Cambios

Has anyone written a good guide for APPs post ED/1.6?

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Just curious, with the advent of PVP has focused accuracy been graced with a +Perception attribute? Can anyone provide info on this?(seems like it would make sense...)

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I would really like to know this as well.

I definitely believe it should have +perception like tactics.

Has anyone written an updated guide for Scrapper APP powers post ED and 1.6?

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32) --> Singularity==> Empty(32) Empty(33) Empty(33) Empty(33) Empty(34) Empty(34)


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I assume you don't leave them empty.

How do you slot this? Do ACC enh improve its acc?

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Personal or casual bases will fade away like the platform shoes with goldfish in them. Sounds like a great idea at first, then when it becomes reality, and people realize how ridiculous it is. They'll change their mind.

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And that's a shame.

This is probably the most innovative feature they have EVER added to the game. The fact that it cannot be reasonably enjoyed on an individual level is a dang shame.

The sad fact is that you need to be in a big SG to enjoy most of the features, but the bigger the SG, the less likely you are to have much control over what is in the base.

So you are basically screwed either way. That is bad game design.

Good luck to ya Heckfire!

I am interested to hear your experiences.

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Maldini wrote:

Like I said in another post, posting a lot has nothing to do with how hardcore of a gamer you are. For many people, it's an escape from the mundaneness of work.

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Sure it does.

Anyone who averages close to 500 posts a month is hardcore to the extreme.

You also happen to lead a large SG and are a member of (in your words) several other SGs.

You also espouse pure min/max grind behavior for earning prestige.

News Flash: You are a hard core gamer. If you think the above does not describe hard core, then you are even more out of touch with what makes for a casual gamer than I expected.

It is not something to be ashamed of. I'm a hardcore gamer as well. I'll probably have my first lvl 40 villain pretty soon and it will be in less than 100 hours of playing time (possibly a lot less, I haven't checked it in a while).

But you have to be honest with yourself and admit that you are indeed a hardcore min/maxer, and all of your advice has been for casual players to engage in hardcore gameplay behavior. That is bad advice.

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Maldini thought he was amusing when he tried to mock DJJester who has repeatedly slaughtered Maldini's points:


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Wow.. waah waaah waaaah waaah wa waaah wa waaaah wa waaaaah waaah wah waah wa waaaah wa waaah wah? Wah waah waah waaaaaah waah waaaaaah waaaaah. Wa wah waaah waah wa waah waaah.

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Well since there's obviously no reasoning with you even after someone offers a valid counterpoint, I no longer respect your opinion and this is all I hear from you from this point forward.

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Maldini, your ENTIRE countpoint is:

START PLAYING LIKE A HARDCORE UBER GAMER! NO OTHER PLAYSTYLE IS ACCEPTABLE.

Why is it so hard for you to see how ridiculous and stupid your suggestion is?

Harccore gamers like you, me, and tons of other people here will have no trouble earning lots of prestige. That's because we are mix/maxer hardcore players who always find the best way to do things.

But here's a little clue: most people don't do that, most people don't like that, and these "most people" are important to the overall financial health of the game.

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Not everyone is reporting the same thing. In fact more than a few are reporting numbers that are 2 to 4 times than this average that your quoting. But you're only looking at the data that supports your cause.

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Yeah, hardcore farmers are the ones reporting higher numbers.

Maldini, are you middle school child or are you really just totally ignorant of what a casual player really is?

A casual gamer is someone who logs on, hangs out with his/her friends, throws a group together here and there (usually not a perfect group, and often with a couple of people sidekicked or exemplared), does a few missions (perhaps part of a story arc which often means the missions are not super fast), and during the time they are playing they will chit chat, goof off, etc.

A hardcore gamer mix/maxes their build, puts groups together with a top notch combination of classes and levels, does the most efficient missions fighting the ideal enemy types (avoiding annoying as heck and time consuming enemies like Circle of Thorns, cramped cave missions, etc.), and blitzes through missions like crazy at top speed.

You seem to be totally unable to understand the difference.

You should also understand that the OVERWHELMING majority of customers (and that means Cryptic's income) are casual players.

Bases and Base Raiding are the two most dramatically hyped features of the CoV expansion. Just look at the box. You cannot use "hardcore gamer logic" to explain how casual gamers should have to play in order to enjoy the most significant features of the expansion.

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There's no way that in less than one year any SG should be able to MAX OUT their base.

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Of course it should.

Is this a game or a slave galley?

Most SGs don't even last that long. They break up when too many members quit, graduate from college, get married, have kids, get a promotion at work, and all sorts of other RL reasons.

If a huge SG could not max out their base in a year, that's a huge problem as well.

You also have to keep in mind that once people start raiding, things are going to get destroyed and need to be replaced.

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DJJest wrote to Maldini:

Your cocky I'm better than you attitude can just take a hike. These folks are describing THEIR EXPERIENCES and discussing them. Just b/c you (In City of Villains from what I gather) have found a way to make 100k in a couple of hours doesn't mean that every SG can accomplish that. "Shared Mission Complete Bonuses" well guess what.. those arn't IN CoH yet.

Your automatically assuming that these folks who are only earning 50k per week arn't teaming together, generally the point of a supergroup IS TO TEAM TOGETHER. More than likely they always are.

Beyond that, I can state for a fact that the Villan Group I run on Protector averages 15-20 people online (having over 60 members) playing during afternoons and into the early morning and all of them working their missions together are making under 100k in a day not a couple of hours. Several of them are already in their high 30's, many are in their mid 20's. These arn't casual gamers, these are folks who know what they're doing and that's all their making. A smaller SG who can just barely form a team of 8 for more than an hour, isn't going to be able to make anything close to that. Its been stated over and over again by numerous people as fact that they arn't earning that.

Just because YOU don't think they're working hard enough or doing things right doesn't make you right. It makes you a jackass.

You obviously can't see the bigger picture and look beyond your own experiences b/c over and over you've stated that if they can't do what your doing their not working hard enough or doing it right. Thats the beauty of MMO's there's never one way to do anything.

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I'm sorry but 20 weeks is nothing close to reasonable. It shouldn't take nealry six months to build a raidable base for a small SG.


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I generally avoid quoting huge portions of text, but DJJester was totally spot on.

Maldini, you really need to take a moment to learn what it means to NOT be a hardcore gamer.

Perahps you cannot understand this, but there are a lot of people who do not think it is fun to login to the game and spend every second of time engaging in optimal grind behavior. If they login to play for an hour or two, some of that is going to be spent socializing.

A major game feature that is basically the most significant feature of the entire CoV expansion should not be something that requires enormous amounts of hard core play to enjoy.

Now, personally, I am a hard core player, and so is my wife. When we login, we grind like mad. We call it "borging." But we are not typical gamers.

The majority of CoH/CoV's customers are casual players. Cryptic ignores this fact at their own peril.


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Your 1.5 - 2 Million Raidable base is a myth...

A Raidable base requires:
6 Dimensional Anchors
Vault
Raid Teleporter
Mission Computer

A Raid Teleporter does NOT fit in the 2x2 room, which means in order to fit a 4x4 room for teleporting you have to sacrifice 2 rooms in your base.

On the basic Plot you can fit 9 2x2 rooms To fit a 4x4 room you have to give up 3 rooms. Now if you can manage to lay things out just right you can use the 150k long control room to use some of the lost space.. However using a 4x4 room leaves you with a max of:
1 4x4
1 1x4
4 2x2 rooms (*MAYBE a 5th 2x2 room)

Out of those 6 or 7 rooms 2 of them can NOT hold a dimensional anchor (The entrance and the Vault)

In order to have enough rooms for dimensional anchors and enough space for a Raid Teleporter YOU MUST Upgrade your plot to the 3.3 million prestige plot.

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Looks like your estimates are off as well, Maldini.

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Maldini:

Not only am I an SG leader of a larger SG, but I also belong to several smaller casual SG's and therefore speak from experience.

Know the man, before you get ballsy and start talking about him.

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Where did I go wrong in labelling you? I labelled you a hardcore player.

You have 1750+ posts in a couple months.

You are the SG leader of a large SG.

You also belong to SEVERAL other SGs.

That's not hardcore?

Are you really and truly this out of touch with what a truly non-hardcore player is?

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Maldini condescendingly babbled:

You're a small, casual SG. That's your problem right there. Though it is not impossible that you could have a raidable base, it is going to take you a lot longer than a bigger, more active SG. Don't like it? Tough [censored]. Start being more active, start playing more if you want to reach your goal of having a raidable base sooner.

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You might want to go read the CoV box.

Bases and PvP were not sold as end game, hardcore content. They were touted as right out of the box features.

Maldini, you are hilarious.

If anyone wants to know the kind of player Maldini is, just look at this bit of data:

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Reged: 05/06/24
Posts: 1753


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In about four and a half months, he already has 1,753 posts here.

Can you say mega hardcore player?

So of course, his estimates for "reasonable" amounts of prestige a small SG can earn are totally off base. He is using Hardcore gamer logic to analyze the issues facing casual playing, small SGs.

I imagine he is unaware that the overwhelming majority of customers of CoH/CoV and every other MMO out there are the casual gamers. He ignores this because he thinks everyone is super hardcore like he is.

In other words, ignore folks like him when they try to tell you what a "reasonable" amount of effort should be for small SGs and casual gamers.

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DJJester wrote:

The problem is you can't look at this as just base building. Its the crafting system too. All the little goodies you unlock from SG badges, build at the worktables, etc, costs lots of prestige to place. It shouldn't take an SG 2 weeks to make enough influence to place one piece of equipment that one person built from salvage that they got in one day.

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Well said. That is yet another of the MANY problems with this whole system.

Finding salvage was exciting for about one day. Then I learned the costs of making and maintaining things. Once I learned that, finding salvage is more like a cruel joke.

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Solarfox wrote:

Does the fact that most of these people are actually wrong, and a small (8-10 member) SG can pay for a base in 2-3 months time count for anything? A small functional base comes in at 1.2 million prestige BTW.


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2 to 3 *MONTHS* to build a small base is reasonable? Are you nuts? Oh wait, you are. You previously thought this was reasonable:

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Solarfox wrote:

75 people, 40 hours a week, 2k prestige per hour.


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The fact that you actually think it is reasonable to base numbers on an entire maxed out SG generating 2k prestige per hour for 40 hours a week is just crazy.

Do you really think people should have to treat CoH/CoV as a second job?

Wake up, man. Sheesh!

DJJester actually provided a reasonable example:

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2k Per hour, 10 people, playing 10 hours each a week would be: 22.5 weeks. Nearly Six Months before that SG could participate in a base raid with a base that has no defensive capabilities other than their members.

That doesn't take into them wanting to be able to craft anything beyond the mission computer and a basic telepad.


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Does that sound reasonable to anyone? Heck no it doesn't.

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Amidar wrote:

As I was testing in beta, I really felt like the bases were trying to ward off, or alienate, the casual gamer.

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Now these bases come along and they suggest, if you want to participate in bases you must be part of a SG. So if you happen to buy CoH alone, that is not enough. No, you must buy CoV, too. Okay, now that you have both, let's really make you work...go join a SG, don't create one yourself, because it will take you many, many months to earn enough prestige to even stock your rooms (Just to turn the power on).

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My point is, Cryptic is forcing us to fit into some vision of theirs. The CoV box says "Design your own Fortress of evil: Build a stronghold of villiany from the ground up using strategy and style. Construct bases with teleporters, hospitals and elaborate defenses in addition to an extensive set of furnishings." The box doesn't prepare you for the disappointment (even for the large or "uber" SGs) that come with an accounting system that is failed. I do not believe that a base shoudl be created overnight. But on the same note, I don't think it should take weeks to get the basics in place, just to turn around and pay rent on it. The larger supergroups do have an advantage here, simply because bases are not scaled in any way, and it is not right. I don;t expect an uber base if I am in a SG of 20, but and SG of 75 allows them to come up to speed much faster than a smaller SG can.


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Cryptic, are you listening?

Another non-hardcore player is trying to explain to you that this whole base design concept is outrageously flawed. He has 46 posts since he registered his account over a year ago. That's not a hardcore player. That is a casual player- in other words, the kind of player that makes up the majority of your customers and income.

Pay attention. The normally quiet masses are rumbling. I ask again: Are you listening?

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In complete bluntness (directed to the powers that be, not you, Castle), mezzing is an absolutely crap balance tool. There is nothing that is not a bug, and I mean nothing, in this game less entertaining and more frustrating than being mezzed.

Being mezzed means you don't play the game. You watch all your toggles go away and get to watch as you die. So why this change? I really, really want to know.


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How many games have to be made before developers actually learn from one of them?

Status Effects, Mez, Stun, etc. are NOT FUN. Understand?

They are a crutch used to artificially and instantly ramp up difficulty in a completely unpredictible, unmanageable way.

It is bad enough that CoH/CoV lacks any sort of diminishing returns or temporary immunity from status effects/crowd control after one wears off. This is what allows you to be "chain stunned" or "chain mezzed."

But on top of this, to now lessen protection against these things is just asinine.

Shouldn't it be obvious how much these effects are despised just by reading every single character build discussion on the forums?

Every single melee build makes sure to have protection against every kind of crowd control.

Why? Because being stunned/mezzed/etc is absolutely miserable.

As the person I quoted already said, it takes you OUT OF THE GAME. You are NO LONGER PLAYING YOUR CHARACTER. That is not fun. Sitting there helplessly watching your character and not being able to take action is not fun. It is PASSIVE and miserable.

Please do the smart thing and reverse this very unwise change.

What you need to do is REDUCE the amount of status effects/crowd control powers used by NPCs (and PCs in PvP). They are absolutely horrific, they are not fun, and they are an obvious and lamentable crutch in game design.

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If this is a PvP change then fine. Please keep in in PvP only.


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This is the only part of the post I disagreed with. Crowd Control powers in PvP are even worse. As bad as it is to be chain-mezzed in PvE, dying in PvP because of this is even worse.

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As you can see I haven't posted often on the boards, but feel the need to say something. This may not be the best forum for it but alas. Me and my gf have been avid fans of CoH since August of last year and we've been eagerly awaiting bases and CoV. We have a small 10+ player hero/villain super group. We are completely overwhelmed and disappointed with how we are unable to build bases and would need more hours than we care to consider to do so.

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This is precisely the kind of sentiment that is overwhelmingly pervasive right now in CoH/CoV.

Most players are NOT huge SG power gamers. Most players are in smaller SGs with a few friends and play casually. These are the types of folks that usually don't bother with game forums because that is just too hardcore for them. If you don't believe me, do some research and look for interviews and press releases from every commercial MMO to date.

The fact that we are seeing so many of these types of folks "coming out of the woodwork" to post about the inaccessibility of bases to small SGs and individuals should REALLY make the developers stand up and take notice.

The groundswell is growing fast. Do something sooner rather than later.

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DJJester babbled:

Instead you opted to whine and not participate in the conversation. Hence my response.


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Translation: I provided better arguments and better points that you, which everyone else in the thread agreed with, and felt were more important than your points, but since you don't like it, you are going to label it whining.

I participated in the conversation. I just made points that mattered to more people than yours. You seem to consider yourself some kind of Forum King and any thread you participate in has to proceed precisely the way you want it to.

Wake up and grow up. That isn't how forums work.


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DJJester drooled:

Your "Everyone Pays the same amount" argument still holds no water b/c by that logic everyone should access to Peacebringers, Warhsades without having to work to get to 50. Everyone should be able to raid hamidon wihtout getting to level 45.


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Apples and oranges. Everyone who wants to can level up to 50. Everyone who wants to can level up and join a Hamidon raid. Both of those things involve basic playing of the game (leveling up). Not everyone who wants to be in a huge SG... EVER. Developing a base system that effectively REQUIRES you to join a huge SG is why it is indeed something that caters to a minority of the player base. That is why the "everyone pays the same to play the game" argument is absolutely, 100% valid and applicable.

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DJJester erred:

The current system caters to NO one.. the "uber SGs" are finding it difficult to build a base just as the little SG's are.


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Wrong. Uber SGs are finding it difficult. Small SGs are aware that it is *impossible*. Impossible and difficult are not the same thing. You are attempting to draw an equivalency that is erroneous.


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DJJester cried:

This entire thread was never bout Uber SG's, it was about doing the math to prove that no one would be able to use all the features which INHERITLY means that the small groups are screwed.


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Here is a news flash: the things you think are important are not necessarily the same things that other people think are important. Just because you want to talk about one flawed aspect of the overall system does not mean other people cannot discuss OTHER flawed aspects of the system. The title of the thread is: "Constructing Items, Bases, and their costs." There is no stipulation that discussions can ONLY include issues related to large SGs or for the mathematical absurdities of rent.

I actually agree with many of the points raised on those issues, and as I already mentioned, I *am* in a huge SG. But there are OTHER issues that are even more important that need to be raised as well- so I raised them.

You mostly care about issues that will affect large SGs. Guess what: that is not what matters to the majority of players. The overwhelming majority of players of ANY MMO are not the hardcore, uber gamers in the big guilds.

That is why you are getting so frustrated that people find MY points to be more important than yours. My points affect more people and are therefore more important to them. Your points only affect people in large SGs. The fact that large SG members make up an unrepresentatively large percentage of forum posters would usually result in your point getting more attention. This is all the more reason to take notice when mine are the ones striking more of a chord.

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it has already been noted by the devs that if the current system is flawed, they will look at changing it.

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once again, read.

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Your absolutly right.

*puts troll food away, puts Ed Anger on ignore*

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Why are you putting him on ignore when it was *YOU* that failed to read his post carefully enough to see the very important word "if"?

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DJJester wrote:

Ed I suggest you pay attention to who's been leading the debate in this thread and not just reading one response to someone who initially posted ranting and raving semi-off topic talking about how things should have been done and attacking the devs for what they gave us instead of doing things his way.

It solves nothing and does nothing to further the conversation.

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Aha, you were "leading" the debate so people should listen to you instead.

It must kill you that I made better and more persuasive points that more people (read: everyone but you) agreed with. That must absolutely burn your britches, eh?

Sorry, but the whole SG peepee waving is complete immature bunk and it has no place at all in game development.

Every SG, no matter how small (even 1 person) should be able to put together a base, build things with salvage, etc. Even an SG of 10-20 people should be able to build a PvP capable base. There should not be obscene rent costs that make hard core play mandatory just to maintain what you have built.

These costs are crazy. The rent is crazy. The fact that you need a huge SG to do anything is crazy.

As I already said, the current system is inherently contradictory because it requires a SG so huge just to do a few things, that very few of the members will actually get to do anything. For every person who wants to build something, you'll need 10+ members supporting the stuff they built. Well, what if everyone wants to build stuff? Shouldn't they get to?

The system as designed is totally jacked up and poorly planned. It clearly caters to Uber Guilds, which is a very depressing trend to see by so many MMO developers. They cater to the Uber Guild weenies who rant and rave on the forums instead of designing content that can be enjoyed by EVERYONE who plays the game.

Everyone pays the same $15 a month. It doesn't matter if they are a casual player or a hardcore member of a huge SG that thinks they are the "Most Uber 3l33t d00ds EVAR!!!!!!!!" Content should be developed so everyone can enjoy it, not just a select, vocal, loudly whining few.

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Ah dude everyone in the base raid is the same level. Trust me a group of 15s can kick a group of 50s [censored] in that situation. Seen it happen in the pvp zones.

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Then you've seen some seriously incompetent lvl 50s.

Full SOs + Full Slots + Full Powers vs. TOs/DOs and minimal powers?

Give me a break.

The current system favors huge SGs big time. I know, because I am in one. I still think it is a terrible system.

It is far too difficult to get things for your base and the rent is outrageous.

It needs to scale partially by SG size.

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I think we can come up with ideas all day that make alot more sense then the current system, but the Devs are simply not listening.

This game has changed from a game that was run by the people to a game that fits their vision. I have a question for you Devs now, what happen to our vision, the vision of the paying freaking customer

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I wish this wasn't true, but it sure seems this way.

The biggest strength of this game has always been VARIETY. It has tons of variety in character design, and originally had tons of variety in gameplay. I have no idea why they keep removing types of gameplay possibilities.

I also have no idea why with this base idea they decided to go Everquest style and completely cater to uber guilds.

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DJJester wrote:
1) The Smaller stuff is coming.. think about it this way.. the large supergroups are working out the bugs before you have to worry about it.. and believe me.. there have been MANY bugs to deal with (one player of my SG lost 71 MILLION influence doing a transfer to prestige)


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How about release things that EVERYONE can use first. Then more people are testing it. Or here's another idea: test it fully, and don't release buggy crap.

The above changes nothing. Waiting months for stuff that everyone can enjoy is absurd. This is basically advanced player housing because Cryptic figured out modern MMOs have player housing. Well, implementing it on the guild level first, and not on an individual level is just foolish. That just means a lot less people get to enjoy the feature.

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DJJester wrote:
2) Large Supergroups should have an advantage over smaller ones.. the arguement "I pay as much as they do" doesn't hold water because in actuality you don't. 75 active people working together pay more than you do solo or as a group of 74.


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First of all, the SG I am in is so huge we actually have to use 4 SGs for the members (and probably need more soon as well). I would classify it is a traditional "Uber Guild" (Forgotten Legion on Triumph, www.forgottenlegion.net) So be careful when you make assumptions.

Secondly, large supergroups should NOT have any coded advantages. They already have tremendous advantages from their sheer size. In our big SG, you can set up virtually any Trial, Task Force, or group with incredibly ease- even on the fly. You barely even have to plan them because there are so many people available. Small SGs already have huge disadvantages because they cannot do that. But that is their choice, so that's fine. But don't go and cripple them even further by deliberately releasing MAJOR content that is heavily biased towards Uber Guilds.

Thirdly, there are a lot more casual players than hardcore, large SG players. So 75 casual players pay just as much to play the game as 75 people in a maxed out SuperGroup. Why should the people in the Uber Guild get to enjoy one of the most significant new pieces of content but the casual players have no hope of enjoying it at all? That's crazy. It is bad game design and it just doesn't make sense.

Sure, some immature, pee-pee waving, Uber Guild nimrods love the idea. Probably the same folks here who think just because their SG has been around for a long time, they should automatically get more prestige. Sorry, stop thinking you are anything special just because you are in a big SG. You aren't special. Each member is still ultimately just a single customer. Thinking you are entitled to a better experirence or more features than anyone else is asinine, selfish, and misguided.


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DJJester wrote:
3) Just be patient and try to actually participate in the conversation here instead of screaming useless comments about how you pay as much as someone else and should be able to do anything you want.


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I participated by explaining how poorly designed the whole concept is. The huge flaw here is that it is enormously biased towards huge Uber Guilds. I'm IN one, and I still think this. If anything, that proves I do not have an inherent bias that is controlling my opinion.

The whole system is inherently contradictory as well. If you want to enjoy the content, you need to be in a huge SG. But if you are in a huge SG, there are too many people for everyone to have editing privileges, or for everyone to be able to craft things (the costs would be way too high). But if you are in a small SG, where more people COULD be allowed to "do stuff", you don't have enough prestige to do anything.

It is totally jacked up from the core design and needs a complete overhaul.