AzureSkyCiel
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Quote:Ah, but part of the point is that the Resistance does apparently know safe places outside of Praetoria, there are still, apparently people alive out there...Originally Posted by BenRGamer
The moments the Wardens leave they'd be Hamidon-Snacks.
There is wild, dangerous, ugly, yet beautiful, gentle, and better world beyond those Sonic Fences.
MEMBERS OF THE RESISTANCE! WHO IS TIRED OF THE ENDLESS WAR WHEN FRIEND OR FOE IS NEVER CLEAR?! WHO WISHES TO USE THIS SAME ENERGY WE PUT FORTH FIGHTING TO INSTEAD MAKE A BETTER LIFE FOR OURSELVES AND OUR CHILDREN?
THEN JOIN ME! BEYOND THE SONIC FENCES AS WE HAVE DONE FOR SO MANY OTHERS! COME WITH ME TO A NEW LAND!
Also, Golden girl is officially confirmed to really be Bandit Keith from the Yugioh Abridged Series. -
Quote:Ah, but I gave all the plot hooks needed for the new Paragon to need heroes to help them with their corruption and fend off Emperor cole's people!Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Oh, Definitely! I'd love that!
I'd especially love it if, with the removal of the Resistance, most of the evil stuff going on in Praetoria just -stopped- dead in it's tracks. Except the fighting/arrest/murder of the Syndicate criminals, of course.
No more Seers, no more Mother Mayhem, no more invasion of Primal Earth. All the evil just -stopped-.
Why? because the main and driving force of the oppressive attacks was removed when the Resistance went off to found their own nation in a different part of what was once "Amurrica!"
-Rachel-
That's the beauty of it! They would still be in America! Just another part of it! ;DQuote:Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The Wardens are Americans too - they have no reason to leave America - they'll stay and fight the fascists until they get their liberty back.
... IN AMERICA!Quote:Originally Posted by BenRGamer
Stop ignoring successful arguments against you and explain! E-X-P-L-A-I-N! That spells ex-plain! Where you actually... EXPLAIN your counter-arguments and not just shout 'AMERICA' over and over again! -
So... anyway though, who thinks the idea of the Wardens breaking off to form Paragon making things come full circle would be kickass?
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Quote:It was an insane god Emperor that the PEOPLE did vote in. Though whether this really is the case or not is another matter. Sure it could be a lie, but this is Shades of Grey. Sometimes when people are alone in the dark, they don't make the right choices because they think it is the right choice.Originally Posted by Golden Girl
No - American's shouldn't have to leave their own country just because an insane god-emperor is crushing them under his dictatorship - they should do exactly what they're doing - take up arms and fight to win back their liberty and depose the monster and his jackbooted thugs.
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Quote:Well of course there'd be good reason for Praetoria to invade a new Resistance founded city! They can't turn their back on their old Resistance comrades after having been through so much, so the Crusaders would end up there, and the Syndicate would "offer help" of getting supplies to help Paragon set up, supplies likely stolen from Praetoria, and if they're using the remains of the old city, just imagine Calvin Scott taking advantage of the kindness of his more idealistic Resistance recruits and developing HIS OWN FULL SCALE INVASION ARMY in Paragon behind the government's back.Originally Posted by Steampunkette
But somehow i doubt the Devs would write the Praetorians as invading the Resistance held city of Paragon without a reason (to uphold the Shades of Gray idea). So they'd probably have the Crusaders still attacking Praetoria using Paragon as a staging ground.
-Rachel-
Then there's the fact that Cole was granted his status as Emperor of MANKIND and thus the Earth by the people. So an act of secession like this could easily be written off as treason on it's own, by attempting to form an independent nation, it would be an act of war.
You're being WAY too literal.Quote:Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The hobo is there for a reason
The LAND is indeed America, sure. But the country is Praetoria. -
You know, I just thought of some weird speculation for down the road (lol, status quo is god though.)
A large chunk of the Wardens leave Praetoria and are chased by Cole's people into the far north. there, along the coastline they establish a new city that would be the pinnacle of their ideals of freedom, happiness for the people. It would be a Paradise peerless that even Praetoria would be but a dim glimmer against.
It would be... Paragon. -
Quote:Ah, but remember, we were in the North American Colonies in the first place for land and freedoms since they didn't exactly carve it out of England itself.Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Why should they? It's their country, and it's been taken away from them by an evil dictator.
When we decided we ddin't want to live under the British anymore, we didn't go to another country to avoid it - we took up arms and won our liberty on our own soil.
Praetoria is America, and instead of being the country that helped free the world from the danger of the Nazis, it's become a fascist state itself, that's crusing one world, and is about to launch an genocidal war on another - the Resistance are Americans, and they're fighting a second war of independence to liberate their country - only this time, it's against a home-grown oppressor rather than a foreign one.
And the thing is, by nature of Tyrant being an evil Dictator and being much older than members of the Resistance, it is HIS country.
Also, as I keep saying: Praetoria's America was different from our own. It was an America that thought it was a good idea to nuke ITSELF to hurt Hamidon when it had already been proven ineffective before. ("It didn't work the FIRST THREE TIMES what made you think it would work A THIRD TIME?!")
Trying to "take back" Praetoria when it's ruled by an invincible God Emperor is like trying stay on an island with an erupting volcano with the lava slide in the path of your home "just because you lived there all your life!"
And when one considers the facts stated above about the fact that even victory for the Resistance means a second civil war shortly thereafter... Really, if a Warden truly wants peace and freedom... it's time to leave home because it's not home anymore. -
I think for now, I will scoot Resistance into the wrong scales, if only because they should, in theory, be able to set up a safe colony outside of Praetoria since they could do so with the Marino family, but they don't, it might either be because as a whole, they're too stubborn to leave (definitely their fault), it never occurred to them (more and 'oops' moment), or it could be possible that Calvin Scott is doing everything in his power to prevent the Resistance Wardens from realizing this and thus leave him missing a good chunk of his staff and/or executes those that dare suggest or attempt it. Depending on if this is open or not, it would create a painful hypocrisy on part of the Resistance to try to "liberate" people from one tyrant and into another. I'd bring up Calvin deserves blame but its established he's every bit the monster Cole is.
Though the final possibility with this is that they or others have tried it in the past only for Cole to crush such an audacious secession from the established state. Plus, in theory, since he is the Emperor of mankind, that would indeed mean attempts to form a sovereign state of one's own without consent or permission from the Government would be treason and treated as such. (And we know how the state deals with treason...) -
Quote:it was kind of a personal conclusion based on the fact that after World War II in real life, part of the condition for Japan's surrender involved a reduction of their military that expired about... I think it might have been ten or so years ago. So I figured something similar would come about on the grounds of heroic metahumans who are known to do travelling in their line of work, and ultimately last much longer compared to military treaties.Originally Posted by Pedro Schwartz
Where did you get that info on Japan X Rikti?
so, if such a treaty lasted long enough, it would mean the Rikti would bend Japan over and it would be Nagasaki and/or Hiroshima all over again, only stretched out over eight months. And it is covered in the background info that Tokyo and I think Kyoto or Osaka were attacked as well. The Rikti invasion was global, Paragon just was a big focus due to the high concentration of metahumans, but that doesn't mean other places didn't suffer just from the little they had to deal with. -
So, I thought I'd start a thread to ask folks about what some of their takes on the CoX fluff as well as discuss it, maybe even help give ideas to some folks about how they view the world around them in Paragon, Praetoria, Cimerora, the Shard, or the Isles and well beyond.
For example, I've lately come to think of the Paragon Protector's tier nine armor activations as their genetic programming basically "overclocking" or "overdrive" to give it an RP flavor (since saying "he/she activated their moment of glory!" sounds a bit silly) as a logical conclusion that a Paragon Protector is genetically programmed to burn itself out either to defeat an opponent or stall them, and at the same time keep the secrets of Crey safe.
Another big one is from playing my archery/energy blaster who's supposed to be an Anime Magical Girl, but real.
In this case, for her I've always played Modern Japan in the CoX universe as basically like a live action, multi-genre anime (magical catgirls everwhere!) with some very PAINFUL deconstructions and limitations. (...Most of them in graves)
Such as one of her traumas was watching a six year old newbie magical girl get crushed to death by a careless mecha pilot, Mecha are highly regulated and reserved only for the most dire situations due to the possible damage and life cost of having one fight, the legal number of registered meta-humans was reduced similar to the WWII Japanese Demilitarization treaties. (which had the consequence of Japan taking a nasty beating during the Rikti war since any one with powers that rose to the challenge... Were all horribly inexperienced and undertrained)
Of course, when I play her like this, anyone else with a character from Japan will wonder what she's been smoking.
So, what are your own personal views on mechanics, settings, and fluff? -
I find it amusing that they refer to Praetor Tilman as "Psycho-legs" over her... MASSIVE Psychic Powers.
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Quote:I'll be honest, I've played the morality mission three times, read all the text... And am still confused just what the hell happened. Even after your explanation. So what you're saying is that silent blade was the one who killed my double and that's why he suddenly vanishes, and you're saying that supposedly, Silent blade, who's *** I kicked pretty thoroughly was always STRONGER THAN MY CHARACTER AND WAS JUST HOLDING BACK?Originally Posted by je_saist
If you think that is what happens, you need to replay the mission and understand the context of the actions that occur. That statement is from somebody that either read about the mission, and didn't actually play the mission; or from somebody who played through the mission, but didn't actually bother reading either the NPC chat, the mission text, or the mission clues.
The latter statement's highly unacceptable when she's a villain who's been beaten down to the ground by mine and countless other's toons previously in various scenarios. -
Sooo worth the wait.
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So, out of curiosity, since this thread seems to be mostly derailed, does that mean we're all at a consensus that Ninja MM pets need some KB protection and raised defense values?
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This might already have been addressed, but the reason the guy's name is "Kazeguro" for "Blackwind" (Though more literally "Windblack") is because of a Japanese writing/speech nuance where in some cases, a portmanteau of two words with similar syllables will be altered to create a slight repetitious sound.
Such as the weapon Kusasari no Gama, even though scythe is actually "kama" -
Quote:Well yes, it does seem a bit odd, but the idea would more stem, conceptually from the idea of the ninja actually working together as a unit. Though I suppose such a thing technically would work better with Merc soldiers.Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Personally, I wish they got extra defensive passives as they level up. I experimented with something like this on my Bugs Mastermind and have so far not had anyone complain about (or even mention) them. What I mean to say is, they have their Resistances power, but then they get another Resistances power with their first upgrade and another again with their second. It could work, can't it?
The problem I have with Phalanx Phighting, and which is why I'm suggesting alternatives, is the very concept. Phalanx Phighting works on the principle of a Phalanx, where multiple characters would form a wall of shields and thus stop most incoming damage. How do we explain ninja becoming harder to hit when they huddle together? Wouldn't the law of conservation of ninjitsu work against that? Furthermore, wouldn't a large group of people be easier to hit just by virtue of presenting a larger target area?
And mechanically, a function which requires henchmen to stay together seems like a terrible example of herding cats. Think it's bad trying to keep actual people together? It's practically impossible the way ninja run all over the place. I guess it would work on EBs and up, where the ninja can be forced to surround the enemy and keep in range of each other, but for the most part, they just scatter too much. Half your Genin will, on average, stay behind to throw shuriken. I guess you could make the range really big, but then you're just giving them a flat buff.
And I kept mentioning the Conservation of Ninjutsu law.
but in the end, the Phalanx fighting thing was only one of many suggestions. Yet another was simply to boost Genin and Oni base defenses to that 13.9% (I think that's the amount a scrapper/stalker would get out of SR or nin toggles) and Jounin to 18.5%m but again, its one of many ideas and possibilities.
And ultimately only addresses one of so many problems. -
Quote:I disagree, I think you can make things normal but still interesting. You just have to realize that the labyrinthine nature needs to come from the villains who are raiding/held up in a place and not it's inherent design.Originally Posted by MacOberon
Oh and yeah, offices look like they have been designed by a Rikti on crack, but I like that. Can you imagine how boring it'd be if all maps were predictably regular? Ew.
For example, consider some of the examples I gave for different means of climbing the floors of a building instead of just the standard elevator alone earlier in this thread:
In this effect, you gain a layer of complexity by finding different means to climb levels, the idea being that when you start going up one way, the badguys will do something to halt your progress going up further.Quote:Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
... Things could be used like large air ducts, windows to the fire escape, stairwells, maintenance, and even scaling up ladders in empty elevator shafts.
Then you could throw in destroyable (or in rare cases, indestructible barricades) either with portable force/repulsion field generators from the black market, desks, chairs, cubicle walls, and ripped off doors piled up and nailed together in crude barriers, and even portable defensive turrets to deter people from going a certain path.
Now while not adding complexity to a map's navigation I did post an idea to make generic maps like warehouses and so forth have a bit more flavor.
With all of these things, I think it would be possible to make realistic office buildings seem like quite a setting worthy of an epic battle. -
Quote:Well, modifiers might make the numbers much lower, on a scrapper you only get 2.25% defense bonus to positional defenses with PF, though I know even NPC minions actually have a slightly higher modifier for defense than PC scrapper (weird, I know) and assuming the MM henchmen use minion, lieutenant, and boss modifiers for each tier pet... The numbers shouldn't be unreasonable at the cap. Assuming even tank numbers on a genin plus their inherent defense it would come out to about 21.97% defense, which an SR player like myself (I have 4 characters that use SR) can tell you that's usually about the point where things get a lot less painfulOriginally Posted by beyeajus
I understand. So PF does seem pretty good for that instead, and the stacking with theother Genin would be nice, like enforcers. It's possible to make a dulled down, not so Brute/Tank/scrapperish, isn't there? Like a mini version?
And part of what would make this different from enforcers is that this would probably still not be slottable into their enhancements, and the range would be much shorter -
Quote:Not quite... (Warning: long winded and pompous post is long winded and pompous. Also, I do not intend any hostility, disrespect, or to deride Beyeajus' post in anyway)Originally Posted by beyeajus
that IS pretty cool. what about dodge from /SR? but with some ranged def too. Or better yet, hightened senses from /WP as a passive. either of those would improve their defense a lot.
Dodge, Agile, and Lucky are the three SR passives that also boost resistance marginally as HP drops below 60%. However these are not exactly good replacements for the ninjas defenses, though might be note worthy additions, but the problem is, if they replaced what was already there, we'd be in basically the same, single digit positional defense numbers. But on a plus side, they'd have decent defense debuff resistance.
Heightened Senses would, also bring Defense Debuff resistance as well as +perception on their own, but not much else. Between Environmental (typed) defense and Positional defense, it's the one with the highest number that negates the incoming damage. So in the end, either the ninja would give up their positional defenses for something that would put them a little above where they are now, or added, simply give not much visible benefit other than defense debuff resistance.
This is why I suggested Phalanx Fighting from shields. As a passive, they wouldn't need the shield graphic, it would mean the individual ninja would not exactly benefit, but if he has two buddies fighting close with him, he would gain +15% defense to his positional defenses on top of his inherent defenses. So technically, it brings a sense of teamwork to the ninjas and reward their melee heavy styles... It would also, again, ironically subvert the Conversational Law Ninjutsu. (Which states that something's badassery and competence/effectiveness is inversely proportional to it's numbers) -
One old idea had for buff ninja survivability was basically to give them phalanx fighting from shield.
This would have been very ironic since it would technically subvert the Law of Ninjutsu Conservation, but hey, it seems cool, right?
But since ninja are melee oriented, that means most of them will be giving eachother max defense buffs for this. -
Quote:Genin defense at level fifty: 6.97% to all positional with no defense debuff resistance.Originally Posted by Tenzhi
And it definitely sounds like Ninjas are getting gypped on defense.
Jounin defense at level fifty: 13.94% to all positional with no defense debuff resistance.
Gypped does not even begin to cover it. This also assumes that they're getting this at the MM's level fifty, and not at the lower level cap that the first two minion pet tiers have. (48 for first tier and 49 for second) -
Quote:Well, to another extent, I think some ninja may have been under actual employ of various shogun and even emperor. But whether they could be considered public even by the extent of a Shogun bragging/warning they might have them (as an intimidation/deterrent) in their arsenal or not is another matter entirely.Originally Posted by SenseiBlur
Day jobs do not = role in pubic society. People did not look at a guy (who was secretly an assassin/ninja) and be able to tell "Oh, this guy is a ninja, we should kill him".
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Quote:Do the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few?Originally Posted by Steampunkette
And Ben has it right!
Neither side is -truly- heroic. One side wants everyone to obey all the laws and follow all the rules or die. The other wants everyone to make their own rules, or die.
It's a Fail/Fail situation! The only possible mitigating factors are the individual's own actions. Wardens cause wide-spread mayhem and chaos, Loyalists try to halt wide-spread mayhem and chaos by killing a smaller amount of people.
-Rachel-
Although on a slightly more interesting note: why do the Resistance stick around? They could get the Marinos out of Praetoria and to some place apparently safe, why not move themselves out and put their efforts towards building a new and different society, independent and apathetic to on goings of Praetoria beyond if a citizen there wishes to move to another place.
Though I do see a few problems with this: For anyone who's played Bioshock, I could easily imagine the Syndicate stepping in and basically becoming like Atlas to the Resistance's Andrew Ryan. Calvin Scott WOULD NOT ACCEPT THIS, he wants his wife back, is the present leader of the Resisance, and would NEVER accept half or more of the Resistance to give up the revolution or Praetoria for a new land of their own ideals of freedom. The final obstacle would be that everyone might just accept Cole finding such a scenarion equally unacceptable and bringing out the Imperial Defense Force to invade the Resistance City and subdue it, since Cole is supposed to be the Emperor of all mankind, it might stand to reason attempts to secede from his rule would be considered a crime, regardless of how much or little it affects his own power and empire. -
Quote:Well, the problem is more that they're first ranged attack requires the first upgrade, which is not such a big deal. But as a random thought about the redraw, on possibility could be to give them the Syndicate Sword Master's ranged katana attack. It strays a bit from the ninja theme, but would remove the redraw issue, and honestly, when you get right down to it, ninja tend to be just as much about surprise as stealth, and what's more surprising that showing someone that they're not safe from your sword even a hundred feet away.Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
The Jounin does have a ranged attack. Unfortunately, it puts his weapon away, screwing his AI up an causing him to get stuck just cycling that crossbow attack. Bad move on the developers' part, because invariably when I hit him with Smokeflash, he uses that damn crossbow. You know, instead of Rising Dragon. Jerk!
Well, I would more mean the arm and shin guards, this is partly spoken from having made a few "ninja" costumes myself which I felt came out pretty nicely. And since they're already dressed in smoke grey and such, why not have some armor on a part of your body you might block with?Quote:Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
As far as costumes go, I would be very much against using Samurai armour on any of the ninja with the possible exception of the Oni. Ninja are not samurai, and they should rely mostly on dodging attacks, not on heavy armour. I will, however, agree with improving them with the Ninja pack items, especially their face masks. They can stand to be so, so much better.
But I see your point. -
Quote:And funny enough, all the different servers are called: "Shards" as though referencing in-game that the different servers are canon and just alternate shards of the same universe.Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
To my mind, the problem arises from viewing the multiverse as a linear structure, where all alternate Earths exist in a single instance, i.e. there is only one Primal Earth and anything that's not in this particular universe is not Primal Earth.
By contrast, describing the multiverse as a two-dimensional structure (or three-, four- and on multi-dimensional structure) allows us to make "variants within variants," as it were. We don't have just one Primal Earth universe, we have an infinite number of Primal Earth universes, each practically identical and different only in trivial ways, such as some guy's name being Bobby instead or Robert or house cats having green fur.
Though personally I like the idea that Praet Infernal is actually Prime Infernal's lost friend since that kind of ties up and opens up a new dimension of a story.