Aeonian

I went for storyline. The background and current story content available has some really great stuff in it. That said, we need more. I feel that updates should be at least once per quarter and should always advance the storylines. More contacts COV-side and unlockables COH-side.

I'm interested that PvP has such a high percentage of the vote compared to what I see in the in-game population. This can be explained by the fact that to be viable in PvP usually means reading guides and therefore the forum. I only wish more of the game population used the forums.

I'd also like to be able to vote for PvP too, but I can't. Until the majority of PvE builds are capable of winning some PvP fights the bar is set too high for entry.

You could change this by making the PvE mobs fight more like PvP players and encouraging 'PvP' power choices. Alternatively, the PvP experience needs to change such that the 'arms race' of FOTMs can be reduced. Good luck with that one.

[ QUOTE ]
Accuracy of Wikipedia

[/ QUOTE ]

I see your quote and raise you - Nature mag cooked Wikipedia study

[ QUOTE ]
Back on topic, I have yet to see PROOF that Stalkers are overpowered gods that can't be destroyed and kill without retaliation. As this has also not been my experience IN PvP, I'm left with no change, after this whole thread, that stalkers need a swift hit to the head with the nerf bat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt we, as players, will ever be able to provide compelling proof either way. I'm coming to the conclusion that the dev's will make their judgements about PvP balance and someone somewhere will be vocally unhappy.

I will say that I find it unlikely, given the newness of CoV and zone based PvP, that everything is balanced at this time.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I maintain that there are numerous counters to stalkers, built into the AT and into the game, IR goggles, travel powers, etc..

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, that's a grand idea. Let me run to Siren's call every half hour to spend 10k inf. to buy goggles just so I dont repeatidly one shotted by a solo stalker all night in WB. That give me GREAT motivation to pvp. /sarcasim off.

The truth is all these stalkers are LOVING their new trump power, come out of nowhere, kill someone instantly, pissing ppl off endlessly. It quenches that sadistic side in all of them. But the party has to end.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thing is, the party could end with no nerfs to Stalkers required. Once Heroes adopt +perception as common practice Stalkers hide ability will be useless. Of course, that means that only those who tailor their builds specifically for this kind of PvP can enter the zones. That seems to be what some people want here. I'd have thought that the under-population of the Arena would have been a good lesson...

Once Heroes regularly hit the +perception cap nerfs will start happening, it's just a matter of time. I'd rather see the faulty mechanism of stealth and perception addressed.

You make some interesting ponts there but I think I'll counter based on what you say here.

[ QUOTE ]
Not to get off on a social rant, but more and more people are of the mind of.."I want it and I want it now"..It applies distinctly here in the game. People don't want to make the sacrafices to attain what ever goal they have.

[/ QUOTE ]

If that's true, and I think that may be so, who is going to PvP?
Since more and more people are unwilling to make the sacrifices needed it seems to me that you'll end up with a small self-selecting PvP population. These players are all prepared to do whatever they need to in PvP.

Players who play Heroes in this scenario will always aim for the perception cap, making Stalkers primary function useless.

If that doesn't happen the alternative is that there will be no Heroes to fight. Everyone who is interested in PvP will play a Stalker.

(I think this may be my first proper DOOOM! post; I really hope this is not what happens but I'm cynical when it comes to human nature.)

Thank goodness for that! I tried a /DA once and I started to get a migraine from the noise. No, i'm not kidding. It looks like such an interesting set too...

[ QUOTE ]
There are so many tactics to nullify and negate stalkers uber hide/AS ability, but everyone wants an easy fix

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's the problem. Since there are so many tactics that negate Stalkers, do you expect heroes who PvP to use them? Of course you do, they'd be dumb not to.

What does that do to Stalkers? It makes their stealth useless. This is a problem for Stalkers long term as it makes an AT defining ability worthless and therefore the AT underpowered in PvP.

The problem isn't 'whiners' that try to nerf the Stalker, the problem is that without a fair stealth system PvP is unbalanced and results in an arms race where builds are constantly thrown on the scrapheap as powers are 'adjusted'.

[ QUOTE ]
Three, everyone needs to remember the absolute cap on Stealth is lower than the absolute cap on Perception if the players are even level. This means that a TEAM using non-Temp powers but with a good overlap of other powers will be able to see a Stalker before that Stalker gets into Melee Range. Additionally, while Tactics is a Toggle power which can be left on indefinitely for a +Perception boost, Grant Invisibility is a click buff which has a finite duration. So, a group of Stalkers + Support needs to stop and rebuff every few minutes to remain at the Stealth Cap, while a group using overlapped Tactics can remain on the move constantly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gotta admit this bit concerns me. There are a lot of ifs in that statement. If a team has the right builds, if those builds can stack their effectiveness and if that is sufficient to reach the absolute cap on perception they can see any Stalker. Although it works fine on paper, I'm not sure its a realistic option for most players.

If it is achievable and becomes common practice I can also forsee Stalkers complaining when Stealth becomes useless.

I guess you'll end up having to look at stats over a long period of time to work out if this is 'working as intended'.

I think you also need to consider that travel supression expires by the end of an AS and i'd like you to take a look at Pilcrow's suggestion to use awakens as a reaction to insta-kills. I'd link the thread but I don't know how to do that tidly yet. It's in the suggestions forum anyhoo.

[ QUOTE ]
So what would you prefer?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've said what i'd prefer earlier in this thread, and I quite like Pilcrow's suggestion. As I said before, I don't want nerfs to Stalkers, particularly that remove their primary function.

I don't like that you seem to be taking any suggestion that there is a problem as a call for extreme nerfs. I don't think it helps the discussion.

It's not the same argument. That argument is about Kheldians, this is about being unable to engage in PvP.

I've gone over the tools you've mentioned as being available and the reasons they are insufficent earlier in this thread. I'd suggest you read those parts again.

A very simple summary would be: The game at the moment will end up with only hardcore PvPers playing in the zones. This is not desirable as it is only fun for a very small group of people.

Incidentally, I'd have thought PvPers would also want more people to play so that they have new opponents and can engage in larger battles.

[ QUOTE ]

This is ALSO lacking logic. This is ALSO lacking rationality.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is ALSO misunderstanding or misrepresenting what has been said previously.

[ QUOTE ]
The day they code PvP so as to protect you from multiple attacks (be it trip mines, three different people sniping you, two different people AS'ing you) is the day that PvP becomes a massive joke. 'Wait I'm immune to walking blithely into another team's ambush? AWESOME!'

[/ QUOTE ]

The day that being reduced to 1HP instead of instant death is the same as being immune to walking into an ambush is the day that CoX becomes a massive joke too.

Seriously; suggesting that any change to the system means that PvP is instantly worthless is silly.

I don't like the idea of reducing players to 1HP rather than death. It doesn't seem to fix the problem but pretending that some players don't experience a problem and dismissing their views is pointless.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So for the sake of argument consider if my computer's specs should be seen as a one-shot. My computer's specs make it so that I experience slowdown that makes it possible to overwhelm me before I can react. By the concensus's definition that makes it a one-shot, but it clearly isn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, What bearing does this have on the topic at hand?

Your really talking about how your PC is old and aniquated and shop be upgraded???

[/ QUOTE ]

I was pointing out the futility of saying that a person should always get a chance to react.

[/ QUOTE ]

But in this scenario even if you do have a chance to react you've been killed by your computer being rubbish. It's not a 1-shot, your character had a chance. You, the player, did not take that chance. In this case, you didn't take the chance becuase your PC has serious issues or you need to adjust your graphics settings.

[ QUOTE ]
You stopped. Period. This Stalker was probably "stalking" you (it IS what they do) for a few minutes, and you gave them an opportunity.

[/ QUOTE ]

So presuming everyone learns to keep moving in PvP, Stalkers have to wait for the player to become bored of moving around or be distracted by RL? That doesn't seem like a great deal of fun.

Stalkers teaming up to do an alpha-strike is no worse than any other team combination alpha. The solution to being attacked by a team is to be in a team yourself. The problem is that Stalkers can attack players in a team, 1-shot, and get away without significant consequence or risk.

Individual players having to build for PvP so that they can avoid being ganked will lead to a small PvP population. Most people aren't going to respec just to avoid being killed by a Stalker in PvP. Even if we all learned to build correctly for PvP so that Stalkers are seen routinely, this doesn't fix the problem. All it would do is make playing a Stalker in PvP no fun.

If a player has a *chance* to respond to an AS or 1-shot they can avoid the feeling of being ganked. As for Quason's point; yes they are extreme examples. I'd look for a small chance to allow a reaction, maybe 1 second. Something that would allow popping a Respite might be a sufficient period of time.

In summary, being able to prevent a 1-shot by using build options or time-limited temp powers (IR or insps) does not solve the problem of 1-shotting. The problem is that players are unable to respond to an attack and are not engaging in PvP they are just being ganked.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It might be hard to find the right moment, but you're in relative safety the entire time.

[/ QUOTE ]

As opposed to a stealthed blaster flying way up high above the range of possible retaliation while he builds-up for a snipe followed up by the heaviest other attacks he has?

[/ QUOTE ]

This situation is also a problem if a 1-shot kill is possible because it is low risk for high reward. Provided the player sniped can react before the other attacks hit this is okay.

[ QUOTE ]
And WRT the "relative safety"... Every single hero I encountered in SC last night had IR goggles, and I'm fairly sure most of them could see us.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see it as a good thing that every single hero in a zone feels that they need to spend 10K influence every 30 minutes to be able to participate in PvP. I think this is being done at the moment to be competitive, being able to react to a Stalker attack should reduce the need for IR goggles and allow Stalkers to hide more easily.

What you're not getting is that I don't want to eliminate Stalkers getting the jump on me. I want them to be able to get the jump on everyone. I want there to be a risk for all parties engaging in PvP and that means there needs to be a chance to react to an otherwise insta-kill attack. Snipes or AS.

Making it so that all players who enter PvP learn that they must stack +perception will lead to either - Stalkers whose stealth is worthless or Heroes who cannot respond to being ganked. It will also lead to casual players not engaging in PvP.

As said previously, yellows are not a response to a Stalker attack. They are a precaution. Yellow insps at this time are roughly equivalent to the old discipline insp. Remember how popular they were?

I don't think players should be able to avoid AS entirely and in a reliable manner. This would cause Stalkers too many problems.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think I'm in almost total agreement with you except that I think players knowing that there is even a small chance to respond is key. A good Stalker against a poor player should be able to 'gank' about 100% of the time. Against an average player? 80-90%. I don't believe that to be the case at this time. Player response should also put the Stalker at risk; those able to remove themselves from combat straight after an AS should either: Not get a kill or be at risk of serious harm.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then I'd like the chance to be able to respond to being slept, held, confused, taunted, sniped, ice patched, critted, and debuffed.

Deal?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well Slows and debuffs aren't directly fatal but otherwise sure thing. A break free is a response to mez effects, other effects need a response too.

I think I'm in almost total agreement with you except that I think players knowing that there is even a small chance to respond is key. A good Stalker against a poor player should be able to 'gank' about 100% of the time. Against an average player? 80-90%. I don't believe that to be the case at this time. Player response should also put the Stalker at risk; those able to remove themselves from combat straight after an AS should either: Not get a kill or be at risk of serious harm.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry but that's not the Stalker's problem. The options are there for all builds - whether you choose to use them or not is up to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's just it. You're right it's not the Stalkers problem. The options aren't there for all builds though. What is the advice for players whose viable PvE builds don't contain these powers?

Stay out of PvP? Start a new character?

Doesn't that seem a bit harsh?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would say it is 2 or 4 attacks. Caltrops and Trip Mine are discreet powers and require multiple 'clicks' to activate. Since all the Trip Mines are the same power it can argued they are 1 attack but I don't see how Caltrops + another power is a 1-shot.

[/ QUOTE ]

So by your argument AS isn't a 1 shot either,becouse AS by it self wouldn't kill any AT,u have to BU+AS,that's 2 powers as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see what you mean. I would say that AS is 1 attack and is therefore a 1-shot. By that character the load of Trip Mines on their own would also be a 1-shot. Provided the player has a chance to react to either attack before being killed, I have no problem with this. However, as discussed earlier, the TP foe into the Trip Mines is the real problem as running into a bunch of Trip Mines is not a very clever thing to do.

[ QUOTE ]
Thing is, players DO have a chance to avoid an AS

Perception Abilities

[/ QUOTE ]These seem to be either build options, IR goggles or yellows. Of these only yellows are close to being a reaction to a Stalker attack, and of course they will only be activated after the Stalker has used their AS.
[ QUOTE ]
Interruptables

[/ QUOTE ]
It appears that these are also dependent on the characters AT and build. They are also not reactive. I believe that these AoE effects must be activated before the Stalker attacks. They are not a response to a Stalker but a precaution.

Although these do allow a player to prevent an AS I would consider that having to avoid these effects is not much fun for a Stalker, or for the player having to take these measures.

[ QUOTE ]
And nerfing every single one-shot possibility in the game will turn PvP into a tacticless button smashing snoozefest. Much akin to fighting an AV...Nope, must continue to disagree. I like that Stalkers exist and can one shot me. It'll keep me on my toes in PvP zones.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is why I think players need a chance to react to avoid a 1-shot. I don't think a tacticless button mash is fun either.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't build PvP believe it or not. However, I believe those who do build for PvP will always have an advantage over those who PvP casually and don't specifically build for it. You can't blame anybody for that. When you don't build for PvP and go for a more casual PvE build, you can't complain that you don't have the tools you want/need to do as well as others in PvP.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't have a big problem with this. I think all players (with a viable PvE build) should have a chance in PvP though. Even if it is a small chance. A repeatable 1-shot that a player cannot respond to will become a larger problem over time.

[ QUOTE ]
The same thing that happens when villains don't have the zone. You think I can see that Illusion Controller with Superior Invis? Or that Blaster running Stealth and Super Speed? I can't. The difference is, I don't have access to the IR goggles that the heroes do atm - yet you still don't see me complaining.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree this is not balanced PvP and I would hope the devs look at it.