Wyntol

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adding a single defender will do more.

adding 8 defenders will do less.

so instead of wanting 8 defenders on a team they may want a scrapper, blaster, etc.

Right now a team of 8 controllers/defenders is the best. So right now we have the situation you described, but for all of the other AT's except controller/defender. Who wants a 3rd tanker? Or a 3rd scrapper?

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Maybe I read the OP incorrectly. But, he isn't describing making defender buffs not stack with other defender buffs. He wants a defenders buff to do less and less, the larger the group gets. I don't like that idea, there we be a point where people decide the buffs are too weak, and its better just to grab some healz. We'd then have what many here having been trying to turn this game into since they left Everquest years ago. A system where to only way to play is tank or tanks get aggro, and toss big heals at them.

It would be couterproductive, a 2 man team really doesn't need huge buffs and heals to survive the mission load out. The op's example would make the defenders buffs in a 2 man team, be at its most powerfull. Now when a full team is joined, where you are facing dozens of minions, 3 bosses a battle, the defenders powers would be at their weakest.

Now if he had suggested that the first Accelerate Metabolism(for example) act as it now now, but each successive AM stacked would do less and less, I could be on board for that.

Lastly, why does it bother people that a pre-made group of all defenders is doing stuff? This is a very forgiving game, almost any mix of AT's can work out a strat, some very unconventional, to get things done without other AT's. This is a plus for CoH and what makes it a good game, not a flaw.

I like that fact that creating a fun mission group is all about my friends list and who is fun to spend a few hours playing with. I don't want bulding a group to break down to "fek can't find a tank, I'm logging". I believe that is what you want, a game system changed to include gimmicks or tricks that REQUIRE a representative of each AT be present to get anything meaningfull done. I don't want that game. Every other MMO already does that. Requiring tank plus healer, then everyone else is mostly replaceable or interchangeable. CoH done well in breaking the mold and there being many ways to "tank" a spawn. Traditional tank, heal, scrapper plus buffs as tank, several debuff and buffs so even a squishy can tank with a little luck.

What you see as something that needs fixed, is what I see as a strength of CoH.

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Thank you Hertz! Your simple and colorful example made things very clear. I love Arcanaville, but my eyes tend to blur when reading her posts ... no offense, Arcanaville. If it's any consolation, the eye blurring is quickly followed up with, "I love Arcanaville because her numbers are always right, so I trust whatever premise she concludes with ..."

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I have to agree. Hertz's example was top-notch.

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Indeed it was. Bravo.

Sadly it just makes me even MORE conflicted. The idea sounds wonderful.. but I keep wondering if it is worth taking the blow to easy teaming. Right now.. options options options. Slap any team together and you do well(if nobody on the team is brain dead).

I'm afraid it would cause a domino effect. "Sorry.. we have enough of your kind of buff. If you join the mission becomes harder and the system makes it so you can't pull your own weight". It becomes harder to form a team. You have to look for more specific people when you could have just grabbed a handful of people and gone on your way. People get left out. These combined make more people solo out of frustration. Now that more people solo the teaming pool is even smaller. Teaming is even harder. More people solo out of frustration.

I guess it depends on how much additional help a buff of the same type helps. I'm willing to bet a lot that the developer idea of reasonable isn't nearly the same as that of the average Co* player. The kind that knows NOTHING of the system other than that second defender isn't adding a whole lot to the team. It isn't that this is a bad idea. It is that.. well.. people will muck up paradise. Edit: In a perfect world everybody automatically finds the one team that needs them and matching up is easy. Sadly this isn't a perfect world.

Who was it that first said "this is why we can't have nice things"?

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But see, that's the beauty, the next defender if they're the same kind of defender is adding exactly the same amount of mitigation as the last defender. If they are another type of defender, then they're adding some different kind of value which diversity will help.

I can't really see this as a problem because it is already worse than that. Only a few kinds of defenders stack well. Many get you to the cap with one or two. With multiplicative stacking, EVERYBODY you add to the team is helpful. Getting a diverse group is MORE helpful, but then, that's what we should want.

A super team should be a blend of ATs including at least one member each of the pentad. A super team shouldn't be 8 defenders or controllers.

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Where is the line drawn though? How weak do you want to make the buff/debuffs? I think it is a horrible idea, large groups will realize adding single defender does very little, instead of adding 3 defenders to get the same affect as pre-patch, they'll say the hell with the headache, add more blasters, scrappers or an empathy def or controller.

You are trying to describe this perfect world where a group would keep adding defenders to reach the old status quo. In reality the groups would realize it is much easier to just add an empathy def/controller, and take those other team slots and add more dps.

As for what the "perfect" group should be, a perfect group is a bunch of players I enjoy playing with. I don't want Everquest or WoW, where I must have this or that AT to get a mission team off the ground.

After reading this entire thread, I can't help but think many of you want a traditional MMO system where the fundamental parts of a team must be present or the team can't even leave the train.

MMO's are funny, people complain about wanting diversity, choices, tons of classes, powers, skills and spells. When it comes down to it, they are very uncomfortable when its given to them, and end up yearning for a tank healer system.

The last part wasn't directed specifically at who I quoted, just a general observation.

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L2 is horrible, biggest let down since SWG
Ya they have said alot of stuff but we dont KNOW anything.
They are trying to dangle this EAT infront of the lvl 50s to keep them playing and it just isnt working, why do all the carebears complaing about PVP when it is going to be optional, just because you wont like it doesnt mean you have to cry about it so we cant enjoy something other then killing the same mobs over and over and over

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What are you babbling about? No one said anything positive or negative about pvp. CoV won't be soon, they said they would try to get arenas into the game so they can have a way for people to pvp and see what needs tweaked for CoV balance.

It looks to me like you are being antagonistic and fishing for any reason to say the word carebear in some attemp to legitimize yourself as a hard core l33t pvp'er.

From your other posts extremely attacking others playstyle, anti-social behavior, posts in this thread I think maybe you need an intervention. It appears you aren't getting anything healthy at all out of a social game. The only time you even refer to those who play around you is in the terms of wishing you could "in-game kill them" or to insult how they choose to play. If you are just a troll baiting for responses, that just reiforces what I said above.