Bloodspeaker

I could definitely get behind the idea of muzzles for tier 2 demons and soft bunny slippers for all the bots.

This IS a PUG we're talking about...

I wish toon names had a high enough character limit for me to name a toon "Your character name makes me /facepalm in a bad way"

Links added for the inquisitive. And your last sentence there is essentially key here: "an evolution that favored communication." Yes, biologically we have developed in a manner that supports communication, something I wasn't particularly clear on previously. Perhaps I should have stated that vocalization with intent to communicate is very different from the complex nuances necessary for language.
And again, such a biological feature would HAVE to exist in order to support the vast social groups that humans develop. The good of group must, to some degree, take precedence over the good of self for this to happen.
Which was my perhaps poorly stated point, earlier. The biological support structures for language and morality are as much a part of humans as the biological support for bipedal locomotion. Likewise, in the absence of a social structure that trains us in the use of these faculties, they atrophy to the point that they can, apparently, NEVER be learned. Simply put, these behaviors, in and of themselves, are not "natural", in the sense that they are not as instinctive as eating and mating. They have to be learned.

Morality, in regard to the "group over self" concept, is almost certainly MUCH more learned, based upon the social structure in which it develops. Certainly, it could commonly be construed as "moral" to do things which promote the survival of one's group. Does this make genocide a "moral' decision? Choosing to destroy or intensely marginalize another social group in favor of one's own? Most of us, I think, would answer "No." I'm not going to go into the lengthy discussion of the kind of social development that leads to such things, or the psychological principles that support them.

Yes, after... how many thousands of years? How long did it take for humanity to develop any true language? Any bets on whether or not our basic concepts of morality took essentially the same time to develop? Probably a fair guess.

My points being that there is a considerable difference between communication and language, and morality is neither a mystically nor biologically ingrained human trait, any more than language is. Believing so is a failure to recognize the power of the choices we make. Language and morality are as much human inventions as nuclear reactors are.

It's more basic than this. If a human isn't raised in the presence of language, the ability never occurs "naturally" - feral humans don't HAVE language. It's natural for ANY animal with vocal cords to VOCALIZE in order to express fundamental states or desires - "*moan* hungry!", "*rahrr!* angry!", "*eeee!* afraid!" That's it.

Morality is just as "natural"... i.e. it ISN'T.

Saying otherwise is naively optimistic, and flat wrong. Makes for a comforting world view, and anyone who wants to see humanity that way is welcome to do so. I prefer the realism of knowing that morality is NOT my natural state, taking comfort in knowing I was raised that way, and seeing my own lapses of morality as opportunities to better myself.

Never mind the fact that, assuming the desired backset is available (i.e. not poison or ff), an attackless corruptor will be more effective than a petless mastermind. Every time.

Absolutely, as long as it's handled with a modicum of civility.
Yes... and no. It really depends on what you're expecting someone else's toon to be capable of, which I think is the crux of this particular issue. As far as I'm concerned, using a 2-person team example, if they are capable of soloing standard content with their character as-is ("gimped", "inefficient", whatever you choose to call it), then they should have no problem handling their half of the typical combats we encounter together. Since I know *I* am, I'm not overly concerned about them holding aggro, providing heals, buffs or debuffs. They're *nice* to have along, but I simply don't require them. The larger the team becomes, the *less* this actually matters to me, as long as the other people didn't build in the same way.
Both of these things are a far cry from kicking someone off the team, which to me is the MMO equivalent of spitting in someone's eye.
And I don't have a problem with applying judgment to each situation, as long as a) "guilty" isn't the inevitable outcome, and b) "execution" isn't the only answer.

Kicking someone off a team for NO OTHER reason beyond not having 1-2 specific powers is roughly the same thing, as far as I'm concerned.

Ugh, sorry about that. I'd mostly managed to forget that character.

How rude...

And again, we're back to your assumption that a toon that can provide team buffs, but DOESN'T, has no way to contribute to a team's success. Yes sir, it IS your arrogance we're talking about.

I'd agree with this... if fighting GMs and AVs were the only reason I formed teams.

Nor does a competent team need more buffs. Don't get me wrong, I like and use the TT powers, but saying you require someone else's toon (i.e. NOT YOURS) to have them is the epitome of arrogance.
This, I'd agree with.

Has nothing to do with creating a "theme" character. Stop acting like the notion insults your sense of balance. If you can't survive having an SOA on the team without the team buffs, you must not be able to survive without an SOA on the team in the first place, yes? Would you die if you replaced a TT-equipped SOA with another Brute (for example)? I hope not.

You act as if team buffs are the only thing ANY character has the ability to bring to a team. You will never be anything but wrong.

Conversely, to anyone out there that's actually OPPOSED to getting the team buffs on their SOA... all I can say is "dual build" - if a build fascist is going to insist you have them in order to team with them, and you're actually (for some odd reason) concerned about this, give yourself an out.

Yeah, I actually "cursed" the devs during the closed beta for this... for "making" me take more than one personal attack on an MM. Partly because a) yes, the attacks ARE nice from a utilitarian standpoint, and b) they just plain look freaking awesome.

LOL, you and I need to team our necro/storms sometime. Mine, not surprisingly, is also an undead pirate. An obvious concept, really.

He's still a "baby" (hit lvl 16 today), but seriously, look me up on JFA 2010 sometime.

He won't do that til after he nerfs Regen.

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Yes, it's a joke.

Give it up. Build fascists are never going to change. Besides, if I get kicked from a team because I don't have a specific power, the leader of the team has saved me the trouble of figuring out what an idiot they are the hard way. Everybody wins.

Think the texture on that cape needs fixing, first. I know sandpaper on my back would tick ME off...

Well, I don't do this often, but...

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>.>

<.<

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Squee!!!

Gonna give new meaning to THIS toon's background, I can tell you!