ChaosRed

I truly believe one of the most inane beliefs gamers carry with them, is video games require "skill". It is true by the strictest terms I guess, but really the whole concept is a stretch. Amusement isn't a skill. Riding a roller coaster isn't a skill.

These games are a lark, a pastime, a simple distraction for relaxation and escape. They involve less skill than reading a book. If it is a "skill" it ranks somewhere in between holding a spoon and peeing straight.

The idea that power-gamers spend a great deal of their hobby, with the mathematics of the game to optimize their experience is a lie. Especially, in this game, which lets face it, is one of the easiest MMOs to min-max.

Really, if you want games of legitimate skill, there's a bevy to choose from, far, far, far more robust than COH. COH is a lark, a whimsical game of comic books, of pew-pew, laser beams and goth chicks with large breasts and pale white skin. It is pop. It is sugary-coated nonsense. I love it, but less face it, this game is a breezy, cheesy little distraction to our lives: nothing more. At least I hope that's what it is to the rest of you. It surely is all it is ever intended to be.

Be honest, seriously just be honest about what we are talking about: what the vast majority of power gamers do, is simply repeat patterns, established by others, that have no risk, no thrill and almost no skill required to complete. They repeat these patterns endlessly until something better comes along.

None of this would be bothersome to me, except that coupled with it, is this ridiculous notion that this very safe, low-risk, style of play is somehow a legitimate challenge and that the more you repeat these dull patterns, the better player you are.

As if there is such a thing, as a "better" player in these games. Really, the measurements for "better" or "worse" in games are not really there. It's like saying I am better at watching NFL football on Sunday than you are.

Let's call it what is really power gaming is: easy pickings for people who loathe challenge, and confuse gaining experience with "points". They make the false assumption this is the entire point of the game. So much so, they sacrifice almost all the thrills the game can provide to achieve more points.

All power to them, and to each their own. But because I get to express my opinion about it just as equally as the throngs of Freedom who habitually mock roleplay, I find it laughable.

Sure my opinion is subjective, and it is not indicative of everyone else's point of view. But come on - power gaming in COH is dry stuff, by anyone's standards. The fact a giant square zone, with no geography, plenty of open space, well-spaced mobs of one specific archetype, bludgeoned to death with nary any risk, skill, thrill, or tactic is purely an act of acquistion nothing more.

What's so laughable about all that to me, is what you acquire is nothing, but the exclusive right to pay another 15 dollars next month to continue the pattern. XP is the measurement of nothing but time. You can choose to spend that time in challenging, entertaining and/or creative ways, but power gamers loathe all those things. They simply crave the points. they essentially state that gaining 1000 points an hour doing something boring - is better than gaining 500 points an hour doing something challenging. It's classic addictive/obsessive personality, text book cases really, and in my book, that doesn't deserve applause.

The reason why role players are far more enjoyable to me, is they focus almost exclusively on actual entertainment, leaving the simplistic "point system" that a grade school student can master, as as a secondary diversion. They learned long ago, an MMO rewards time, obsession and subscription dollars - not really skill.

Even the oldest stewards of our hobby wrote in their books, that the game was diminished when the only focus of the game was power. Monty Haul campaigns have always been mocked in this hobby of ours. And farming is Monty Haul at its worst. Plain and simple.

Mockery of that style of play, is as old as the jokes of role players showing up to the gaming tables in capes, or saying everything with words such as "thou and thine" as often as possible. And I support mockery of role players too. Gaming should never take itself seriously. It does after all, revolve around playing games, often rather childish games. There's nothing wrong with that, but its nothing to boast about either. There's a certain whimsy and tradition amongst gamers of mocking our games and mocking how much we delight in them. I cherish that aspect of gaming. It's part of our culture.

If we're going to try and go all politically correct about boss farming, and worry about the fragile egos of nerds playing a super hero game, then, I worry a little. It may have finally come to believe its own BS, and stopped realizing, that these games are a joke. A fun, entertaining joke, but there's nothing to envy from one gamer to another.

Your Pac Man high score doesn't impress me. It impresses noone. It usually means you wasted your lunch hour, nothing more.

*nod*

In an old game called Traveler, your character could literally die during character creation.

Traveler was, just a marvelous game, that way.

Putting a different skin and name on a dead character, to me, isn't really fully letting go of a character. There is always a price.

Deleting it into oblivion, really formalizes the death - and for me is cathartic, it demonstrates that with MMOs it is never the destination or the number associated to that destination it is always the journey.

Once you let go like that, its easier to do it again. There's a million characters in every willing mind.

I will say, I have played this game for five years now. I do not have a single level 50. Not. One.

So, my style of play is a lazy, loose, and a rather cheesy style - that doesn't suit others. So take my advice and opinions with a grain of salt, or slice of brie which ever you prefer.

Death by thesaurus.

- that just might be the perfect epitaph.

I had assumed Frosticus was being sarcastic, stunning to me, that perhaps he was not.

I find Level 1, is often the most fun you can have in any game. Certainly, in old table tops, level 1 was the most "dangerous" and "exciting" adventures of all, because of the fragility of your character. Entire campaigns are sometimes sculpted keeping characters at level 1, because the mortality that is ever-present at that level.

My beef with *some* power gamers is their alleged love and claim of "skill", when in fact, they go out of their way to experience the safest and least-challenging content of all. In COH in particular, power-leveling is not only devoid of skill, it is devoid of risk or challenge. Making really, the whole thing just an exercise of "push button to make noise and character go whirrr", the kind of game an infant plays.

So as a result, power-leveling in a boss farm, in my mind, is therefore akin to this:

http://www.pixietoyhire.co.nz/images...exersaucer.jpg

Not that role players don't deserve their fair share of mockery - they do - all gaming culture does, but power gamers and PvP players are especially fun to mock, because they are so utterly convinced they have "mad skilz", when in fact, they are the exact lemmings gaming companies love to cultivate because they are so easily appeased with "phat lewt". Easy customers, easy revenue, so easily led down whatever garden path the gaming company wants them to wander...all for 15 dollars a month of course.

It's a riddle WOW figured out a long time ago, and now caters to the power-gaming lemming almost exclusively.

Role players, get stuck with games like (shudder) Eve Online. No fair!

Still, if you'd like me to mock role players with equal volume, I can gladly do so.

Beautiful sarcasm Frosticus, beautiful. Well played.

I suggest mild cooperation with a Mary Sue to avoid the antagonism you can receive if you ignore the Mary Sue or refuse to accept their premise. In some ways, a Mary Sue is a passive-aggressive form of griefing.

The best thing you can do with griefing (in my experience) is pat them on the head gently and then be on your way.

Of course they want their toon to be the end all be all. It doesn't make them a bad person, just means they are a normal kid.

Having started roleplay at the age of 11, and having worked volunteer jobs where I'd GM for kids...and having mentored kids directly with gaming both paper and plastic, I must tell you that my humble experience is that most Mary Sue's are not kids. In fact, show me a disgruntled, intelligent gamer in their late 20's and 30's, whose real life has fallen a little short of their obvious intelligence, and I'll say the chances of that gamer using their game to vent their frustration or somehow prove their own worth begins to rise.

Kids, I find, are superb roleplayers, if you can forgive certain aspects of their play. It comes naturally to them, I find, because they do it all the time. And they generally like having people lead them through stories and arcs, and when they do create their own, they tend to be wildly imaginative and unique.

It's the "adults" amongst us, that in my experience, cause the most RP grief, and even, get threatened with the idea that kids would dare to attempt RP. Kids tend to have some Mary Sue elements, like for example, claiming they are related to someone vastly important in the game. But in terms of insisting they can read everyone's mind all the time - or insist on establishing that nobody can ever understand them or read their minds, or learn anything about them, but they can do whatever they please - that's a cognitive dissonance that adults perfect much more readily than kids.

Kids can be derivative, in terms of concepts and names, especially when they first attempt the hobby, but Mary Sueism, in my experience, is more than likely to come from the arrested development of a very intelligent, but somewhat frustrated gamer. The RP equivalent of the dude that kept claiming: "I waste him with my crossbow".

Wait, do we actually need to be politically correct about farmers and power-gamers and adjust our terminology to avoid hurting their feelings?

Are we really that fragile a society now?

Common courtesy is one thing, but if you can't tease an obsessed power-gamer, we've lost all sense of humor. Heck KOTD made an entire industry out of mocking power-gamers, gamers of all types really.

I say, mock away, it's all part of the tapestry.

And yeah AE is a great tool and very much alive.

AE is alive, and never died.

You can still power-game with the thing, but power-gaming in COH is like peeing on ant hill. Sure it appears like power, and certainly you get visible results - but it is pretty boring, and rather unimpressive, and really a child could do it and produce the exact same result.

You always could create delicious RP with AE. I find, that my best RP in AE, is usually deeply connected to just one or two players I treasure. I like the personal touches you can put in AE, that can reference adventures in the past, character names and places that have meaning in your RP circle and make the game seemingly "come alive".

I've felt more like a super hero, in a real super group, playing AE than anywhere else in game. I can make our imagination come to life with the tool. It's awesome, and people have focused too much on the power-gamer exploits rather than give the tool its full due.

Power-gamers are deluded fools. If they have fun, with their endless repetition of simple, risk-free patterns, then I wish them well; but I won't let their intrusion ruin my own experience. One of the great things about AE power-gamers, is they all congregate in one zone. Leaving almost all other AE buildings, deliciously empty. I can openly roleplay with my small group in some of them, knowing I am not disturbing anyone, and nobody comes along to spoil the mood. Wonderful. It's like all the dumb power-gamers have put into a single box, where they perpetuate their strange repetitive drudgery ad-infinitum without ever bothering me. I have indulged in boss farms myself, so I am not blame less, but it is usually just for an hour or so, to get some tired character a tasty enhancement treat, a small carrot for squandering hours in the game without one iota of XP to show for it. I consider the whole experience utterly OOC.

Meanwhile, AE is slowly building more and more strength as a story tool. We don't sing AE's praises enough. We think the masses dictate whether AE is useful. We judge only the worst distortion of AE's usage. We forget to judge the sharp, simple and effective personal content it can create for ourselves and friends.

I have screen shots of battles, that took place in AE, that for me - sing. For they represent some of the best RP moments I've ever had in this game.

What bothers me is, the general negative use of the feature (and the subsequent vehment criticism of it), will ensure COH won't augment the tool beyond what we already have. Sad, because this tool, could be the greatest RP tool I know of, if taken one or two steps further. Sadly, what I think we'll see is just see more Nerf-Catting with the thing.

I use the tool constantly. I love it. I wish I had more time to iron out every bug that comes up with the one's I make, but sometimes those bugs create RP moments on their own. When I didn't spell $target correctly, for example, it has created this in joke as to who the mysterious $targte is.

We each take turns being GM with the thing, sometimes writing another chapter of each other's stories or ideas, which takes stories in new and unique directions. Wonderful stuff, I only wish we could convince the stewards of COH to augment it more, it's a gem of a tool. Under-developed just a bit, but its concept is sound - and it thrives - it always has.

There are a small minority of role players, who insist on role playing from positions of almost absolute power. Tell tale signs of this role player are:

1. They constantly insist they can decrypt, understand and learn everything about your character in mere seconds. No computer system, mental barriers or will power can stop their technical/psychic skills from deducing everything about you.

2. You can learn nothing about them. Their defense mechanisms are impenetrable.

3. Your character is constantly reminded of their inferiority, your schemes and ideas are always "laughable", "silly" and "chidlish". They go out of their way to tell other players who are roleplaying how bad their ideas are both IC and OOC.

4. More often their ideas are not revealed to you at all, either they don't really have any, or they contend (with a straight face) that their ideas are too complicated for you to understand.

5. Both OOC and IC they are constantly telling everyone how your ideas are boring, contrived and "done a million times", their ideas are always "misunderstood". They tend to gripe/moan privately, from time to time, that nobody seems to "get" their character.

6. Nobody can truly understand the massive depth to their character. This is because it is so deep, and so utterly impenetrable, making the irony of their attitude that "nobody gets their character" even more ironic and perpetual.

7. Secrets, secrets, secrets, so vast, so cryptic, that anything they do actually reveal to you is just a small sliver of what is going on, and probably just offered to deceive you and prove how stupid/inept/powerless your character is compared to there's.

8. The cardinal rule is: I know everything about you, everything...even before you've even come up with it on your own. Your character is trite, trivial and cliche. Their character is genius creation, that you, have absolutely no capability to fully understand.

These roleplayers seldom share themselves truly in terms of collaboration, sharing ideas or working together with mutual respect. They refuse to ever be put in vulnerable positions. They resent it when other characters around them are getting more attention than they are. They tend to gripe, sometimes passively, sometimes aggressively, when other story lines that they are not directly involved in, become the center of attention. They tend to use cheap IC devices to passingly mock other people's stories, when they are actively being played.

This isn't the "text book" Mary Sue, but it is a flavor of them. They consider just about any creative effort that they don't directly control "god modding" and they view just about any new roleplayer with suspicion and usually try to deflate their characters both IC and OOC to gain an upper hand on them. Its the same "neg" tactic, jerk guys sometimes use in singles bars.

These small group of roleplayers create a defensive posture amongst other roleplayers around them. Either the Mary Sue themselves sets up all kinds of preconditions in their bio, to enforce how they must always have the upper hand, and can never be vulnerable; or the role player is so weary of being Mary Sue'd, they've put in their bio to help defend themselves against it.

Really, both reactions are weak. The best thing you can do with a Mary Sue is indulge them, (for as long as they can be tolerated), then gracefully bow out when the time seems right.

As for psychic penetration, that reveals everything about your character, I also indulge them. Feeding them a combination of truth and lies, then fake passing out and tell them my character we "teleported elsewhere" by some unknown force. If they insist they know what that outside force is, due to their incredible, unquestionable power, I usually answer "the moon", then log out for a few minutes.

Now I am not a great role player, I don't contend to be. But I do know, that the best role players often RP from positions of weakness. That the most useful, clever and most interesting role player is willing to support stories rather than create them - willing to be victimized, or set back in their character's goals and are willing to "go with the flow" without constantly stomping their feet and insist everyone play with only their dollies.

These are the roleplayers I inevitably gravitate to and treasure most, and the kind of role player I pretend to be. Some may argue my preference isn't correct, that is fine, but I tell you it's the ones who are open, honest, collaborative and willing to treat themselves and others around them as creative equals, that in my experience, produce the most fun with our little hobby.

Those caveats in bios you see, represent either someone who has had too many bad experiences with this kind of roleplayer, or worse, are one of those kinds of roleplayers and are just staging themselves to be start up yet another dominant, insult-laden, ego trip, which they somehow believe is what role playing is all about.

I'll humbly add, that for my money, to truly kill a character you have to delete it. It's that physical act that really consummates the death as "total".

I understand many would not want to do that, and I respect that. For me, characters are a dime-a-dozen. They are just whims of fantasy and imagination, for which I feel there is an endless supply in all of us. Some characters become too beloved or useful to consider killing them permanently, but once I decide they are expendable, and are never to return, I hit the delete key, and complete the act 100%.

I don't think that's a superior way to go about it, but I find it makes the death complete, real and even somewhat haunting. Perhaps its just the old dicer in me, that knows one of the greatest tension reliefs after a character dies in dice-sessions is tearing the character sheet into little pieces and throwing it at the GM like confetti.

Since you can't "waste the GM with my crossbow", sometimes it was the only refuge left for a dead character.

Yes indeed, lots of times, across a lot of games.

In VirtueVerse, the highest level character I killed off for RP reasons was just level 27 though, so not a major sacrifice on my side, but when they died I deleted them.

Doctor North was "killed" at level 43, but I didn't delete him, I just brought him back after about a 3 month absence.

Yes indeed, lots of times, across a lot of games.

In VirtueVerse, the highest level character I killed off for RP reasons was just level 27 though, so major sacrifice on my side, but when they died I deleted them.

Doctor North was "killed" at level 43, but I didn't delete him, I just brought him back after about a 3 month absence.

I don't think I'll make anyone new. I am however, probably going to adjust who I play based on the new difficulty settings. I like to play my Brutes solo, and the problem has always been the highest difficulty for my Brutes were often too easy (some mob types were an exception).

When "Going Rogue" releases, however I will most certainly, be switching sides. Cobra Fist already established himself as having "villainous" tendencies - and I think it might be time to resurrect Chaos Red and turn him into a super hero for a while.

ChaosRed: No, no, that's totally fine! I was just teasing you!

Woops! Sorry I missed the original tone!

I can't make your STORM event, but I will be on later and will try to contact one of your team to arrange the coalition.

Say you're orchestrating a roleplay that involves framing someone for a crime of some sort. Is it not the right thing to do to OOCLY ask the person being framed if it's okay to include them in your storyline? Especially in that capacity

It is absolutely imperative you discuss this before hand. Indeed, you will often find that with good roleplayers, that doing so will yield even more interesting creative ideas on how to set up the frame, or what might happen because of it.

The only exception I can think of to this, is if you've spent a long time building trust with the other player. I have a few players that I allow to do just about anything involving my characters, because I know I trust their judgment, and that they will always use that freedom wisely and effectively.

Part of what good RP is - in my opinion - is the development of trust with the other player, to let each other craft a story collaboratively. Actually, its not that far from legitimate theater, because the first thing a new cast often does when they first assemble is a series of trust exercises.

I think a coalition works best for us. I see it as a resource to help one another "fill gaps" when RP or missions need plugging in, as you described earlier in the thread.

We're a pretty insular group, and tightly knit. We attempted to grow beyond that for a while, but I failed on that front, when I realized I am too casual a player and too committed a work-a-holic at times to pull it off. So the players on the fringes of our group, will be encouraged to join you directly if they need more time, attention and commitment, and I'm sure many of them will take you up on that offer

Our core 4 or 5 members though, will stick with what we have. We're pretty invested in each other's stories and we like the smaller scope, we find it helps us manage the stories and ensure everyone gets equal attention and spotlight.

I hope that will work, but I will understand if it does not.

If we want to cross-pollinate a story or character or two, as times goes on, so much the better. But I like small careful steps, mostly because I know I am too flighty and inconsistent with my play to commit to much more.

I remember your great message to me EK many months ago, my apologies it arrived at a time when I could not act upon it. I will contact one of your group tonight and set up the coalition.

And I agree, that I love AE for RP! For all the angst the farming exploits AE created, I still think its the best RP tool to arrive in any game in a while. A group of four of us just completed a 3-mission arc last night. The story was deeply personal, catered exclusively to us, and was meant for just the four of us. It was awesome, it felt like we were living a 3-issue series of a comic book story-arc.

We'd stop after each chapter (we separated each part of the story into its own mission to do this), and role-played in between, basically "setting up" the next mission. It was, too much fun.

I'd kill for a fantasy-based game to have the same tool. I find AE can take RP stories in a whole new bold and fun direction. I hope they continue to augment and improve the tool, people grouse about it (for legitimate reasons), but overall, I love it.

Thanks! Although for my money I wouldn't call it great work. I'd calling it "noodling", like some sloppy guitar solo from Ace Frehley. Neat special effects though, but not a whole lot of talent there.

Sorry, every day I must put a KISS reference into a random online forum, it is a disease worse than H1N1.

Look forward to contacting you, thanks for making room for me.

Oh yours, that "Cthulu" themed story arc of yours.

My Red is just me listening to "Holiday in the Sun" one day, and deciding to make a character out of it. My Red hasn't actively roleplayed in over two years, and sticks super-glue into his mohawk to keep it straight. He's a lark, a big brute with smelly armpits and a sleeveless leather jacket.

I was contacted by one of the PU officials a long time ago, about a coalition with Alpha Squad many moons ago.

Then, shortly after the invitation, my work exploded with a new massive project, and I got sucked into the vortex of 80-hour work weeks. So I never followed up.

And then Alpha Squad died with my lack of attention and workaholic tendencies.

Now that I'm back and Alpha Squad is smaller, less time-consuming. I can finally take you guys up on your offer. I'll get in touch with your group and see what we can arrange. We only have four active members, but we group together frequently, and could really use PU to extend some teams to a full-8.

Thanks for the good work you do, , helping roleplayers find others to play with!

What makes Supreme Society great, is they can adapt to just about any flavor you throw at them. I look at the high-camp of the Count, but then I can see the deeply disturbing story of Red in the same group, with sometimes both stories/characters operating on the same thread.

It's good stuff.

To the original poster and others reading this who feel the same way: it would be tragic if a roleplayer was starving for RP and couldn't find any on this server. Because, the RP that does exists here is pretty damn cool. I am a scattered, casual player, so I can't offer long term places/times to RP. What I can offer is, if you see @Ravyna online and would like an RP encounter, shoot me a tell. Unless I am already occupied with another group, I'll gladly do what I can to get some RP going for you.

I am very busy tonight, but any other night this week will probably work.

One hope I have is if the DCU mass-migration (and it just might), that we designate one of the servers as "new Virtue", so I can bump into some of the creative minds here one more time.

I still feel, that this game was never really a good PvP game, and that good PvP/RP blend is usually just resolution to story/antagonism generated before hand. Then again, who died and made me the judge of what is and what is not great about this game? My point of view of what works and does not work, is no more relevant or accurate than the next person's. It comes down to personal taste really.

I would like to offer up, that I am available to anyone that needs a little roleplay. I rarely (if ever) join groups for long, and I rarely get involved in really deep RP, but if you are online and just want to talk in-character and see where it leads, my global is @Ravyna. I am almost always up for random RP.

I am very much a PG-13 roleplayer though. I know that is really unpopular in Virtue (where everyone and his dog is MRP), so I'll tend to keep things campy and cheesy. My comic appetite was established late 70's, early 80's - and I tend to roleplay in that general style. This is evident in the names I choose, and the characters I play. Think Marv Wolfman as my head writer - and I always envision George Perez as the one drawing me.

PvP seems kinda dead if three people in a single zone stirs up a whole hive of people looking for something to do -- Gila

To use an ancient expression, many have forgotten through the sands of time, I say this about Gila's quote:

This wins. It is full of win. It wins like a ****.

PVP in COH is like whiskey at a child's birthday party.

If you tolerate the occasional moron who tries to cut you down for roleplaying, I highly reocommend talking in character randomly from time to time. If you are in front of an NPC, say something to them in character - or have your character mutter to themselves or comment their surroundings, or have them acknowledge the mission out loud when they are picking up a new mission.

It doesn't always work, but so often it does. It tends to bring RP out of the woodwork, even if it just a few sentences worth before they go off and destroy another evil plot.

Also I test about every PUG I stumble into for RP, and if I see character descriptions on any of the team members, I start roleplaying immediately. I always wait for "down times" to RP. Usually when someone goes AFK, or the party is reassembling (picking up new members, or deciding next mission) is the perfect time.

Anyway, it works for me, so I thought I pass the advice along.