Bill Z Bubba

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One thing I find odd is that brute dark and fire do more dmg than the scrapper version, but scrapper db does more than brute db, anybody guess why that is?

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Gloom. Brute Dark and Fire use it. Brute DB doesn't.

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that SS is too good for scrappers is complete BS

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Yup.

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I understand that you believe tanker damage should be raised because of this.


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I actually don't.

Asking for a damage buff would actually help, but I actually agree with you partially on being able to use our longevity at surviving without counter-intuitive slow downs.

For the record: if the devs were to sustain the "75% scrapper of damage" that has been tossed around, the tanker damage should actually be .9. But again, I personally would just rather ask for the endurance efficiency required to sustain the tanker slower killing speed.

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Flip side to that is the fact that scrappers don't have 75% the survivability of tankers, do they?

I hear you, Starsman. I really do. But nothing you've shown me so far has been enough to sway me from the belief that for X amount of endurance, tankers shouldn't be more efficient with toggles just as scrappers shouldn't be more efficient with attacks.

It's all moot, man. I understand that you don't feel that tankers' greater mitigation is enough to account for their lower damage.

I understand that you believe tanker damage should be raised because of this.

I disagree.

I don't play tanks because they are too slow on the killing front for me. I'd rather have Just enough mitigation to get keep me standing long enough to take the spawn in question out.

Tank mitigation is high enough that they get to be leisurely as they destroy spawns. It doesn't matter if all I have is whirling hands when I can set it on auto and go drink a beer while the spawn gets slowly pulverized.

If you want tank damage to be higher so that they kill faster, fine, let's do it. But you have to give up an equal amount of mitigation to get it.

I was also surprised to see so much Brutin on the top half of the list. Apparently Gloom is REALLY good.

I was even more surprised to see claws so close to the bottom. OTOH, claws is capable of some mighty fine AoE damage output, so that may make some sense.

The last surprise for me was energy melee. I'm going to have to respec my em/fa now base on this information.

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Do you actually agree the Tanker should kill at 40% the scrapper speed?

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Considering that a well built tank can herd up to the aggro cap and then go for a smoke while a scrapper doing the same will faceplant?

Sure.

IOs will do that for ya.

Now that I have the numbers all done, IOs increased my main's DPS by 29.22% and I'm not done tweaking yet.

Anyone want to trade a Gladiator Dam-Res Debuff proc for 2 Luck of the Gambler +7.5 recharge?

EDIT: Corrected buff%

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What do you do once you have a level 50 with all purple IO sets in every power?

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Solo more pylons.
Solo more TF/SFs.
Tweak the build even harder.
Respec every time a new IO is added to the game that can improve your build.
Kill more Rikti.

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Only the best defense applies. This also is how the game resolves multiple damage type defenses. For example, some attacks are both energy and smashing damage. The higher defense value determines how much defense you get against such attacks.

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This. When you're attacked, you use the highest defense you have versus it, whether positional or typed.

For example, let's say you're attacked with Fireball.
Fireball does Smashing and Fire damage, and it's an AoE attack. If you have 15% Smashing defense, 20% Fire defense, and 5% AoE defense, your defense versus the attack is 20%, because that's the highest of the three applicable ones.

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Attack type and damage type are two different beasts. An attack could do smashing damage but be typed energy, thus going against energy defense. This is rarely the case, but it apparently did occur in the past, and there may still be existing oddities although I can't think of any right now.

As an example, claws focus is typed Range and Lethal and does Lethal Damage.

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The need to slow down, however, is a disadvantage not shared by the scrapper. That's a sign of imbalance. This is also why I don't like the argument that Defenders have an advantage in buffing others, and that they pay for that by not having much offense or personal defense. Being able to buff others is not an advantage when solo. Thus, a solo Defennder is more disadvantaged than other classes, and that isn't fair.

The same applies to Tankers relative to Scrappers in this case.

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The need to be fast for a scrapper is directly due to its lowered mitigation. If it takes too long, it dies and fails the race.

It's balanced. No change needed.

If you just want the results of this single target attack chain DPS calculations, scroll to the bottom.

DISLAIMER: These attack chains may not be the best out there. There were chosen by general consensus with the help of fellow players.

Methodology:
Numbers derived from Red Tomax's City of Data

Cast times altered using Arcanaville's tick interval modification roundup((base/.132)+1)*.132 and all cast times listed in this post are showing this modified value.

All attack chains set at a total recharge value of 250%. If that level of recharge left gaps in the chain, those gaps were calculated and added to the total chain time.

All attacks were given 33% endurance reduction for EPS calculations.

250% recharge on BuildUp gives it a 37% uptime
90/3.5 = 25.714 I made the assumption that the BU buff started instantly but the recharge didn't start until after the cast time was completed. Cast for BU is 1.32 + 25.714 = 27.034 of which 10 seconds is 36.99%, round up to 37 seconds. Build for brutes is 80%. Therefore, average damage gain from BU for a brute is .37*base*.8

Soul Drain uptime follows the same logic. 2.508 cast; 34.286 recharge; .81535 uptime
Soul Drain checked for 10, 3 and 1 enemies.

Rage was tricky to get the crash value, but I figured it out the same as above. 68.571 rec + 1.32 cast and then rounded up to 70. Uptime 1.717 and a crash every 120 seconds after Rage starts. Turned out to be 30 seconds down out of 270 seconds. So I removed 11% of Superstrength's DPA from the total chain DPA.

Followup and Blinding Feint were double stacked.


The Attack Chains:

BRUTE DARK Midnight Grasp/Gloom/Smite/Siphon Life/Gloom/Smite
BRUTE FIERY Gloom/Incinerate/Greater Fire Sword
BRUTE STONE Seismic Smash/Stone Fist/Gloom/Stone Fist/Heavy Mallet
BRUTE STRENGTH KnockOut Blow/Gloom/Haymaker/Punch/Gloom/Haymaker
BRUTE ENERGY Energy Transfer/Gloom/BoneSmasher/Total Focus
BRUTE ELECTRIC Gloom/Chain Induction/Jacob's Ladder/Charged Brawl
BRUTE DUAL BLADES Blinding Feint/Ablating Strike/Sweeping Strike/Ablating Strike
BRUTE BATTLEAXE Swoop/Gash/Cleave/Chop
BRUTE WARMACE Clobber/Jawbreaker/Shatter
SCRAP DARK Midnight Grasp/Smite/Siphon Life/Smite
SCRAP FIERY Incinerate/Cremate/Greater Fire Sword
SCRAP BROADSWORD Headsplitter/Hack/Disembowel/Hack
SCRAP KATANA Golden Dragonfly/Gambler's Cut/Soaring Dragon/Gambler's Cut
SCRAP MARTIAL ARTS Storm Kick/Crane Kick/Storm Kick/Crippling Axe Kick
SCRAP CLAWS Followup/Slash/Focus/Strike
SCRAP DUAL BLADES Blinding Feint/Ablating Strike/Sweeping Strike/Ablating Strike
SCRAP SPINES Ripper/Dark Blast/Throw Spines/Dark Blast


THE RESULTS from best DPS to worst:
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
Brute Dark w/ 10 222.7 4.53 EPS
Scrap Dark w/ 10 222 4 EPS
Brute Stone 218 5.2 EPS
Brute Fiery 213.2 3.83 EPS
Brute Strength 212.6 4.59 EPS
Brute Energy 207.4 3.84 EPS
Brute Warmace 203.4 4.71 EPS
Brute Dark w/ 3 201.7 4.53 EPS
Brute Dark w/ 1 194.7 4.53 EPS
Scrap Fiery 190.3 3.48 EPS
Brute Battleaxe 187.2 4.34 EPS
Scrap Dark w/ 3 181 4 EPS
Scrap Dual Blades 169.7 4.42 EPS
Scrap Dark w/ 1 169.3 4 EPS
Brute Electric 169 4.69 EPS
Brute Dual Blades 168.3 4.42 EPS
Scrap Katana 168.3 4.16 EPS
Scrap Martial Arts 165.4 4.24 EPS
Scrap Broadsword 154.8 3.85 EPS
Scrap Claws 154.2 3.46 EPS
Scrap Spines 135.9 4.22 EPS
</pre><hr />

If you would like to have the spreadsheet to use for your own purposes or just to check my math, you can have it from here. Warning: Spreadsheet is messy. I'll go in and clean it up later if you want to wait on the download.

You're still completely ignoring that the tank has the mitigation to allow him to slow his attacks down, thus allowing more time for his recovery to do its thing.

If the tank can withstand more damage longer, he can take longer to defeat the enemy and end up with the same amount of endurance after it's all said and done that the scrapper ended up with.

Taking longer to defeat the enemy means he has more time to recover endurance.

And if I only need to exceed 4.58 dam per second, I don't think that's going to be a big deal.

So until you can show me that the tank's increased mitigation and decreased damage somehow do not fairly correlate to the scrapper's increased damage and decreased mitigation, I will unable to accept any change you put forth that will buff tanks.

If it's anything like claws... you don't want to know.

I did double check the other brute buffs and it was only BU that I had missed.

I checked out the SetIOs and the average end-red seemed to be in the 30% range.. so I went with 33% per power.

And it's all done.

Best DPS is at 222.7
Worst is 135.9
Highest EPS is 5.2
Lowest is 3.46

I'll type up explanations for all my calculations and post the entire thing then.

phew

Iggy, went with your mace chain. At 250% recharge there's no gap.

I think I'm done. I think I've found all the errors. I think I've got pretty good chains for everything.

Sarrate,I haven't figured out EPS on the chains yet, but I'll get that done before I post this.

I gotta tell yall, I don't like what I see.

Claws only beat out spines.

Gonna go cry in my soup now.

For this run, I'm doing 5% of the total of base+enh+damagebuff added to that total unless a power like eviscerate with its 15% crit chance is used and then for that power only I do 15% of the above total added to the total.

So on the spreadsheet it looks like this:

Line1: Base: base
Line2: Enh: .95*base
Line3: BU up 37% of the time: .37*base
Line 4: Crits: .05*(sum(line1:line3)
Line5: Totals: sum(line1:line4)

For eviscerate that .05 became .15
For storm kick it became .1

And thank you. Just found another error. Brutes only get 80% buff on buildup.

Thanks, Nicro. Missed that completely. Using your chain.

Last request:

Because we don't know the redraw times for Axe, Mace and Spines, I need chains that don't involve pool powers.

Thoughts?

I knew it was a joke. Now get in the other thread and tell me what's wrong with my math, ya slacker.

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You shouldn't put the Steadfast Protection in Earth's Embrace. It only lasts 120 seconds, which is to say it won't be very reliable. Stick it it something like Stone Skin that you'll have running all the time, and that will benefit from the resistance. I went ahead and made that swap before calculating. I also gave you High Pain Threshold.

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Untrue, good sir! The steadfast +3% Def IO functions as a set bonus, not a proc. (It has no 120s duration and shows up in your set bonuses window.) As such, it's always on, whether the power is on of off.

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Ooh! Sick burn! :P

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We do not burn our fellow scrappers! We assist when they is confuzzled!

I'll assume I'm wrong and do a quickie DPS calculation the old way and see if it doesn't add up to how I'm doing it now.

FU Cast(arcanatime 1.056
FU Dam: 50.05

Slash Cast: 1.584
Slash Dam: 82.58

Focus Cast: 1.32
Focus Damage: 86.96

Strike Cast: 1.32
Strike Dam: 67.57

Total Chain Cast: 5.28
Total Chain Damage: 287.16

Buffs: 75% from FU and 95% from enhancements

287.16 * (1+.75+.95) = 775.32

Add 5% for chance to crit: 814.0986

814.0986/5.28 = 154.185341

Calculation from spreadsheet: 154.1851154

Discrepancy can be accounted for due to rounding.

So... am I missing something painfully obvious? (We all know it wouldn't be the first time.) Cuz you're making me think I'm smoking crack.

Did you figure in procs? The charts I'm working on now don't take any procs into consideration at all.

Also, correction on the FU/S/F/S/FU/F/S/F chain: With 250% recharge, there's a pause before the 2nd slash and another pause before the last focus. New total is 155.2 DPS.

Edit: And I'm only considering 5% chance for crits unless the power specifically has a crit buff listed.

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Are those numbers factoring in the +dam benefit of FU?

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doublestacked for +.75

The reason I got higher the other day on the pylon run is because I have a chance for BU and chance for lethal in FU, a chance for BU and an Apocalypse chance for neg in Focus, the Achilles' -DR and hecatomb chance for Neg in Slash and finally the ToD chance for Neg in swipe.

Werner, another note:

Fu, Slash, Focus, Strike: 154.2 DPS
Fu, Slash, Eviscerate: 153.4 DPS
Fu, Slash, Focus, Slash, Fu, Focus, Slash, Focus: 159.4 DPS

Guess who's on the BOTTOM of the pack for scrapper DPS right now?

For comparison:
BS: HS, Hack, Dis, Hack: 154.8 DPS

But both the BS chain and the FU, Slash, Evis chain can slot both the Achilles' Heel (2 Ls, Bill.. TWO Ls in Achilles!!!) and the Gladiator -DR procs.

EDIT: For thos wondering, these numbers are different from earlier because I've made the following changes:

Yanked all references to Shield's AAO

Settled on a set recharge rate of 250%

Added any pauses in a chain because of the set recharge to the total time of the chain

Set BU uptime to 37%

Set SoulDrain's uptime to 81.535% and calculated for 10, 3 and 1 enemies

Almost done adding sets, but I'm going to have to leave gloom out of the BA and WM chains since we don't know exactly how long the redraw times are.

Werner,

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I believe those goes into PBAoE...

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What Iggy said. The Achiles' Heel -DR proc is from a defense debuff set and the Gladiator -DR proc(I believe) is in a melee PBAoE set.

Unfortunately, Shockwave doesn't take melee PBAoE sets. It only takes Ranged AoE. Which is dumb as it's a cone just like Eviscerate.

Grr.

Grr because although the end suckage would be extreme, the chain FU, Slash, Focus, SW with a -DR in slash and another -DR in SW would be sweeeeet.

But.. that's why I'm looking closely at the FU, Slash, Evisc chain.

I stalk myself... I don't need any help.