceed 7.56 base DS/s to beat's Staff's max, and on Brute's it will need 12.955.
First, let's look at single rage on both ATs.
With no recharge, tanker footstomp deals 1.79 DS/s at max (assuming a 10 second wait every 120 seconds). At the recharge cap, it would deal 8.95 at max. Therefore, it is possible for a tanker to overtake staff with just FS with high recharge, using only single rage. The point at which FS alone matches Staff's greatest potential is 322% recharge with a single application of rage.
However, let's add in one other AoE. The worst DPC is Dark Obliteration, so I'll use that as my base. Adding that to the equation reduces the recharge point to 158%. Therefore, a SS tanker could fairly easily overtake the max DPS of Staff even with only a single stack of rage, as they would only need about 100% recharge from non-enhancement sources. This is only a little greater than the benefit providing by hasten + quick reflexes, so almost possible without extensive IOing. In fact, a force feedback proc can provide about 50% of +recharge at the target cap.
On Brutes, the number goes up. If fury provides an equal benefit to both sets (and at the target cap, both set's will likely reach high levels of fury despite pauses), than it would take 227% recharge for FS + DO to beat the best Staff chain with only a single application of rage.
If we use 2 rage stacks, the recharge number for tanks goes down to 120% recharge. This is low enough to do essentially without IOs, if someone could get double-rage without any IO recharge bonus.
For brutes, double-rage reduces the necessary recharge down to 165% recharge. This is will within the feasibility range as well.
Now, if we were attacking exactly 5 targets, Staff would probably be at its strongest point relative to SS. At that point tank Staff would deal 6.21 DS/s, and brute Staff would deal 10.65.
Against only 5 targets, tank Staff would need to get 397% recharge with single rage. That is unfeasible. Double rage reduces that to a slightly more palatable 323% recharge. That is possible, with FF, Hasten, and enhancements reducing that to 108% recharge, but highly unlikely. I'm assuming that it would be unfeasible for brutes.
Of course, all this assumes that the tank is using the worst possible additive AoE (I'm ignoring AoEs with recharges over 32, because those generally aren't capable of being used in every fight). If we switch to mu mastery for the two AoEs, and use double rage, tanks need only 57.8% to match Staff at max targets, and 194% to match staff against 5 targets, both of which are well within the realm of feasibility.
On brutes, those numbers shift to 90% at max and 254% at 5 targets.
Therefore, I can safely say that it is possible for a SS Brute or Tanker to beat the best possible Staff chain under a large variety of circumstances. If they have double-rage, they will almost certainly beat it in any situation (requiring a total of 334% for brutes and 260% recharge for tanks to beat the best staff chain with just FS). Even using single rage, the max AoE of Staff is fairly easily eclipsed with a single patron AoE. SS can even beat Staff at it's forte (5 targets) with double rage and with multiple patron/epic AoEs.
There you go, math. Only thing I probably should have accounted for is animation times of SS, but because SS will not form chains easily that can be ignored in most cases. -
For about the first four years I played, my favorite character was my first 50, an Empathy/Dark defender. Great on teams (especially small teams), but not easy to solo.
For a while, my favorite character was a SS/SR brute that was minimally slotted, and he was a good character, but no where near the SS/Fire brutes that populate most of brutedom.
For a considerable of time, my DM/SD was my favorite character. He was very, very good at single target damage and surviving, but his AoE wasn't incredible. Still, any toon that can solo a MoITF in under an hour without purples or PvP IOs is probably fairly powerful.
My TW/Elec is pushing the borders of ridiculously OP. Hits like a hypersonic jet, beats up AVs and GMs easily, survivable, great AoE, etc. Until the latest version of his build though, I still had to rely on outside buffs to have a continuous single target attack chain, as he drains my endurance like mad.
Currently, the characters I'm playing aren't broken OP, just solidly "good". I'm working on a Street Justice/Ice Stalker, a Staff/Dark Stalker, and a Mace/Fire scrapper. Of the 3, I'm most impressed with the Mace/fire. -
Quote:I've never played a SS/Fire character. I already said my experience was with /SR and /SD brutes and a Invul tanker, none of which were incredibly IOed (ie <100 million). If I remember right, the SR had just enough to get to 45%, about 25% recharge buffs, and the +recharge proc from FF, and the SS/SD had about the same amount. At the time I was playing them, brutes didn't have access to the fire epic, and I chose Mu on one character and Leviathan on the other, because neither made sense with Soul or Mace. I think it is fair to say that I know more about the SS powerset than you, and it doesn't take /Fire to be one of the best AoE sets in the game. You know what they say about assuming.Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
That's an interesting claim seeing as the only way for a SS brute to have an aoe chain is to go either Mu or Leviathan and take every aoe on offer. Even then you'll be constantly shuffling around to take advantage of cones. If you mean a "close enough" gappy chain then the only option is Mu and you essentially have to focus on recharge and nothing else. Staff's aoe chain doesn't require anywhere near the same level of build focus, is trivially easy to fire at melee range without taking advantage of the cone dance due to the large arcs on its cones, and is also easily gapless.
Heh instead of waiting for a reply and returning with a rejoinder, though, you obviously are referring exclusively to SS/FA/Mu. That's one combination. SS/FA/Mu is pretty cool but you don't get to call it baseline performance for SS. It is the most cookie cutter of builds and it's lucky for you fans of SS that the devs don't judge performance based on specific set combinations. If they looked at SS/FA/Mu in the same way you're trying to use it to claim that staff is underperforming, all of the sets involved would be nerfed by next week.
And about the "cookie-cutter build" required to make SS good at AoE... I could make at AoE build with SS with only FS, one patron/epic AoE and the FF proc. No other IOs, no HOs, no other damage buffs besides Rage, so no "super-tight build focus". FS does more damage in less time than Eye of the Storm (and the recharge on Eye of the Storm isn't much faster), and does significantly more DPC (Damage per Cycle) and DPA than Eye of the Storm when accounting for Rage. When you add any patron or epic AoE, you get better AoE damage than Staff can do with its three AoEs, even with only 2 AoE attacks.
TW has more damage by having stronger AoEs in greater numbers (WS had a DPA better than any staff SINGLE target attack, and a quicker recharge time than EotS). Claws has a large number of powerful AoEs and the same type of +damage buffing as SS, thought they benefit less because of redraw. -
Quote:The experience I had with SS is that it would probably just be "good" with Footstomp. However, when I add 2 more AoEs from patron sets, and combine them with Rage, I instantly get an AoE chain that Staff cannot compete with (for the record, my SS brutes were SS/SR and SS/SD, not SS/Fire, and my tank with Invul/SS). That is largely due to the bonus damage from Rage, which is significant even on Brutes.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
That's a feeling. I don't think its fair to say that Staff computes lower than Titan Weapons, but even if SS computes lower than Staff that's ok because it feels fine.
Unless you have a full AoE chain, what usually matters for AoE is not DPA, but DPC - damage per cycle second, or average damage per second per AoE. And no one has a full AoE chain composed of only Foot Stomp.
Yes, you can add AoE damage to SS, but you can do that to all sets. You have to be consistent with your comparison, or else you run the very high risk of comparing Staff to every other set with a different set of metrics each one designed to make Staff look bad.
Realistically speaking, its extremely difficult for anything with less than three legitimate AoEs to out-AoE something with three. Titan Weapons has four: its a top AoE performer. Claws also has four, but it also suffers from a Castle miscalculation that makes all of its AoEs do more damage than intended. Staff is probably one of the better 3-AoE sets in AoE damage particularly when its intrinsic recharge buff is factored in.
Another area where imprecise comparisons can be problematic. You compared Claws and SS to Staff, so you're talking about Brutes, and Rage is diluted for Brutes: it can't have the same incremental benefit to AoEs as it can on Tankers. But if we switch our comparison point to Tankers, Claws, Katana, and Broadsword disappear and Ice Melee and Martial Arts enter. For Tankers, the net result of that swap is probably going to make Staff look somewhat better, because while Broadsword has low single target damage, Martial Arts has much lower AoE and Ice Melee has low everything.
By combining all the sets you're ranking Super Strength based on Rage's performance for Tankers, but then also comparing Staff to Claws and Katana which Tankers don't get. That skews the comparison when it comes to rankings.
Staff will likely beat out most sets not named Super Strength with 1 AoE. It will likely be behind TW and Claws because TW gets tons of high-damage AoEs and Claws gets both a large number of AoEs and a decent damage buff.
Staff is good at AoE, but because Form of Body is so insignificant and other sets can supplement their AoE (to be fair, so can staff, though usually the benefits of having extra AoEs aren't very great if you can chain 3 together), I just have a hard time claiming them as a top tier.
AoEs are harder to judge than single target attacks though, so I usually don't try to go into numerical comparisons of AoE sets. -
Quote:I'm not going to insult you. I'm just going to ignore you.Originally Posted by Lucky666
LOLOL with that last MA build you posted to prove MA could get 300 dps except it was such a terrible build no smart person would play and now this advice I'm just gonna assume you solo pylons all day long lol.
PS Temp powers don't work in incarnate trials and inspirations don't drop nearly as often when teamed with 24 others.
Please no one should ever follow any of this guys advice it's just plain bad with a capital B.
But if you think I'm silly or stupid, read this
I know what I'm talking about. I made a concept build to prove a point (MA could reach a certain level of DPS, and achieve that with a good build given Assault), but I know full well how to build an effective build. I started playing in May 2004, and I've used those endurance tips to level many characters without good endurance tools.
BTW, actual damage numbers are simply not very useful. Would you take an attack that deals 5000 damage base if it took 5 days to activate? Staff isn't bad because it's T9 deals low damage, but because it doesn't do enough damage for its activation time.
As I level a few Staff characters, I'm beginning to think that the easiest fix would be to make Form of Mind and Form of Body more useful. I could see doubling the values of each of the forms, making each form about as useful as an SO. -
Quote:I'm not sure Staff would end up in fourth place. For one thing, it cannot take Shield, which will slightly hurt its potential (my DM/SD did decent AoE just from Fireball and Shield Charge). I was simply saying that those 3 sets were definitely better, but the Staff would definitely beat single target focused sets (MA, Katana/BS, DM, etc.). So its at a point where it beats out sets that aren't focused on AoE without getting to the point that it competes with the top sets. Probably "balanced" AoE. However, a lot of AoE can be added just from patrons and epics, and Staff isn't as good as a few sets at buffing those attacks.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
That's a play of wording. If Staff is "close to last" in single target, it is also "close to first" in AoE. Its in fourth place by your reckoning out of sixteen sets (only Brutes have both Claws and SS, so I'm assuming the ordinal comparison is there). That is the top 25% of all sets in AoE, and it presumes sets like SS actually outdo Staff. If you consistently saturate the target cap, that might be true, but in lots of other situations its unlikely something with one AoE can beat something with three.
So I'd put it in a tier of powersets that do okay AoE, but aren't "farm-sets". That would include Dual Blades (largely because of combining blinding feint with outside AoEs), War Mace, maybe Spines. I can't say for certain is better than those sets.
And while Super Strength only has one AoE, usually that AoE is combined with others, and those are stronger because of rage. And I've never found my SS tankers or brutes to feel like anything less than #1 in AoE in virtually every situation, regardless of number AoEs. -
Quote:That seems like a good build. Personally, my stalker is a /dark, and I'm aiming for a high-survivability build. My goal was to reach the incarnate cap when using Shadow Meld, and to combine that with perma-hasten. Incarnates will be Agility, Degenerative, Ageless, (Assault).Originally Posted by Granite Agent
Wb, Combat. I figured you had unsubbed - tried to PM you the other day.
Anyway here is my Staff/ELA stalker, posted this on the stalker forum. Don't know why MIDS isn't exporting my +5 IOs -- all the KCs in MB, recharge IOs, endo IOs, all +5d.
I can't really tell if the recharge time of AS is correct out of hide? I am thinking of ways to optimize and wondering about splitting the stalker IO set to replace some KCs and pick up a slot or two.
The Mako's are SBEs for more proccitude. Tried the SBE build-up proc in SR, but it didn't seem to fire that often and had a short duration.
Attack chain is MB-SR-AS-SS which Microcosm said is just about as good as MB-PS-AS-SS but I wanted a ranged attack and didn't have room for PS and SR.
Thinking about picking up Ageless. Torn between that and rebirth. Don't really need the recharge of Ageless.
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Personally, the chain I am running is PS-SR-AS-SS. When I looked at the various chains, it appeared like PS would enough damage to overcome the -res affect of MB. To tell for yourself, use Arcanaville's method to calculate -res from procs, which if I remember right is 20*(10 / time of chain * 4 + 10). The base DS of the MB chain is 11.47 in 7.392 seconds, for 1.552 DSpS. Therefore, the -res would be 3.08 if I am doing this correctly. So the base DPS would go to about 1.6. In contrast, the base DPA for the PS chain is 1.589. So the difference between the chains is very, very minimal. Personally, I prefer to use a hard hitter because I find that it makes exemplaring easier (combined with +recharge bonuses from purples). I do believe that it would be better to have SR in the chain for the purple.
And I've been unsubbed for a while due to finance, but plan to resub around May. Premiums cannot respond to PMs, which is why I never responded. When I do, I'll post my updated build and update my TW/Elec thread (I've since added an alternate build with crushing blow and 45% to smashing and lethal, and most importantly a sustainable attack chain). I should also get time to try that build on a Pylon. -
Plastic surgery. We all know Mother Mayhem isn't entirely real, if you know what I mean. Neither are many of the "female" Seers. It all makes sense.
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Quote:I beat youOriginally Posted by Kirsten
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Quote:Stalkers are different. Having 1 second attack with a potential 5.4 DS is very powerful. I haven't actually mathed it up, but it could be the best DPA attack in the game.Originally Posted by Hopeling
Er... I seem to recall it being very rare to see any build at all breaking 250 DPS before Incarnate powers. The ones that did usually had stuff like perma-saturated-Soul Drain and/or Against All Odds.
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Quote:Poe's Law.Originally Posted by Kitsune Knight
How can people possibly believe PleaseRecycle is serious?!?!?!
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Most sets will probably pretty easily get 250 without a ton of help (incarnates, purples, assault, etc.). Some may top 300.
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Quote:Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Sky splitter also does 20% more damage than you're giving it credit for 85% of the time. It fits into staff's concise top chain with much more reasonable recharge than it takes to get crushing uppercut usable with similar frequency. Most importantly to me, it gives totally unique defensive bonuses when it consumes perfection: CU is nice but let me know when it gives you permable slotted health and stamina on top of the bonus endurance discount you're getting just because of the set you're using. You say you love the deadly efficiency of tomaytoes, I say I prefer the broad staying power of tomahtoes.
Serpent's reach is a ranged attack masquerading as melee attack in terms of all of its stats. That's very significant not just for the combat utility of it but also because it allows you to slot apocalypse in a power you're actually going to use in your chain instead of in an APP mule. I know you know the value of that and I also don't believe that you seriously think that focus is an average attack. Being part of a set that lets you fire it off with a permanent 112.5% damage buff pushes its already-great DPA into the stratosphere, considering claws was once widely thought to be worse than you guys are now calling staff for single target damage.
Between those two powers, staff's top chain has considerable mitigation built in. Staff's aoe chain, GS-IS-GS-EotS, has even more mitigation than that as well as -res, immob and an amazing spot for a FotG proc. Most sets don't even have an aoe chain, but all of this stuff is in addition to the form bonuses. Again I state that there is no way on earth that staff gets to keep all of this in addition to increased damage.
It shouldn't matter whether or not Serpent's Reach is ranged or melee. This isn't I0, and range is not a defense or a penalty. The fact of the matter is that Serpent's Reach is a long animation, fairly low damage power considering it is one of the best attacks in the set.
Most sets don't need an AoE Chain. In fact, the best set has only ONE AoE. In a world where every melee character can get one or two AoEs from patrons/epics, having good AoE is not about having 3 AoEs from your primary.
Staff is second tier in AoE (first tier being TW, SS, Claws). Close to last in single target. Probably first in mitigation, though not ridiculously better than Katana, Broadsword, etc. It's main distinction is that is has better AoE than the bad sets with some perks. To me, that isn't balanced, and shouldn't be what we balance the game around. That was the way we balanced the game back in the distant past, and it serves only to create crazy OP sets (SS), and horrible sets (DM pre-I3). Perks are extra, damage isn't, and that's the way we should balance the game. -
Quote:Where's your Damage Serum to eliminate damage concerns? Where is the damage buff from empowerments? The point is that I can do about 99 things to fix my endurance problems. Every single one of those suggestions is open to all characters, available anytime, and not incredibly expensive.Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Note that I never said anything about animation times and do not accept that you are correct that the devs don't consider them.
Your endurance fix there has precisely the same issue as your suggestion of ageless. It works, but it's situational and there are tradeoffs. In this case the tradeoff happens to be the same: you sacrifice "survivability" inspirations for endurance inspirations. If you're willing to make that trade, boffo, enjoy your TW/DA. I'm sure it will wreck many faces. I'm glad that not every powerset is cut from the same cloth, the game would be much more homogeneous if that were the case.
Endurance completely aside, your proposal ignores many other things about staff fighting. Serpent's reach is the second best melee set ranged attack behind focus, and it beats all of the others by a huge margin. Sky splitter, like eye of the storm, does substantial bonus damage with noteworthy special effects as a part of the set's top chain. Precise strike is a solid if bland attack that by your own analysis is competitive with the likes of shin breaker, street justice's second best attack. Street justice, I remind you, has been put on a pedestal in this and other staff threads as "one of the good ones." Compared to staff, its bag of tricks looks like it came in a Cracker Jack box. What does it really have apart from the one big attack? That makes such a big difference to you? I don't see why.
And why should it matter that Serpent's Reach is the second best ranged attack already? It is just an attack. Focus is just an attack. And it isn't an amazing one, just an average one. Buffing it to make Staff more competitive in single target makes sense, and shouldn't be rejected just because "ranged attacks have to suck".
Since you brought it up, let's compare Street Justice to Staff to see why people like Street Justice so much more in single target.
Precise Strike has similar DPA to Shin Breaker. However, Shin Breaker has the ability to slot a achilles heel proc, and is likely being boosted by Rib Cracker's -res.
Sky Splitter is very similar to Crushing Uppercut. Both are heavy hitting T9s that gain damage from combos. However, Sky Splitter's long animation time reduces its DPA enough that it is one of the worst single target T9s, while Crushing Uppercut is one of the best even before combos.
And while Street Fighting doesn't have endurance reduction or recharge, it does have a good bag of tricks:
-Resistance and -damage from Rib Cracker
Small chances to stun in a few powers, plus 100% from Crushing Uppercut.
Terrorize from Spinning Strike
Chance to slot achilles' heel in Shin Breaker for even more -res
But mainly, it has one great attack and -resists. Staff has no great attacks and no -resist (ignoring Eye of the Storm because using it in a single target chain lowers DPA even counting for -res). The fact that a level 1 power is its best DPA attack is a problem. -
Quote:Does my anecdotal experience back my predictions up? Yes, mine does.Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Does your in-game experience back that up? Mine doesn't. I often see SS/FAs wonder aloud why they're dying on a Tin Mage or what have you after their endurance bar took a long walk off a short pier. Even more true of TW characters in general. For how easy the forums think endurance management is, a lot of people seem to have trouble with it! I don't always build for sustainable endurance in all situations myself because that can be a build-compromising challenge in some cases.
Your criterion is too simplistic. Don't you find it odd that the people who make the game have such a radically different weighting of the value of damage set features?
Along with 118 pages in the Rikti Pylong Results Thread. But that type of non-empirical evidence is less than worthless, especially for balancing sets.
And the people who make this game have very simple formulas, that completely ignore one of the most important parts of an attack: the animation. Some powersets were designed with animation as part of the equation (Widows for example), but most aren't. It basically is a crap-shoot for the sets that don't, and staff is punished with long animations. Please don't try to say that we should ignore animations just because the devs sometimes do. And if you think endurance sustainability is a holy grail, let me explain something:
I can solve everyone's end problems in three steps.
1. Make the Recovery Serum
2. Make the +recovery buff from the empowerment station
3. Spend 100,000 influence to buy Second Winds from the market*
*If 100,000 inf isn't throwaway money for you, replace second winds with catch a breaths.
My criterion measures potential. It isn't a perfect way to do that, but it does the job.
And if you are wondering my suggestions would do for Staff:
Staff Fighting (with Combat's changes)
Serpent's Reach: 1.2376
Sky Splitter: 1.0998
Precise Strike: 1.05
Which isn't ridiculous. Just competitive. Which is where I think staff should be. -
Quote:I'm going to speak in reverse order here:Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Specifically to try to account for that, I created a metric a while back that attempted to guestimate the damage potential of an attack set by attempting to add up the effective DPS of the best attacks as ranked by DPA, with the understanding that the total amount of time that the attacks could take could not exceed 100% of the total cycle time percentage. I called it PeakDR. One thing PeakDR did very well was explain why Broadsword had measurably lower single target damage than Katana. The problem is that while DPA can judge the best attacks to use, DPA alone doesn't tell you how often you can use that attack, and by extension to what degree it influences total DPS. Imagine inserting an attack that does 0.1 scale damage in 0.01 seconds with 20 second recharge to an attack chain. It has 10 DS/sec DPA which is huge, but its net effect will be small because its DPS is low and the amount of time you spend using it - what I call attack efficiency is low (the ratio of cast time to cycle time).
If you take all the attacks in a powerset and list them in descending order by DPA, and then for each attack calculate its cycle time (cast + recharge) its efficiency (cast / cycle time), and its DPS (damage / cycletime) and then tally a running sum of efficiency and DPS, at the point where efficiency becomes greater than 1.0 you take the DPS Sum and divide by the efficiency sum. That's the PeakDR estimated damage rating for that powerset. If you vary recharge times by a specified recharge speed factor, you can calculate this dynamically for different levels of recharge.
I have a spreadsheet which I need to update for new powersets, but PeakDR beautifully shows that Broadsword has two problems. The first is that its attacks have low efficiency. That means you need more of them to make a complete attack chain, or alternatively more recharge. This means you have to go deeper into the set to make a full chain, and that runs into the second problem with Broadsword: after the first three attacks all with decent DPA, DPA fall off a cliff with Broadsword. Going from the third best attack to the fourth for Katana goes from Gambler's Cut at approximately 1.0 DS/sec (assuming 10% criticals) to Sting of the Wasp at about 0.97. Broadsword goes from Disembowel at 1.09 to Slash at 0.69. That, well, disembowels Broadsword's single target DPS.
You need a lot of recharge to eliminate that problem: enough to never need Slash. And that's a lot of recharge. If you can do that, BS can catch up with Katana, but Katana will still likely have a few percentage points of edge (PeakDR's margin for error averages about 5% for most actual powersets).
Incidentally, assuming I've entered the numbers correctly into this old spreadsheet, PeakDR predicts Staff Fighting's single target damage to be roughly comparable to Claws, depending on the amount of recharge, and not counting the effects of Follow Up or Form buffs or debuffs (but counting form bonus damage on sky splitter).
Incidentally, Broadsword's three top DPA attacks do not have better cyclical DPS than Katana's. Golden Dragonfly and Soaring Dragon both edge out Head Splitter and Hack, and Gambler's Cut smokes them all. Also, somehow you omitted Golden Dragonfly as the best DPA attack for Katana.
First, the program I made to get data from city of data had a mistake on Golden Dragonfly, and listed its DS and animation as the same, making it a .94 DPA attack instead of a 1.32. So put Katana where it belongs, probably around Dual Blades/Martial Arts.
Secondly, I was trying to find the simplest possible way to show a set's potential. Recharge and endurance are practical concerns that are very important to gameplay, but it takes much more to make up for a lack of damage than to overcome high recharge rates or endurance costs. A spines/sr scrapper simply doesn't possess the basic tools to out damage a war mace/shield scrapper.
PeakDR is a good concept to show where sets usually end up damage wise. If I had the time, I probably would have done something similar. But I think that taking the best three attacks is a very simple way of showing the difference between powersets to a layperson.
Unfortunately, it does have problems, and the biggest is that some powersets rely on other factors rather than base DPA to create damage. Claws is a great example, because a lot of Claws DPS comes from followup adding 37.5% +damage per stack, which is more than double the contribution from Form of Body. Really, I should have taken the powers and multiplied by (1.95 + average damage buff)*(1+average -res)+acceptable procs. However, I simply didn't have the time.
I find the breakpoint is about 1.32. A good DPS set usually has at least one power over 1.32 base DPA with a decent cycle time, without a significant drop-off in the other powers, OR significant forms of +dam. The "meh" point is around 1.00 DPA, and anything below that simply starts to feel weak. Though nothing compares to Barb Swipe's .35 DPA, worse than almost every set's AoE. -
Quote:That's what I thought too, but it turns out Broadsword's 3 best attacks are better in DPS. However, that is probably balanced out by an increased endurance cost and recharge time, and the way faster animations allow for more procs/reactive stacks.Originally Posted by UberGuy
Hm, something is off in that, though. Well, at least in the ranking at the end. I don't think BS comes out particularly near Katana in practical displays of sustained DPS.
-
Quote:Yes, but ageless is worth about 3ish end recovery at a minimum if I remember right, and 8 when at max. .Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I assumed one proc per attack because I did not think it was possible to squeeze two per attack and still get enough damage, recharge, and endurance reduction to make the SK-CK-SK-CAK chain practical. You added procs and sacrificed endurance reduction to get high enough recharge, and that means SK-CK-SK-CAK burns 35.21 endurance, or about 6.07 eps. The build has a net recovery of 1.97, which means not counting the endurance burn of PB or the endurance costs of Hasten, that chain is sustainable for only about 24 seconds. Factoring in the average costs of PB (slotted for end reduction since recharge isn't needed there) and Hasten would reduce that to about 23 seconds.
If you are willing to go all out on procs like that, a comparable Staff build should also rise significantly.
You are right though, I usually slot an end reduction instead of another proc. But many of my builds do use 2-3 procs per attack. Basically, my attack priorities are:
Get the recharge to run the best chain
Get attacks to 95% against +3s
Slot for 90+% damage enhancement
1 End Reduction
Proc Proc Proc
The first two can be done in many cases with IOs, leaving a lot of space in a 6 slotted attack for procs. -
Quote:One way I'd do that is to compare the DPA of the set's best three attacks. Usually that consists of the Tier 9, a single target attack taken between 12 and 26, and the stronger of the two starter attacks. If this is taken in combination with damage buffs (Rage/Follow Up), -res, bonus damage (Staff/Stj), and extra crit chance (MA), you can directly compare different powersets. For instance, here are all the scrapper primaries.Originally Posted by UberGuy
It is a bit distracting, though.
What I mean by that is that if we talk about what MA can deliver using a build probably no one would play, and mention that Staff can't approach that using it's most similarly single-minded build, that sends a message that may not be (as) applicable to builds more like what people really would play.
If we don't devote every scrap of effort to DPS, what does that do to the practical difference in ST DPS we're likely to see? Such a question may have to be answered in broader terms rather than single DPS numbers, but I suspect it's a more useful question to answer.
Battle Axe (BU only)
Swoop: 1.21 DPA
Gash: 1.20 DPA
Cleave: 1.16 DPA
Broadsword (BU, achilles heel procs in every attack)
Head Splitter: 1.19
Hack: 1.08
Disembowel: 1.04
Claws (Follow Up, fury of the glad proc, 3 purples)
Focus: 1.11
Shockwave: .928
Eviscerate: .912
Follow Up: .795
Dual Blades (combos, blinding feint, achilles heel proc)
Sweeping Strike: 1.35
Ablating Strike: 1.17
Blinding Feint: .588
Dark Melee (Soul Drain)
Midnight Grasp: 1.29
Smite: 1.17
Siphon Life: .97
Electric Melee (BU)
Chain Induction: 1.17
Jacobs Ladder: .85
Charged Brawl: .84
Fiery Melee (BU)
Incinerate: 1.42
Cremate: 1.24
Greater Fire Sword: 1.13
Katana (BU, achilles' in every attack)
Soaring Dragon: 1.19
Gambler's Cut: .95
Sting of the Wasp: .92
Kinetic Melee (power siphon)
Concentrated Strike: 1.17
Smashing Blow: 1.07
Body Blow: .922
Martial Arts (BU, Eagle's Claw)
Storm Kick: 1.38
Crippling Axe Kick: 1.20
Crane Kick: 1.11
Spines (BU, Quills)
Ripper: .98
Throw Spines: .76
Impale: .75
Staff Fighting (2 Purples, FoB)
Precise Strike: 1.05
Sky Splitter: .95
Serpent's Reach: .95
Street Justice (CR, RC's -res, achilles heel, 2-3 purples, combos)
Crushing Uppercut: 1.41
Shin Breaker: 1.09
Rib Cracker: .875
Sweeping Cross: .85
Titan Weapons (Momentum, BM, Rend Armor's -res, 2 achilles' heel procs, fury of the glad proc, 2 purples)
Rend Armor: 1.34 wo/M; 2.32 with
Follow Through: 2.133
Arc of Destruction: 1.03 wo/M; 1.78 with
Crushing Blow: .844 wo/M; 1.30 with
War Mace (BU, smashing procs)
Clobber: 2.11
Shatter: 1.65
Pulverize: 1.45
So what can we tell?
Staff doesn't have any outstanding attacks, and unlike most other sets in that situation has very little it can do to increase damage. A general rule of thumb is the -res is at least two times as valuable as +damage after enhancements. In regards to other sets, the probably rank as such:
1. TW
2. War Mace
3. Street Justice
4. Dark Melee (soul drain is very powerful)
5. Dual Blades
6. Martial Arts
8. Fiery
9. Battle Axe
10. Claws
11. Katana = Broadsword
13. Staff
14. Electric
...
52. Spines (yes, spines is THAT bad). -
Quote:I SAID THAT.Originally Posted by Lucky666
That build is meh at best. No heal aid self or even rebirth since you said you needed ageless which means chugging greens, low HP even with all the accolades on, tough is slotted poorly, no travel power, no eagles claw for the added crit bonus for dragons tail.
Might get the DPS you speak of but wont get the job done in hard content like incarnate trials so unless you just like soloing pylons all day ya this build just wouldn't actually cut it.
Ahem.
"Just a theoretical construct of course".
Don't judge me because I did exactly as I said: created a build that got 300. The fact the build is piss-poor and not anything I would ever touch doesn't mean that isn't exactly as advertised. In fact, I pretty much said that it wasn't a good build.
My point was that it was possible, even without the buff from Hybrid Assault. Basically, I can get MA to 300, by the skin of my teeth (though really, I could get a more workable build up using the same tactics). The same extreme level of sacrifice won't work with Staff.
Now, if you'd like me to derail the thread more and post a GOOD MA/SR build, I guess I could. But again, that isn't the point. -
Quote:What about something like this? 40.5% damage buff, tons of procs, requires ageless. Just a theoretical construct of course, but technically possible.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Lets say every one of those attacks was slotted with a proc as strong as Hecatomb. That would generate about 24.34 dps by itself. And lets say that I have Reactive Radial and get 75% chance at the DoT. That would generate an additional 34.57 dps. And lets say that the target is continuously affected by the maximum stacked Reactive resistance debuff of -10% anyway. That would amplify all my damage by 10%. Doing all of that simultaneously, I would still need enough recharge to run that chain gapless *and* have a total damage buff of 2.70 to reach 300 dps from slotting and global damage buffs. Assuming all three attacks crit at their higher rate.
Tier 4 musculature core grants +32.25% damage after ED factoring in the ED exemption. Assault grants +10.5%.
Under this scenario, which I don't think is really even possible, you still would fall a bit short. Realistically, even if you go all out here, I think you're looking at closer to 260.
Staff single target under these extreme circumstances is probably only about 15% behind or so, with dramatically better AoE options. That's based on PS-SR-PS-SS, which seems to have about the same recharge requirements as SK-CK-SK-CAK (the critical path seems to be SK-CK-SK for MA which requires at least 3.25 recharge on SK, about the same recharge as required on SS for PS-SR-PS-SS). Also I'm pretty sure there isn't a better MA chain than SK-CK-SK-CAK, but I'm not certain what the optimal chain is for Staff yet.
Hybrid Assault could have gotten MA there, but it also would have gotten Staff there as well.
I don't have time to calculate the attacks out, so just going by mids numbers:
Storm Kick: 361.5
Crane Kick: 434.5
Crippling Axe Kick: 441
Total: 1598
So, 275 before reactive, and over 300 with reactive, by your numbers (usually, I go with 14 for reactive).
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.954
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Magic Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Martial Arts
Secondary Power Set: Super Reflexes
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Blaze Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Storm Kick -- Hectmb-Dam%(A), Mako-Dam%(3), GS-%Dam(3), Hectmb-Dmg/Rchg(5), HO:Nucle(5), Hectmb-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(7)
Level 1: Focused Fighting -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(15), RedFtn-Def(33), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(33), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(34), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg(34)
Level 2: Focused Senses -- HO:Cyto(A), HO:Cyto(7)
Level 4: Agile -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(34)
Level 6: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(13)
Level 8: Crane Kick -- HO:Nucle(A), Hectmb-Dmg(9), Mako-Dam%(9), T'Death-Dam%(11), GS-%Dam(11), ExStrk-Dam%(13)
Level 10: Practiced Brawler -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 12: Focus Chi -- AdjTgt-ToHit/Rchg(A), AdjTgt-Rchg(17)
Level 14: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 16: Dodge -- DefBuff-I(A), Ksmt-ToHit+(23)
Level 18: Crippling Axe Kick -- SScrappersS-Rchg/+Crit(A), SScrappersS-Dmg/Rchg(19), SScrappersS-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(19), SScrappersS-Acc/Dmg(21), Mako-Dam%(21), TotHntr-Dam%(23)
Level 20: Quickness -- Empty(A)
Level 22: Boxing -- Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(25), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(31), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(31)
Level 24: Tough -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), GA-3defTpProc(25)
Level 26: Dragon's Tail -- Armgdn-Dam%(A), Armgdn-Dmg/EndRdx(27), Armgdn-Acc/Rchg(27), Armgdn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(29), Armgdn-Dmg/Rchg(29)
Level 28: Lucky -- DefBuff-I(A)
Level 30: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), RedFtn-Def(36), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(36), RedFtn-EndRdx(43), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(46), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(46)
Level 32: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), RedFtn-Def(33), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(36), RedFtn-EndRdx(37), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(40), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(50)
Level 35: Evasion -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), RedFtn-Def(37), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(37), RedFtn-EndRdx(40), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(40), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(43)
Level 38: Ring of Fire -- Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), Dev'n-Dmg/Rchg(39), Dev'n-Dmg/EndRdx(39)
Level 41: Fire Blast -- Apoc-Dam%(A), Apoc-Dmg/EndRdx(42), Apoc-Acc/Rchg(42), Apoc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), Apoc-Dmg/Rchg(43)
Level 44: Fire Ball -- Ragnrk-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), Ragnrk-Acc/Rchg(45), Ragnrk-Dmg/Rchg(45), Ragnrk-Dmg/EndRdx(45), Ragnrk-Dmg(46)
Level 47: Char -- Lock-%Hold(A), Lock-Acc/Hold(48), Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(48), Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48), Dev'n-Hold%(50), Dev'n-Dmg/Rchg(50)
Level 49: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 50: Musculature Core Paragon
------------
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Mrcl-Rcvry+(A), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(15)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod(17), EndMod-I(31)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run -
Quote:I was counting on Assault Hybrid.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I'm currently in the middle of updating my MA/SR build and would very much like to see that 300dps MA build.
Probably could do it with very liberal proc slotting, assault from leadership, +dam bonuses, musculature, reactive, and running Storm Kick>Crane>Storm>Crippling. -
I still have altitis. I just level faster.
Currently, my "main" is a Staff/Dark named Sandformer. The best thing about him is that he uses OLD costume assets pretty well. 90% is I0 stuff.
Stone is the basis (which matches up with a "Sandfall" backpack). If I could get a good picture, I would.
Staff is nice on Stalkers, and after leveling up in sewer trials I've started to run missions -1/x8 since level 22. Could do better if I set it for /6/bosses, but whatever.
Main previous main is now being using a marketing hound. Same with other old characters, including Dis Pater (roman god), Combat R1, Poor Farmer, Old Wippernapper, Kinetic Fist, and more.
I usually go for 2 months.