BeautifulEnd

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Warning: Detecting point of 0 credibility.

[ QUOTE ][*] Add a TF for SKULS.


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You just lost all the credibility you built up in the previous paragraphs with this one...

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What does a desire to Kill Skuls have to do with credibilty. I guess that means I just *Detected Extreme Humor Bias*

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I just think they should keep SJ/SS the same, while getting rid of some setback for fly. But that's just me.

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Totally agreed. Thats what Nova form Khelds are, and who says their overpowered?

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Sorry, folks, but anyone who thinks the SJ and SS change was only due to PvP has had their head in the sand for the last year. The fliers usually make at least one major thread a month pointing out that currently fly has FIVE major drawbacks to use, while SS and SJ have maybe one each. If only one of those is changed, it's still not quite justice, but it's certainly long, long overdue.

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My question is if Fly had so many drawbacks, why did some many people (myself included use it).

My answer was its advantages still out weighed the weaknesses.

But the fact that some people style of play was "overpowered" means that it was bound to happen I guess. I hope your style of play never becomes overpowered.

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All I keep thinking is I hope they remember to send "The Flash (TM)" a memo concerning the change to his powers.

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Synapse also, if the sample of the comic we have is any indication.

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Us: we are having fun with this AT.
States: well we better nerf that right now, before others have fun too.



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States is a Puritan! Oh noes!

Well, as I said to Pilcrow said a while back, if States think we do ranged damage well, and that scrappers are at more risk in melee, I think that we should have equivalent defenses (of what ever kind, I prefer active defenses like holds over passive ones like toggle debuffs and strait resists/def/regen) against ranged attacks. Or in other words, we should be as good at ranged defense as scrappers are at melee defense.

This wouldn't be my favorite change, but based on State's quotes, they would seem the kind that his world view would inspire.

Of course State's real world view now seems to be tanks should be better than every other AT at nearly every role.

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Guys, this isn't some magical mystery tour. We all know the numbers. It's been confirmed that Blaster and Scrapper base damage is the same.

Here's two single target damage sets. Both get Build Up, both set a low end single target, a medium AoE, and a high end single target.

Let's look!

Lightning Bolt - 4.5556 Brawls / Crane Kick - 4.5556 Brawls
Ball Lightning - 2.8333 Brawls / Dragon's Tail - 2.7778 Brawls
Zapp - 7.6667 Brawls / Eagle's Claw - 5.5556 Brawls

Taking into account Zapp's recharge rate and activation time, they sure look like equivalent damage to me....

This is not an arguable topic (although I'm sure someone will try ). The only difference between Blaster Ranged attacks and Scrapper Melee attacks is .... how they are slotted.

Blaster Melee attacks actually do more damage than Scrapper attacks do, which is one of the reasons I take and use them...to actually do my job in a team, the job of Hurting
Things More Than Most Other People.

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Odd how you considered the recharge and animation on Zapp, but ignored the fact that the other three attacks for MA also have faster animation and recharges (except BL which does DoT).

Your number show why people would think blasters do more damage, but leaves out the things that show they do less.

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Come on! You can't see how another AT doing more damage than a blaster under optimal conditions for the blaster is unbalanced? Then I guess their is no further point in bothering to talk to you.

I though you were interested in sincere discussion, you just want to preserve the status quo.

[/ QUOTE ] For like the sixteenth time...where is this true?

Optimal conditions for the blaster are dumpster full of an infinite number of held mobs. Is there some power that does more damage than Nova at damage cap?

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Oh, okay, I guess I misunderstood you somewhere along the line. Must have been my bad. Guess I really did do a strawman there.

Come on! You can't see how another AT doing more damage than a blaster under optimal conditions for the blaster is unbalanced? Then I guess their is no further point in bothering to talk to you.

I though you were interested in sincere discussion, you just want to preserve the status quo.

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Statesman's really old. Marcus Cole found his inner strength in the "far east" after WWI, and became the Statesman. He's not quite kung-fu, so I don't know what's up with the far east bit. Also, he's natural. No magic, no mutation, no etc...

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WHo says he's natural? Marcus simply said that he'd unlocked his inner will, abut it was clear that he was pretty vague about the whole thing, so who know what exactly that entangles.

He COULD be a mutant. Maybe his inner will is his born gift. It could be that he tasted eastern mysticism. We don't know.

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Jack Emmer did.

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Hasn't Statesman confirmed that he's an 'Incarnate' or something like that? States did a thread post about future Epic ATs and threw out a few names for Epic ATs they have planned internally. 'Incarnate' or something like that was mentioned, and somebody else (non-red name) followed up and said that they heard that that's what Statesman was.

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Statesman is an Incarnate, just like Lord Recluse. Statesman himself has said this. What an "Incarnate" is, is up to anyones guess.

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It is the same man, Statesman is immortal. Look for more details about his origin, his powers and how he is tied to Lord Recluse this fall in the upcoming novel: The Web of Arachnos.

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And now we know Statesman is immortal Dorian Grey anyone?!

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The Picture of Marcus Cole! How unspeakably hideous is it after his life of horrid deeds. Oh wait, he's a good guy, hows that work out?

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That said, Full Auto, Total Focus and Shocking Grasp (I think that's the TF for elec), are very good power.

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Shocking Grasp is a single-target melee hold. The Ice PbAoE Sleep is probably quite good for solo play with the Ice primary - I would guess it's actually better than the nukes.

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It would be better if it slept things stronger than minions. As is, it is just terrible.

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I suppose there are Japanese fanboys among the Hmong, just like in whitebread America. How many Caucasian heroes are there currently running around with katanas? Hm?

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Hmmm, I saw a Hissing Chicken over on Pinnacle running around with one, though I think he was actually trying to cross the road.

As for the Tsoo, place the tip of your tongue on the roof of your mouth then say "soo" normally. That should prolly get ya close.
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Or you can say Joong like the Hmong. Sorry couldn't 'elp it.

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As a blaster, I can one shot a white con minion with my snipe, most of the time. Any minion I can one shot with snipe, I can two shot with my other heavy hitting powers. A scrapper (without a crit) can not two shot a minion.

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My MA scrapper can two shot a minion, and with a crit I've one-shotted oranges. And the Oranges I've one shotted are DE Fungi, and MA does not have the most damaging attacks.

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My DA scrapper can 1 shot a yellow minion. Crits can 1 shot a red minion. This is without using Soul Drain. With, enemies fear, as Smite 1 shots whites.

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Blasters have better final powers in each powerset (Primary and Secondary) than Scraps do. Although I guess some of those perma-MoGers and perma-Unstoppablers might argue with me. But have you guys seen Nova? Wish I could do that with my Scrapper.

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Sigh, how often to I have to explain to scrappers they wouldn't really like Nova.

Look, against the kinds of enemies most scrappers fight, it wouldn't do that heavy damage, but would drop all of your toggles getting you killed.

And MoG and Elude are so much better than Hot Feet, Frozen Aura, Blizzard, Full Auto, Nova, Inferno, Total Focus, Thunderous Blast, Shocking Grasp, and Auto-Turrent it isn't funny. Even unstoppably is better the Hot Feet, Frozen Aura, and Auto-Turrent. Soul Transfer is bad, but I'd say Hot Feet is worse.

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Are the slashes and, or or arguments......
takes 20+ minions and 14-17 lt's and 0 bosses?
or
takes 20+ minions or 14-17 lt's......

must be and...so my first post here isn't even correct....


the 3 +3 minions= challenge should be: 20+ minions + 15 lt's= challenge

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Actually I'm pretty sure it is or, based on the previous test States described.

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Has anyone done any datamining to show who does more damage on average in a team from lvls 1-50? Is it blasters or scrappers? Why do I get the feeling it's blasters?


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I am pretty sure that the Dev's have the numbers. The fact that Statesman did not come out and say that blasters deal more damage than scrappers kind throws your assumption in some murky waters.



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Actually, if you go back the addition of critical he said outright that these made scrappers the highest damage AT.

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To be fair, he said "highest single target damage, but he still did say that.

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I have a few things to say...

Being an elec/elec blaster I have (as many consider) the worst secondary...

1. Electric Fence...holds for abit with some damage...Ranged.
2.Charged Brawl-Melee
3.Elec Field-Melee Range
4.Havok Punch-Melee
5.Build Up-Not Really an attack
6.THunder Clap-Melee attack that does no damage
7.Thunder Strike- Melee attack that does same damage as Havok Punch
8.Power Sink-melee range power that drains enemys end and gives you it
9.Shocking Grasp-Melee range hold.

7 Melee Range Powers 1 Ranged Hold and Build Up.
You may ask What was states smoking when he did this?"

Well heres my opinion. In conjuction with the Electricity primary this set is well done. I have had all of these powers through the course of my career as my main, I have respeced many of them but still used them all. The powers work well because the main function of an Elec blaster is to drain endurance. You must drain end at melee range with short circuit and once your there they cant attack you. I keep a steady flow of my 2 end drain powers and they are all useless, even bosses higher then me. I can now use Havok Punch which is a one hit kill attack for even conned enemies. All of my secondary powers become highly efficient. In fact when Im in melee range I am better than ranged. I never run out of endurance, with and without stamina because I use power sink frequently. So after a few minutes I have taken out a large mob of +1s without a scratch and without using my alpha.

Right now..the 40s are the funnest and easiest part of the game for my blaster, I never team unless Im fighting an AV or have run out of missions. Especially now that he has Temp Invulnerability which enables more risky draining runs.

So basically..for this power set I dont think the melee secondary issue is a problem. Sure I only have 4 powers from the set now, and its nowhere near as usefull as devices is but it works well with the Elec primary.

BUT as for a blasters role...I still think we are threatened by Scrappers.

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/elec is actually probably the 3rd best blaster secondary, and I actually think most will agree with me. True you have to use elec primary to really take advantage, but /fire and /ice are seen as just generally bad, much more than /elec.

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Constantly upping powers is a long-term lose-lose situation. Politicaly expedient, ultimately destructive.

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You're right here, but only if you apply it to every AT, and no one here is asking for say, tankers or scrappers to be boosted.

If scrappers or tankers were too powerful (lets call this a contrafactual so that no one gets upset) then increaseing of the others to make it so they were as powerful, albeit in different areas, is what we like to call game balance. It's not easy to do, but it isn't bad in the long run or "ultimately destructive as you claim.

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It assumes that players will recognize when teaming creates a mutual advantage.

[/ QUOTE ] That one is just flat wrong. All teams are not created equal. First, there is only a team advantage when you have a competent team. Not all players can recognize this. The vast majority of players I team with, have very little understanding of other players powers. This improves with lvl..and PvP will also improve this, but to recognize an advantage, you need to correctly understand:

1) How your powers work
2) How your teammates powers work
3) How the enemies powers work
4) How the enemy AI works.
5) How to achieve synergies combining 1-4.

I'd say most players in the game (not on the boards) score about 40-60% on that exam.


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This seems to be the best point you make and is a good reason why blasters need help. As you note, even if blasters had a role as team damage dealer, and did it great, they'd still have a hard time, just like pre-32 controllers because of the stupidity of a large amount of the player base when it comes to teaming.

I think you are right here, and I really included this one as a type of reductio to show how far from balanced, and to use your terms "fun" a blaster is.

But then you say this.

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It also has the warrent of its claims that if a blaster doesn't do enough damage teamed to beat out some other AT solo than they aren't balanced.

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Again. We have a disconnect between what the game dictates and what you want to be true. There is no warranty that blasters should be better than scrappers or tankers soloing. And as far as "beating out some other AT solo," what does that mean? Defenders solo much slower than blasters, but can do so with lower risk. Many, many blasters argue that the fastest xp is achieved with some debt. That the time it takes to avoid debt results in lower xp/hour if debt is acquired. Not only that...they are going to halve the debt in the upcoming issue. So now faster arresting will be even more advantages

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The point of this was if a blaster whose role is to be a damage dealer is outdamaged (and for the most part the outdamagers are "support" ATs like tanks and controllers) when he is in "optimal conditons" aka a group, by someone who doesn't need a group, this shows that the blaster AT is too weak. Risk doesn't matter here. Assume that grouped blasters and solo tanks have equal risk (the tank actually has less risk). If the solo tank does more damage and kills more enemies than a blaster in a group, why play as a blaster?

Also, any blaster that argues that you get exp faster with some debt is a retard. That would be impossible. Now risking debt is another story, and with risks their should be rewards. But actually having debt lowers exp. If you intend to always have some debt, better to just fight mobs that give half exp, then you won't have to go to the hospital from time to time. And if you can beat guys that give a small amount more than exp then you win over the other guys.

I don't see how you can think that other ATs defeating more experience solo than grouped blasters is a good thing for the blaster AT.

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Maybe I make sammies faster than some, but I think I could make one before my friends old /Invuln died, as long as DP was on.

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And there's the key phrase: "my friends old /invuln". Because everyone- me included- remembers their OWN deaths so much more clearly.

I'm not taking any sandwich-making bets.

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Well, I did play him a time or too. That said, I could make a hundred sammies and return to find my own regen unharmed.

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Maybe I make sammies faster than some, but I think I could make one before my friends old /Invuln died, as long as DP was on.

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I should point out that /Inv is significantly more powerful that /Regen except against Psi/Toxic opponents. I think it works out to something like 20 even con minions will, on a good day, match the regeneration of the /Inv if Def and Resist are both capped.

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I won't say your a liar, but that hasn't been my experience with the sets. Perhaps thats one of the things that works better on paper.

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Er... and who would that be exactly?

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Orochi and Filburt come immediately to mind. That's not complete list, just the two names that I can recall (Orochi because it's very recent, Filburt because that's apparently his favorite thing in these threads).

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I'm against tank mages, at least as far as not everyone in this game is a tank mage (maybe if everyone was I wouldn't have a problem with tank/scraps/post 32 controllers)

As it currently stands Tankers have the best defences in the game, and the highest single target attack in the game, with the only downfall of that being that if you herd and stack too many mobs at one place you can accidentally kill yourself, it also has a set designed to protect itself through killing everything around it, which means it's fairly safe and very damaging.

Scrappers are about the same as that.

Post 32 controllers are what really get me in the risk/reward senario, the worst offender, gets an invincable tank team, and summonable energy blasters, the others, except mind (and maybe gravity, I'm not sure on it's damage output with the sings.) can do about the same, and once they summon these pets, they can just Phase shift and let the pets go to town, or die, who cares, no XP debt.

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Actually, to be fair, I'd say that tanks are more unbalanced than scrappers, at least in a few sets and a few builds. The thing is scrappers have been unbalanced longer (as have blasters, but the wrong way).

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I imagine the scrappers who cant are either dark or invuln, and relying on their decreased resistance caps? or is 75% enough to take on reds and make sandwiches? I don't know, maybe not. But then dark gets cloak of fear for added defense, and invuln gets invincibility for added defense... so.... I don't know if its true that not all scrappers can do this.

let us not forget: everyone loves sandwiches.

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On my Dark/Inv Scrapper I most assuredly can not walk away and make a sandwhich and expect to come back to anything other than a defeated character. Not saying that I don't expect to win normally but that will require interaction on my part.

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Maybe I make sammies faster than some, but I think I could make one before my friends old /Invuln died, as long as DP was on.

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Well, as said in another thread, look at the Punisher listing for your server, and use the Find team search to see what AT they are. 9 times out of ten they are tankers or controllers. The rest are often scrappers. At least, they are more often scrappers than blasters.

[/ QUOTE ] Unfortuantely, that doesn't answer the question. That stats are not about who does more on a team. Those are about damage dealers, irrespective of teams, IIRC. As far as pure damage output, it seems pretty obvious anyone who can herd and then lay down fire patch is going dominate. Honestly, unless those stats are taking into account those dynamics, using them as justification is not a straw man..it's a rice paper man.

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Well a straw man would be if I mischaracterized someone elses arguement. I'm just making an argument of my own here, which is perhaps a bad one. But isn't the fact that other people can do more damage than a blaster solo something that would suggest blasters damage or defense is too low? Or that tanker and controller damage is too high?

If teaming blaster are really the best, then they would get the best exp, and people would want to team with them. Hence they would appear on those boards. However, the fact that they don't appear suggest that they aren't contributing as much as they should.

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The fact that people can do more damage than a blasters over a given period of time can have nothing to do with who has more damaging attacks. It's about herding and regeneration i.e. health and endurance. Again, you are misapplying stats. Can't you see that if I take a fire tank into a hazard zone, I'm probably going to do mor damage than any other AT simply due to game mechanices? BE, this should glaringly obvious.

The Punisher listing is about who has "dealt" more damage as an individual, irrespective of being on a team or not (IIRC). Which also must consider that someone has set out to do so. Show me the DPS average chain of all blasters is greater than the DPS chain of scrappers ..over all levels...and you have a start. And I'm not talking about Electric versus Broadsword. I'm talking group average throughout the lifes span of the toon..

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If teaming blaster are really the best, then they would get the best exp, and people would want to team with them.

[/ QUOTE ] BE, this is like three or four invalid assumptions in one sentence. No one said teaming blasters the the best. If they were, it does not prove that they should get the best XP. No one said that they would want to team with them. None of these things follow from the fact that blasters are probably still outdamaging scrappers on teams.

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However, the fact that they don't appear suggest that they aren't contributing as much as they should.

[/ QUOTE ] It doesn't say that at all. These posts indicate that there is a small % of actual players who have demonstrated they are dissatisfied with some aspect of their blasters. That's it. The devs will tell us if blasters are doing as much as they should. That doesn't mean it will be as much as you want. Obviously many tankers feel they should be doing a lot more damage than they are.

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Well a straw man would be if I mischaracterized someone elses arguement.

[/ QUOTE ] Not really.

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I'm not sure I understand your argument here. Are you saying blasters are balanced because they do more damage than the other people on their team? I think so. (If I'm wrong, that would be commiting a straw man, not what ever you thought)

That isn't enough to make balance, especially considering that others solo can kill more stuff than blasters (hence hire ratingsin the Victor screen). Blasters would have to actually do enough more damage to be desirable in a team. That is, they would have to do enough damage to make other characters want to team with them. If they did do enough damage to make others team with them, one would assume that they would be in teams a lot. This could be wrong, but we are thinking of people as rational actors like in economics for this thought experiment.

Then assuming that blasters are often in team, it would seem to suggest that the damage of blasters as a team would be the damage of blasters on the Punisher list. If another AT did more damage than the grouped blaster (who would make up most of the highest damaging blasters, and would exist), then we could conclude that this would make blasters not truly the best at dealing damage, teamed or not.

If you think this makes assumptions, well yes it does. Here are some of them:

It assumes that all players wish to maximize exp by defeating the most foes possible.

It assumes that players will recognize when teaming creates a mutual advantage.

It assumes that blasters are balanced and do enough damage to be desireable in any team.

It also has the warrent of its claims that if a blaster doesn't do enough damage teamed to beat out some other AT solo than they aren't balanced.

If you disagree, show me how my assumptions are counter to fact, or how my conclusion doesn't follow from them. That is how logical debate works. If you know what a straw man is, you should understand that.

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balled groups of underlings no less - probably before they went psychic on us.

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Yeah, I was after the badge. I didn't care to become victor of Peregrin or Rikti Nemesis, I just did.

That wasn't how I got #1 Punisher though. That was blasting Wolves.