Aura_Familia

Originally Posted by Iannis

I17 is probably going to be retcons to CoH story arcs about Praetorian Earth to clean up the in-game continuity from being Evil Goatee Paragon (where all the major superheroes are evil) to Emperor Cole, Beloved Tyrant of Paragon (hey Mother Mayhem isn't slicing people's brains up and turning them psychotic for laughs anymore. And Dominatrix just...yeah, isn't doing that anymore either)

And probably also getting some Praetorian story content in CoV. Maybe Malaise could show up to be the Rogue Hero--he bounces between being Psyche's brainwashed pet hero project and the sociopath villain he is depending on the flip of a coin, after all. He could be trying to sell some paintings to liven up Grandville Tower.

And an Empire vs Rebellion pvp zone you can go to without buying GR.

That would be enough to be a typical issue.

Originally Posted by InfamousBrad

Actually, no, that isn't my original argument, by any stretch of the imagination. In no sense whatsoever did I either say or even imply that you have to fight back (case #1) or that you have to attack a target you could two-shot or maybe three-shot kill from outside their attack range (case #2). What I asked, precisely and in as many words, was, "why wouldn't you?" And more precisely, what do you gain from running away to the base and exiting the zone that you wouldn't gain more quickly and more efficiently by just fighting them, win or lose?

And all that anybody can tell me that they gain when they do this is "I didn't PvP." OK. That's what, not why. Why is that so important? Seven humanoid mobs on the screen, one of which has a player behind the controls; why is it such an unimaginably awful thing that you'd give up on getting the Shivan, give up on whatever other badge you were there for, flee the zone altogether, rather than tab over to them and push a few buttons? "I don't want to." OK, I understood that as soon as they fled the zone. I didn't ask if they wanted to or not, I asked why not? "Because it's not fun" is an unresponsive answer; it doesn't explain what part of it is unfun or non-fun or anti-fun. By superspeeding away or stealthing up and flying away you've already decided not to have fun, you've given up for now on the fun you came to the zone to get. I'm asking about your plan B after your plan A (do whatever without seeing another player) has fallen through. Why is running away less unfun than either winning or losing?

Some people have answered with things that they're actually afraid would happen, thank you. But even those left me scratching my head. Someone was afraid that they might hit the other person a few times and the person they hit would leave. Didn't you want them to leave, in the first place? Someone else was afraid that if they turned and fought, three or six or however many other people would materialize out of nowhere and fight them. If they were going to do that, wouldn't they have done that at the start of the fight, aren't you worrying about something that obviously isn't going to happen? Someone else was worried that they'd turn out to suck at PvP and lose, but they didn't explain why getting sent to the hospital that way is more painful or unpleasant or humiliating than going to (or by) the hospital the longer, slower way of running away.

Which leaves it at "if I don't run away, I might fight another player, and that would be bad." And I remain as baffled as I ever was as to why that's so intolerable, so awful, that people would give up on what they obviously already wanted to do rather than risk it. *shrug* If I don't get an answer I can understand soon, I'll drop it and go back to thinking of it as one of life's mysteries.

Originally Posted by Ironblade

They signed up to have FUN. If they fall into the group that does not find PvP to be fun, why would they have even the SLIGHTEST motivation to stay around and fight?

Originally Posted by Another_Fan

Its something that sounds good but in practice it gets hairy. To make it work you need an activity with a definite start and definite finish, then you need two people that can organize two teams relatively quickly so that it actually happens. The teams then need to be not completely lopsided. Fail at any of the above the whole thing goes down the tubes.

Originally Posted by Eva Destruction

And no, I am by no means suggesting that PvP stuff should be untradeable like in WoW. I think that being able to accumulate credit toward an IO that currently sells for hundreds of millions, if not billions, of inf would be enough of an incentive for enough people to make the system worthwhile.

Originally Posted by Blue Rabbit

I just don't like PvP and I won't do it. Ever.

Originally Posted by InfamousBrad

Ga-a-a-a-a-ahhhhchhh. That's the one thing I'll never do. Dueling in open PvP zones offends me the same way that the recipe/badge farmers taking oh-so-polite turns killing each other without fighting back do. They're both tremendously elaborate and badly improvised attempts to avoid actually playing the game the way it was designed. It's like playing chess against somebody but demanding that we prohibit castling and that we eliminate the mad queens rule (the rule that upgraded the queen from a spare king to the most powerful piece on the board) because "queens are stupidly overpowered, lol."

If I were looking for duels, I'd be hanging out in Pocket D by the Arena terminals. (And if PvP gave XP, like it did in WAR, I might well be doing just that. But that's an argument for another day.) I have nothing inherently against dueling. But that's not what Bloody Bay and Siren's Call and Warburg and Recluse's Victory are for.

- - - - -

From what people are saying here, I'm getting the sense that I've stumbled upon the cure for the common gank: show no fear. Don't try to hide, and if you see someone, attack them. Since MMO players, by huge margins, are terrified of uncertainty and unpredictability and are unwilling to risk the possibility of the worst, doing so makes you just like that video I've seen on the Internet of a cat attacking and chasing off a bear. The bear knows that the cat is no harder to catch than a fish, and that it could bite the cat in half in one bite, but it runs away anyway, because it's thinking "the cat obviously thinks it could win this fight; it must know something I don't know"?

The consequences of losing a fight in this game are so trivial that I can't imagine fearing it. Even if I was jumped by surprise by a stalker (and it's happened) and I feared that if I stood and fought them that six more stalkers would materialize out of the woodwork (why? if there were six more stalkers, why wouldn't they all attack at once?), so what? What's it hurt if I fight back and lose?

You suck at PvP? Amazing coincidence; I'm not all that great at it, either. But some day I may suck less, because I'm not afraid to fight, lose, and send the person a tell afterwards saying, "good fight, I have no idea how you just did that, what did you DO to me?" Everything I know about PvP in any game I've played I've learned that way; half of 'em are happy to boast.

And I'm mildly autistic. You can't tell me you fear surprise more than I do. You can't tell me that you fear uncertainty more than I do. You can't tell me that you fear disruption of your routine more than I do. But how can it count as a surprise that someone attacks you in a PvP zone? What's uncertain about it? How did you not know to plan it into your routine?

Look, I'm not trying to troll here; I really am baffled. What I'm seeing is inexplicable to me, it's unimaginable the lengths I see people go to to avoid playing a game that they pay $15 a month to play. OK, I know what somebody's going to say to that: I don't pay to play that particular part of the game. So, okay, a fight threatens to break out and you run back to the base, passing the hospital on your way to the helicopter out. What did you just save? If the absolute worst had happened, if I were secretly on a level 50 fully kitted out with PvP and purple IOs and backed up by a covert strike squad of 25 other hidden stalkers, what can we do to you? Send you to the Longbow base you were already fleeing to, only faster. Taking the slower, scenic route to the helicopter out is that preferable to you? Why?

Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake

also, in your first case, stalkers simply are not fun to fight, you either have to run around like a crack addict to avoid being assassin struck, or you stand still for a second and they hop on you, i'm still interested in how that ever became considered fun, but i digress. they probably figured you'd be gone soon, so just leave and come back when the zone has less potential to be annoying.

Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade

And yet, capture the flag is always popular in every setting. It's silly, and doesn't make a lot of sense, but I would love to have a capture the flag pvp game in CoX. Cross server, 15-man teams, no NPCs or very damn few of them, and just pound the snot out of each other over and over. I think I would never PvE again if City got something like this. And I don't think I'm alone.

Originally Posted by Forbin_Project

Oh here we go with this bull**** defense again. Trying to use farming to justify abusing exploits.

If the devs were truly against farming they would simply make the content non repeatable by making each mission timed, and not letting us reset the missions once started.

Originally Posted by Sigium

And I think we might have a new winner for the 'Snide Self-Importance' Award.



I read this far before I stopped and thought to myself;
"Why would a farmer care so much about what the devs-- Oohhhh, they stopped him from doing it!"
You see, I play a level 50 character. He's got a decent number of IOs, and the only ones I'm interested in are FAR out of my price range. What reason do I have for playing this toon if I'm not offering rewards?
Oh, that's right: FUN
You see, chum, back when you looked at the AE nerfs as 'OMG THE DEVS SCREWED UP!' I looked at it and said 'Alright, anyone who's using the system for not-exploitative play should have absolutely no problem'. Lo and behold, we have people clamoring that this is unfair, the devs dropped the ball, it's a PR nightmare, and SO much more that I don't care to get into.
You see, people don't ALWAYS play for the Reward. I've done the ITF about 7 times, haven't even attempted the MoITF, either. Why?

Because it's... Can ya' guess? FUN

Imagine that? People can have fun without gaining XP?

Originally Posted by Lemur Lad

Saying stuff in caps makes it more true? Sorry, no. Nosferatu is probably the toughest to solo, but he is by no means even close to the toughest ingame.

Originally Posted by Another_Fan

Cross server is a great idea, it would at least increase the apparent userbase and allow much more play. I don't think we would get it though as nothing in the game except the market and chat is cross server currently. Just at a guess they would need to set up a dedicated pvp server to make that work and then implement code to move your instance to it.

Originally Posted by Another_Fan

The attempt at anti spike code was an obvious attack on teaming, or at the very least an attack on coordination and communication. Recharge, plus defense, plus to hit all got nerfed.



Anyway as long as the buy in for PvPing is in the same category as good farm builds and GM soloing, PvP will be a dead letter in this game. I know people that have been playing this game for years and have never soloed an AV or a GM and dont particularly care for farming. I don't have hard numbers but it really wouldn't surprise if they were the overwhelming majority. For you it may be nothing to do this for most people its considerably more difficult.

Now if PvP were overwhelmingly fun to the point, that it became the prime attraction of the game, yes you would find more people willing to slog through the hoops to play. At that point the people at NcSoft would be asking themselves why they have barricades on the road to their big attraction.

Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus

No, not if you want to maximize your damage.

And not everyone does that. A lot of people just button mash like you posted I imagine.

A structured attack chain means you have worked out the recharge needed, adjusted the cast times to reflect the animations and chosen the most optimal sequence of attacks to form a seamless chain to inflict maximum damage.

If you really think there is no difference between the two, build a scrapper and solo a pylon twice, each time employing a different method.

Originally Posted by Eldorado

I still say the best way to farm purples is to play a toon you like, play it a LOT, and purples eventually drop. Playing a hyper-efficient farming toon you're not fond of just seems like another job or something.

Originally Posted by Catwhoorg

Congrats


For me today was the first time I spenta billion inf spend on a single IO....


Its not so long I was cheering that first billion on a character. Now a billion doesn't feel like much.

Originally Posted by Bright Shadow

Originally Posted by Another_Fan

No what I was suggesting was at the start of the game everyone gets to start with the same material. I also pointed out that if you force people to play another game just to play the game they may or may not want to and many less will participate.

If you think there is no skill involved making a build, and playing it doesn't involve any skill then you are correct, starting everyone at even in material would be like coin flipping.

Originally Posted by Bright Shadow