Blue_Mourning
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Posts
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Quote:Wait. You mean you're killing them for starting storylines and not finishing but don't want them to focus all their efforts on finishing a storyline they just introduced? In what way does that make sense?Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
I used to believe such things... after all, bases were a big selling point, so obviously they'd keep working on them, and they'd be paying attention to and adjusting PVP after the big I13 changes, right? And it's fine to have just 5 (total) AE slots, because they'd keep on selecting Dev Choice arcs to free slots up without making up contests of their own...
Here's a fun experiment for you. Put a dog in a room and then toss in, oh, 10-15 of those "superball" type, really bouncy balls. See how the dog chases one, then spins to chase another, then another, completely forgetting the first one? That's our dev team with new systems and storylines. They'll bite and growl at one for 2-3 whole seconds sometimes, then... "Ooh, ball, chase! theresaball, chase that one ooh ball chase bounce ooh ball!"
Praetoria invading makes sense. It HAS been just hanging there for a while. Praetoria invading after rewriting ending arcs making you a third-string wannabe ("yeah, we needed some REAL hero support, so we sent the Phalanx in, go see if you can get a tip for carrying their golf clubs or something!") and then throwing in this out-of-left-field "The well is insane and loooooves Tyrant!" is disappointing and feels shoehorned in. (Much like the "Dr. whatsisface has jiggled the wibblywot and now we have power proliferation" ridiculous cutscene at the end of the VEAT arcs... which themselves put the yearly production of Hoover to shame.)
Incarnates and the Praetorian invasion should, frankly, have been two separate story 'threads.' We get introduced to the Well via Statesman/Recluse's backstory, and a bit of mention of beings like Stheno. We get introduced to a "lost origin" and Incarnates via Cimerora. Incarnates being introduced as a player system *via* the Midnighters/Cimerora would make sense, and open up multiple ways to build that power - use it against the invasion! Unlock via Midnighter tasks! And who else are the Midnighters responsible for locking away, where Godlike power would be handy? Ruularu! Would it take a bit longer to develop? Of course. But it'd be a better way to handle it than this trainwreck of "Insane Well presents, Emperor Cole and his Dancing Clockwork!" -
Quote:There's a significant amount of in game lore that indicates that Praetorian Hamidon is more powerful than Primals - starting with the fact that it withstood nuclear attack.Originally Posted by EvilGeko
That's the slippery slope argument. And it's always been rubbish to me. Each decision you make is an opportunity to turn back. Just because you take the fight to the tyrant doesn't mean you're going to decide all of a sudden that you want to sit on his throne. Sure, that happens throughout history, but there's also plenty of times the usurper allows someone else the reins.
Even then, I disagree that Cole fit that model. There's plenty of evidence that Hamidon isn't as signficant a threat as its made out to be. Primal Hamidon is well contained. -
Quote:In a time of crisis, those principles are never more important.Originally Posted by EvilGeko
They accomplish removing Cole.
It's great to stand for your principles, but if in standing for them, you allow a great evil to continue to exist, your principles mean nothing. -
Quote:Well said.Originally Posted by Lazarillo
He seems to be doing a fair job of it at the moment.
Replacing Tyrant with someone or something equally abhorrent accomplishes nothing. What happens after Tyrant's deposed? Well, now instead of people like Marauder and Neuron running things we have War Dog and Splice. I know, let's create a militant band to depose the new government! We'll make sure everyone has their safety and their freedom! Ooh, except that Scott fellow is pretty on top of things. Maybe we can destabilize him a bit by blowing up that hospital...
The Resistance accomplishes nothing if they don't first hold themselves to a higher standard. There has to be a point where someone draws a line and says "No. We don't do that. We're supposed to be the good guys here." -
Quote:A lot of the Lambda facility is underground and in general underground facilities, barring tactical nuclear devices, will sustain limited damage from airstrikes.Originally Posted by Venture
Support the underground railroad and get as many people as possible out of Praetoria. Hook up with resistance movements in other parts of the world doing the same. Try to build a power base outside of Tyrant's sphere of control. Attempt to derail State atrocities whenever possible. Following the discovery of interdimensional travel attempt to win support from legitimate offworld agents (i.e. not Arachnos, Malta, etc.)
That's what I would do as a Praetorian, mind you. As I said way back in GR's beta, my recommendation to the government as a Primal super who's seen Praetoria would be to either block access to the dimension or, failing that, open portals and throw nukes through them until the planet is uninhabitable or we run out. (One of the reasons why I can't get interested in the new trials is that they don't present any tactical problems that are actually better solved with small groups of superheroes instead of an air strike.) -
Quote:To be fair they've also just implemented the system, and at implementation of any new system there's going to be a dearth of choices, because that's the way development works. After they're done rolling out the system I imagine they'll start adding more choices. There's a significant lack of faith in the dev team to deliver even though for the last three years they've given players - piecemeal of course - almost everything they've asked for from power customization, to new powersets to powerset proliferation to side switching.Originally Posted by Melancton
There once was a thread titled something like "Generic Rant" that featured various posters putting up formulaic responses to the topic and then to previous posts, such as "Obligatory declaration of 'playing since Beta' status" and the like. I guess this thread was overdue for ad hominem slights being deployed.
I think the primary point of departure regarding the Incarnate System is choices. There have been choices available since launch, and a number added on afterwards, that ran in parallel to one another. One could reach the highest level in the game, level 50, through any of these parallel paths. Now that is not the case.
The lore and the backstory can be ignored, but only up to a point. I suppose that point will differ with individuals. But to take an obvious example, if someone wanted to play a villain, the argument could be deployed that they should just ignore the details of "City of Heroes" and pretend that they were doing villainous exploits instead of noble ones. (Indeed, there were many "Rouge Angle of Satin" types in Paragon City Back In The Day.
) Instead, out came "City of Villains," in which the story and lore explicitly supported playing a villain. This Well business is unfortunately shoehorning everyone into being a servant of a "mad" entity that can apparently take control of you at will. There is no other way to advance to the highest levels now.
The discussion, I think, is a valid one to have. We are participating in a comic book story, in essence, and noting that we don't like the way the story is going because it "feels tacked on" or whatever other reason is part of the process, because the storyline being bad will have consequences; there are numerous storylines in venerable comic book series that caused great losses of readership. Perhaps the Devs will catch wind of this, perhaps they will not. It ought to be discussed. And however Wicked Clever it feels to deploy them, responses along the lines of "You are just stupid, and a poophead" are not discussion. -
Quote:It should be noted that we're not ignoring Cole's atrocities - the moral standpoint wants them to end. But by that same moral sandpoint we don't want Calvin Scott in charge of the Resistance. Anything necessary to get Cole out of power is one thing, but there isn't a justification for blowing up a hospital to cause terror.Originally Posted by EvilGeko
OK, so what are you going to do? Allow the Tyrant to stay in power? Engage in futile "just wars" against an almost incalculably stronger opponent. Please do tell. Both sides are bad. We agree on that. When the rubber meets the road what would you do as a super in Praetoria?
By the way, on this point. Scott is a man. Not a super. In a world of supers his ability to maintain any grip on power is marginal.
And just for the record - I'm generally against weapons of mass destruction where more conventional weapons would do the trick, meaning there are several sites of Cole's war machine that could be taken out. a nuclear device probably wouldn't take Cole out at this point, so if Cole was still alive he would be there to try again. But even then a weapon of mass destruction doesn't purposefully target hospitals.
Ye Gods man, we can not support Cole and Scott at the same time. They're both evil and given the choice in real life I wouldn't support either one of them, and instead start my own resistance cell meant to actually do something substantial to take down Cole's war machine. Or do you really think that making people desperate because of Resistance action - thereby solidifying Cole's rhetoric to keep him in power - is justified? I mean seriously. Safety by any means necessary (meaning a lack of freedom) is wrong - but so is freedom by any means necessary (meaning a lack of regulation on behavior, which inevitably leads to violence, whether it be economic violence or what have you). Given the choice I much prefer the responsibility Loyalist path and the Warden path, at least those actors haven't lost sight of what they're fighting for. I think the Wardens need to be a bit more militant, but at least they're not blowing up Cole Memorial. I mean seriously. Can you really justify that to me with the evidence given in game as a just and legal target? -
Quote:Except that they seemed to divorce the Well's sentience with it's power to control powerflow - at least to a certain extent. The well wants Cole to win inasmuch as its the Champion, but the Well also allows Statesman and Recluse to remain Incarnates even though they're a disappointment to it. There also seems to be a limit to the well's control over an individual, if they don't want to be controlled, otherwise Statesman and Recluse would have taken over the world by now. Cole seems to be a singular case - he's not only interested in power, he's interested in gaining power regardless of means, motive or opportunity. The well grants powers to those who seek its power, but at the same time it doesn't seem to have the ability to deny those who seek its power, nor even to stop the powerflow once the valve is opened.Originally Posted by Lazarillo
I think it's more the inherent contradiction that is beating "the Well". Cole's not the problem as much as "Cole controlled by the mad deity-thing that is the source of all our characters powers". It's impossible to beat the Well because doing so would mean we can't have powers anymore.
From the very beginning of the Alpha Slot we're told we're becoming an incarnate the slow way, which will inhibit any power the well has over us; so there has to be some kind of disconnect between its sentience and the mechanism that actually gives out the power.
My point is this: Just because the well favors Cole, and just because the well is the ultimate source of those worlds having super powers, doesn't mean it can do much about our using its power to thwart its plans; all it can do is empower Cole, it can't *depower* us. EDIT: Save for the debuff during Apex and Tin Mage, which doesn't take away power, so much as limit effectiveness for those who haven't been directly exposed to the Well's power (IE the alpha slot) -
Quote:Wait...at what point did they say he can't be defeated? I think that they're going to finish up the incarnate storyline in the next two to three issues (or maybe even two if we get another .5 issue like Alpha Strike) because that will take us all the way to the Omega Slot which will likely be unlocked by doing a Emperor Cole incarnate trial.Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Because the Well has inexplicably gone from being an inert conduit to being The Overgod. And it's insane. Now this wouldn't be quite so bad if our Incarnate powers, and as the Origin of Power implies ALL our powers, didn't come from it. But they do. So it's bad. The multiverse is at the mercy of an insane god that, by its very nature, cannot be defeated. And you thought the Arachnos omnipresence in CoV was bad. (Well ok, maybe you didn't, but a lot of people did.)
Then they'd finish that up and then move on to other threats. Which I would like.
I do think that you're reading too much into it - I get that you don't like it, but you're letting your dislike lead you to conclusions that simply were never there in the first place.
Unless you can find for me where anyone has said that Cole is unbeatable. Extremely tough maybe, but not unbeatable. -
Quote:Having tried them on test, if you like the newer task forces, you'll likely like the incarnate trials - they're difficult, but they play more like a task force than any of the raids in this game which usually just become freeze-frame button mashing. The trials have mini-objectives, and feel like you're accomplishing something throughout. When I finished my first MSR, I couldn't help but think "That's it?"Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
I've been playing nearly 6 years now, 1.5 of them US side. Last week I dinged my first US (and 3rd overall) level 50. (I should be adding another this week as my Widow/Fort is at 48).
So yep, tis about the journey for me, I wasn't even aware I had a destination to be honest.
I've no real interest in the Incarnate TFs really or the Incarnate abilities. (I'll probably try the trials though just to see what they're like). -
Quote:There's an arc in the first Warden arc where you're stopping the bombing of Cole memorial. That's not MM's hospital; considering the Seer Program and the fact that MM is crazy, I would deem Mother's as a military target. Not Cole memorial. And did Calvin Scott think that was a good idea? Yes he did. Are you trying to tell me that you think that bombing that kind of hospital is a good idea? Where mostly people go for treatment?Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Take that to its logical extreme. It's evil to lie right? So if the Resistance has to lie about their membership in the resistance so that the resistance is able to operate and eventually take down Cole, then their lies make the whole enterprise illegitimate? Morality isn't a black or white issue. Real people have to make choices that don't fit neatly into someone's subjective buckets.
Bombing a hospital is wrong. Well what if its Mother Mayhem's hospital? Our heroes attacked that during the Praetorian arc. The existence of innocents in war zone is a given. Certainly you should try to minimize the harm to the populace, but you're going to be confronted with the fact that to accomplish your goals you're going to put innocents to death and sometimes intentionally. Because to get back to my example, Mother Mayhem is a high value enough target that she gots to go even if we take out some of her innocent victims with her.
Because that's much harder to argue - and that's the one that comes under assault in the actual game. -
Quote:Wait, I get that you don't like Praetorian content, but why is being empowered by the well stupid?Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
He isn't from this reality, and he is definitely alien. Of course, if they add Incarnate content with Rularuu he'll probably turn out to be another alternate Marcus Cole or something equally stupid.... No wait. I can't think of a stupider lazier cop-out than that.
They need to really stop explaining everything and start creating things that truly defy explanation. Crap like the Praetorians suddenly becoming a zillion million times more powerful requires explanation, we got one and it's stupid. Rularuu needs tantalizing hints. He doesn't need any explanations for how he suddenly gets more powerful either, we've pretty much been told that he's not at full power right now. He's fragmented and probably still reeling from being sealed off in the Shard. When we fought Ruladak he was still weak, and when we fought Lanaru he was/is crazy. The lore has already established that we've only seen a fraction of Rularuu's true power, so there's no need to make some crap up to justify making him an Incarnate-level threat. -
Quote:Except that I'm not grading on a sliding scale. Bombing a hospital is bombing a hospital. just because someone that you're against is nuking civilians doesn't make what you're doing any better. It's one of the things I hate about moral relativism - yeah, what you're doing might not be "as bad" but that doesn't make it good.Originally Posted by EvilGeko
When the other side enslaves children to be thought police and turns them over to a psychic vampire who will eventually consume their consciousness, it take a long time before you lose moral superiority.
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Quote:See this scares me just as much as the hardcore "Dictatorships can be good" position. There's a line between rebellion and terrorism, and sometimes that's a fine line, but it's kind of like the Supreme Court's position on pornography and art - you know it when you see it. Bombing hospitals does nothing to support your position, it only spreads and causes terror - and make the opposition look really good in the public's eyes when they come down hard. The key is to keep moral superiority while actually hurting the opposing side. For me, it's the major difference between focusing on military targets and civilian ones.Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Darn Straight!
I think I would have no problem that the bombing of the USS Cole was an act of war (EDIT: To be clear, I have a problem with the bombing, but I think it's an act of war not terror because the targets were military), but 9/11 was nothing more than an act of terrorism, even if they were carried out by the same morally bankrupt group for the same reasons. -
Quote:Alien invasions that frequently have no character other than the survival stories of those who fight against it you're not interested in, but a dimensional invasion with people that could very well have motivations that they might talk about eventually you do have a problem with?Originally Posted by Selenir
This precisely.
If the Going Rogue content was all about something else (like an alien invasion rather than a Praetorian invasion which makes no sense), I probably wouldn't be bored already. The Praetorian "bizarro world" is a good side-plot, as I said. It just isn't nearly robust enough to be the main plot like they're trying to make it.
I love me an alien invasion, but alien invasions are rarely good vehicles to get into good meta plots. Invasions in general aren't good for that because the morality of the situation falls away when it becomes a fight for not only your life but you're whole right of existence. -
Quote:My point was only that you (general you) shouldn't bring up the old content to say that the quality has gone down. It hasn't. The writing has been pretty consistently bad. What the new missions are better at is having interesting mission mechanics.Originally Posted by Venture
What makes sense about the Hollows arcs? They're just a bunch of stuff that happened, bordering on Random Events Plots. The same goes for Striga. Croatoa is marginally better.
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Quote:They are not mutually exclusive states of being. It's a common misconception that they are. I've seen plenty of smart people (and I include myself here) do dumb things. There are areas of aptitude. You can be a genius and not be good at things. As a genius you should realize that the things you're not necessarily good at you should probably leave to those who are.Originally Posted by Scythus
And yet they're still capable of developing the most advanced technologies the world has ever known despite being "dumb."
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I think you would have a lot more luck nailing Cooling's arc to the wall on the weakness of it's own arc by not invoking some of the older stuff. Cooling's stuff has a lot of problems, and I really want them to be fixed because as an arc is was a lot of fun to play (and I disagree about the Malta Titan - having it spawn as an EB is a great way to show that you're taking on something that is a major threat that at higher levels spawns only as a boss - mechanics equal story progression there).
But when you look at the older stuff there are a handful of good arcs, and they mostly sit at the higher levels. When I started playing I tried reading the stories and almost quit because the mission arcs outside of the Hollows made very little sense. Don't tell me that the story holes in Cooling's arc are bad but then handwave the absolutely awful padding that you see in a lot of the older stuff as simply a mechanics problem. The padding is a major story problem - way way way too much of my time is spent in fights that ultimately serve no purpose.
Say what you will about Cooling's arc - and there are many problems with it - but ultimately it's short and the mechanics are interesting enough to keep me involved. Writing is more than just the text on the screen, it's also the delivery. And too much of the time in the older arcs were spent with a lot of really awful delivery; and worse than that, too much of the old arcs were spent with really awful delivery while ensuring that it felt like your character just wasn't doing much. Some of the gang war stuff at low levels is interesting, but ultimately dropped. The Vahz arc is interesting, but having the worst in mission debuff in the game on you while fighting Vahz is probably the worst idea ever.
Then there are the Striga contacts. I like the Striga arcs. I really do. But a lot of them seem kind of strung together in a non-intelligible way. "I heard that these guys are being a problem, you should go after them". "I lost my wedding ring, can you recover it?"
So yes, go after Ray Cooling's arc. But don't tell me that the older stuff is better. Because it's really not. A handful of them are - but even there a lot of them are really really long mission arcs with a lot of really annoying hunts. By and large, including the new 1 - 20 stuff Goldside (which, granted, have a great deal of difficulty) the newer content makes a lot more sense in a shorter amount of time than the old stuff. -
Quote:If it happens once it's arrogance. If it happens twice I'm even able to buy that it's arrogance.Originally Posted by Scythus
So ... arrogance means dumb? I'm pretty sure arrogance is more of a pride issue actually.
If it happens five times we're straying into the land of arrogance defeating intelligence when you should contract out. When arrogance overcomes success time and time again we're straying into the land of dumb.
EDIT:
If your goal is success over all else. Which it frequently seems to be. -
Quote:Smart people are smart enough to know when to get another smart person to do what they can't.Originally Posted by Scythus
That's more of a tactical issue rather than intelligence, isn't it? Most scientists aren't going to be a miliatary strategist, for example.
Which appears to be the major difference between smart and dumb - well, that and the ability to divide 50 by 2.
God, I wish I were joking. -
Quote:To be fair the really smart villains almost always make really really dumb decisions.Originally Posted by Scythus
Yeah, let's see you build a time machine or a giant forcefield that engulfs the city and then we'll talk about "smart."
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I'm really not entirely sure what people are upset about. If someone in the EU has @Ajax454 or @1 Minute to Midnight, let me know. I'd be willing to change them. But I really really really don't understand what people are upset about.
I mean, it' snot like anything is going to happen to your identity; and just as well, wouldn't anyone who's a global friend keep you on their global friend list? -
Quote:For me, the main reason I never got into PvP isn't just that I'll likely lose - I'm likely to do a lot of things where I'll lose, or even have a losing record. What I'm not interested in doing is competing in something that I'm going to lose at and not have a likely way to learn how to win.Originally Posted by Slashman
Not that I'm saying your friends are being dishonest, but I often question that point of view when I hear it.
You have people who say they'd much rather cooperate with others than ever compete with them in a game. I'm going to assume those same people never play Scrabble, Monopoly, Chess or any other game where they might win and someone else might lose? I mean...they never competed in sports at school and basically live their lives with an unquenchable hunger to never do better than the other guy?
In my experience, most of the time it really comes down to: 'I don't want to lose, I can't guarantee that my skills will let me win so I won't play.' That's just my personal experience though.
PvP did not harbor a very good environment to learn how to compete in. There was always a lot of vitriol, and between the vitriol, and the fact that the builds I enjoyed playing weren't particularly useful in PvP (although that has likely changed since the last time) I just never had a positive experience in PvP. The community that PvP'd in general weren't very friendly to new players, and even players that wanted to learn. So take that for what you will. -
Quote:And aren't people already complaining about the lack of resolution of storylines in this game?Originally Posted by Jophiel
Easiest solution would be to not have the TF end in complete resolution. A TF to take over Atlas Park or something rather than a TF to destroy the whole world.
Will Atlas Park be conquered later? Nope. No more than Steel Canyon is in burning rubble after you complete Apex. But battle lines move back and forth and a "reclaiming" of Atlas can be handwaved in as easily as the continued Rikti invasions around Miss Liberty. -
Quote:The problem is they wouldn't be open ended TF's because 1 TF would end with Cole winning and the other with him losing. Which storyline does the game follow *after* that. This isn't a STF/LRSF thing since those aren't dueling TF's. This would be unprecedented.Originally Posted by Jophiel
Do you think we're arguing on this point? I said that the idea of "dueling TFs" or an open-ended conflict where you can side with Cole doesn't bother me because MMORPGs don't usually resolve stuff anyway so why should I be upset about two TFs with conflicting "endings"?