Another_Fan
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Quote:Originally Posted by Sarrate
That would make the set progress through the levels smoother and be more flavorful, imo. As always, there is a catch: it would involve changing more numbers, which has a higher chance of using a 'wrong' number, and there is a higher chance people won't like it.
The real catch here is that people already like the flavor, its not for everyone but should it be ? If you walked into a restaurant and all there was on the menu was pickled herring there would be an argument about making changes to the menu, but that isn't our case. We have fiery melee, stone melee, electrical melee etc. The menu has many choices. -
Quote:Originally Posted by StratoNexus
If the devs want to keep defenders from blasting too much by keeping the damage low, I cannot fault their decision. I do not agree, but I have no real argument against it except that I think people would find it cooler if the blasts were more potent.
.
There is the simple argument that a defender shouldn't be less effective against a guy with a baseball bat, than a frightened store keeper with a saturday night special -
Quote:Have you heard the one about the Rabbi, and the lottery ticket ?Originally Posted by Arcanaville
JOKE
For something thats pretty darn accurate it manages to be singularly vague and open to interpretation. Kind of appropriate for the religious theme of the comedy.
Just to take from the BotZ thread the balance point became a problem when too many people were doing it ? (It still undefined and classes exhibiting the problem still unknown)
Or to go back to your joke, using you to convey this information is like God holding out his hand to the drowning man and yanking it back while making rude noises -
Quote:Originally Posted by Marsha_Mallow
You can thank all of those farmers for that one.Yes because there was a team of 8 exploit farmers using the Paragon studios offices as a farm map. The fire kins would rush, the art dept demanding that the animations like chicken pull be taken out, then the brutes and tanks would rush synapse and demand buffing allies be nerfed, finally the arch/ment blaster and the fire psi dom rushed castle demanding xp in ae and psi shockwave get nerfedQuote:Originally Posted by Disappearing Girl
You mean thank the exploiters. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Castle
That's what she said...and it was pretty darned accurate both in the original post and the followup. The truth is there isn't one balancing factor but dozens; many of which Arcanaville pointed out.
Then how bout some actual insight into where the game is going in terms of balance. Sorry my moral compass kind of died the last time I stopped a fight by turning the people doing the fighting into pincushions ? -
Quote:Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
I should think that the length of your answer would be a clear indicator of why the question wasn't answered fully in the QA. It's probably pretty much the answer a dev would give if they had been tasked to do a memo on it, but the fact that your name isn't red means someone gets to ding you, whereas if it had been Castle it would have 2 pages of kudos.Quote:Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
To the person who rep-commented "you dont need 7 paragraphs every response" this post actually has eleven, but don't worry, its no problem at all to do more than I need to. I go the extra mile just so you have a safe, anonymous, and harmless way to expend those negative rep points. You're welcome.
Amusing, not saying I agree with the neg rep, but 11 paragraphs to say what fun is ?
If Castle had of said it, it would have been official and we would have a guideline of what to expect. As it stands there is now an interpretation of an interpretation that given recent inclusions in the game, and nerfs to things in the game is not shared or well communicated amongst all the developers.
And if you refer back to that post in any discussion you can expect "Thats what she said" as the response. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Necrotron_RO
I used to run AE arcs pretty regularly. When the first XP nerf came in, I ran them a bit less. Since this last one, the last few times I tried to play a random arc that sounded interesting, the XP was next to nothing. Now, I don't even venture in the building.
The goal should be 'fair' rewards. In general, people play their characters to 'level up', or at least earn drops. There should simply be fair, non-exploitable rewards for the AE.
LOL, people in this game think anyone who plays well is an exploiter. Over in the beta feedback forum there was someone who thought speed running posi was an exploit. We have merit rewards determined by average times, and some wonks will actually try and say that corresponds to difficulty. As long as you have those kinds of attitudes anything can be an exploit, and the moral compass isnt spinning, it was cryogenically frozen then hit with a sledgehammer.
What there should be is consistency in the way these are done, and hopefully something a bit more based on the inherent difficulty. I'm not holding my breath for any of that though. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Ryuuk
I believe the point is that there won't be any/many redside farmers left(or much of anyone else for that matter). I'm certainly planning on moving.
Sorry I read that as preemptive player action. Agree on the abandoning redside. For the most part I already have. Between the unspecified bonus for having a pure alignment, the fact that it was obvious the devs weren't going to allow a defacto merger, and the new bit that your inf stays put, there just wasn't much point -
Quote:Originally Posted by Frosticus
Even if you could make a compelling case for SS being ok on scrappers it would open the door for an unaltered stone melee. If you look at the numbers stone melee would out dps, out burst and out mitigate every other scrapper primary. There is no way that would be ok.
Footstomp on high recharge is 76% mitigation by itself, don't think you could make an argument for that going over to scrappers as is to begin with -
Quote:Assuming by market crash you mean a situation where goods are not available at any price rather than the more traditional idea of a crash where the price of goods free falls. You would need to convince the redside farmers to stop selling the things they didn't want redside to accomplish this.Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
The most market tear question worthy of all is, would it be worth our effort to attempt to exploit the potential of crashing the BM to force a needed repair?
Thoughts? Comments? -
Archery and AR both excellent sets its a bit of mix arguing their performance at various levels, especially when you mix them with different secondaries.
In general AR, with a secondary that has buildup is a little more team friendly, As full auto will start applying damage almost immediately after you pull the trigger. Archery enjoys advantages in soloing due the the higher burst damage that Rain of Arrows can achieve with a secondary that has buildup.
If you are going Archery, you might want to consider either /Fire or /Mental, /Electric also looks like a contender but I have never tried that combo
The sets will let you do things like this
1. Stealth to center of group
2. Aim and Build up
3. Rain of Arrows as Pbaoe (Does not notify till after the pet starts)
4. Psychic Shockwave, or Fire Sword Circle
5. Combustion or Drain psyche.
If you go AR and want to use Ignite for boss killing be sure to get a set that has an immob, otherwise ignite is going to do very little to them (Exception robots which for some reason don't seem to bother to get out of the fire) -
Quote:Originally Posted by UberGuy
Yeah, I think that puts the last nail in that coffin. I'm sure there will be people who do it out of concept, or because they haven't (yet) figured out how to earn money faster, but at that duration I can't imagine anything you could cart from side to side that would be worth selling for either practiced marketeers, people who play at 50 a lot, or people who earn merits quickly*.
*I can still imagine taking something across because you just can't find it on the other side.
If you are taking a character from one side to the other, it is at least a way to get them startup funds on the other side.
arbitrageursQuote:Originally Posted by Smurphy
I blame high prices on arbitrators. -
Quote:It certainly does, but if the real answer is some like "We aren't entirely sure", their non answer is understandable.Originally Posted by Elric
The Q&A was useless.
"One of the original balance design goals was that a character should be roughly equivalent to 3 minions or a lieutenant and one minion. That no longer seems to be the goal. What is the design goal today with regard to balance in both PvE and PvP?"
That deserves more than a 7 word answer.
I'm sorry,but i can't help but be upset this whole thing. If you can't answer the questions that you know everyone has at the tip of their tongue, then please don't hold a Q&A. -
Quote:I hope you react as well over there, whenever someone points out your assumptions are at best questionable.Originally Posted by Warkupo
In short, I'm out. Have a good day, and good luck the next time you decide to argue with something that can do more than addition, I'm going back to the scrapper forum where people actually have intellectual conversation. I hope your next, inevitable, response to this is as humorous as all the others, for I will never know it's warm, fuzzy embrace.
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Quote:You mean aside from the fact that your chart omits all your movement ?Originally Posted by Warkupo
I find it all kinds of hilarious that you cite me as bending the truth when you are the master of it. You started your entire argument on a series of assumptions taken out of any context, and all your examples thus far have done entirely the same, where as I have methodically laid down examples, bent to the rules you have set, and then demonstrating potential of an AR/Dev when bent to my own. I even took time to point out the flaws in your own arguments and how you might improve your playstyle, such as needing to mitigate damage, or that the ice secondary lacks long-term potential, or that rain of fire goes at the start, or that you shouldn't begin your combo at 40 feet when you have long range attacks that benefit more from DoT.
Ignores the fact that trip mine will have to be placed on the leading edge of a spawn and wont be able to hit all of it. That the optimum positions to set up trip mine, fire flame thrower and full auto are three different places that you have to move between, and conveniently forgets that the fireblaster can and will do other things during those 3 seconds you have at the end there.
Now going back to an actual example from the game.
4 seconds after activating firebreath the fireblaster's minions are dead.Code:21:31:16 You activated the Fire Breath power. 21:31:20 You have defeated Legionarii
You know when I tell you I have slanted calculations in your favor you really should listen. That 4 second number is a perfect example. In the chain I used I unnecessarily crippled the fire blaster. The 2 seconds that aim and build up take can be done on the way to where the fireblaster is actually firing.
You will have to pardon me If I don't take your advice about how to mitigate damage. Especially seeing as you have managed not to notice rain of fire with its nice control and avoid abilities at the end of the chain you like to attack. -
Quote:And yet another strawman in a field of strawmen, in a city of strawmen.Originally Posted by Gilia
But, yeah, it's senseless trying to explain this. You consistently only respond to about 10% of what we've said even while we debunk everything you've said. It's clearly subjective to a point, but to say AR/Dev is somehow inviable or a non-option defies all sense, logic, and observation. I don't know how it could be spelled out any simpler than Warkupo already has.
First the word I used was "Underperfom", not "Inviable". Not the first time you have pulled that in this thread. Second the reason I only respond to about 10% is that even I get tired of highlighting the obvious.
Warkupo's example chain is the best example of this. Why not just have everyone get to the spawn when there is one minion barely alive. Just how much of a bias do you need to build into the comparison to say you are winning ?
You mean its a fragment of a post, that starts with giving the AR/Dev an 11 second starting advantage, and when you say similar slotting, you actually mean UNSLOTTED. So if you really wanted to be fair in that example you need to drop the AR/Devs damage further because he isn't hitting as much as the fire blaster who has more plus to hit from Aim and Buildup than the AR/Dev gets from targeting drone.Quote:Originally Posted by Warkupo
This is taken out of context, and is an example to show where you can go. It is not saying Fire cannot do something similiar with IO's either, but is a simple argument in AR's favor. Furthermore, it's but a snippet of an entire post which spends much of it's time comparing the sets assuming equivalent slotting, but I don't expect you to quote any of that because it might require you to think overmuch.
I noticed the unslotted numbers when I first read your post, but at the time it was unimportant, as that bit of skew was tiny in comparison having the other blaster start late. Why not just start at 15 seconds and claim the AR/Dev infinitely outperforms the fire blaster.
Oh the big bold letters are there so you might actual try and notice how much in error the things you are saying are.
Is that meant to mean something ? Seeing as we are talking about teams on task forces, +0,+1 is currently what is available.Quote:Also, +0 or +1 is a pathetic demonstration of your mad damage skillz.
Most of the chains we have been talking about are yours or Gilia's, The higher the con the worse you do. I suppose at some point perhaps with an AV, you could lay down 15+trip mines over 2 minutes manage to pull him into the field before they start exploding and then claim 6k points of damage over the period of a few seconds.Quote:But I can't really expect much for someone who doesn't even know how to play a set he's arguing for, as demonstrated by your backwards as hell chains and oblivious nature towards survival. I suppose fighting +0 enemies for so long would have distorted my ability to do anything significant as well, so I won't blame you too much in this regard.
If by comparable you mean significantly less in any given time, and to the point where even your examples have AR/Dev blasters running ahead to solo spawns before the rest of the team gets there, then yes. Most other people wouldn't consider that comparable.Quote:While I am not going to stop anyone from giving AR/Dev Build up or Aim, doing so would cause the set to become far more powerful than any other primary/secondary. As it is, Fire/Ice, when applied to a real world setting, is already doing fairly comparable damage to an AR/Dev while it has Build Up and Aim . Considering this is 'FIRE' whose secondary effect is 'moar damage', that's kind of pathetic.
As it stands you can easily pair devices with sets that have aim. Somehow ARCH/Dev while a nice combo, with a better crashless nuke than AR and AIM and 3 Aoes, is hardly overwhelming.
AR with a set that has buildup is also very nice but hardly overpowered. AR with AIM, comboed with a set that has buildup would probably be on a par with archery in terms of sheer burst AOE, nice but hardly overpowered
Devices with buildup, has exactly one power that gains significant gains from build up, and that is trip mine. Oddly enough Trip Mine + Buildup is 40 points more damage than a fully slotted Time bomb and considerably less than two trip mines placed next to each other.
Back to AR/DEV with build up
Now leaving out the fact that Trip Mine, is virtually impossible to get entire x8 spawns to hit unless you are in the center of them when planting it. The combination of Buildup, trip mine, Full auto ( How you are going to full auto an entire spawn when you have just placed a trip mine its center is left as a matter of speculation), would do about 1000 points of damage over 10 seconds or 100 DPS of AOE damage per second. That sounds large, but its about 20% than an ARC/Fire can allready do with Aim, build up, Rain of arrows + Fire Sword circle, you toss in a followup of combustion and its real nasty. If you would like mitigation with that damage, Aim, Buildup, Rain of arrows, Drain psyche,psychic shockwave, to have you regenerating at over 100 hp/sec, and doing more damage , over a larger area and in still less time.
So when you mean "far more powerful than any other primary/secondary" you actually mean slightly less than others that are already available.
Edit: And I forgot to mention that Archery has better range for its comparable AOEs -
Quote:I can certainly agree with that. As it is AR is a very good blaster set on its own certainly top tier. If you pair AR with a set with buildup, it has no problem reaching the magic numbers to kill enemies in short order. When you mix it with devices it just gets very iffy.Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
That's pretty much what this senseless arguing comes down to. It simply highlights the usefulness of damage boosting powers like Aim & Build-Up for a blaster. 90% of complaints regarding AR/Devices would go away if Devices was given some type of damage boosting power. You don't really hear any complaints from Fire/Dev, or Energy/Dev blasters, because they have Aim in their primaries, which AR lacks.
Provided the Fire blaster uses Aim and Build-up every time it is recharged, they will pull ahead on damage. If the Fire blaster isn't popping Aim/Build-up, their advantage evaporates.
Give it a few months and all the "OMG! AR/Devices sux!" threads will be replaced with "DP/Devices is teh suxxorz!" threads.
I already see the shiny wearing off DP. There just aren't nearly as many of them around as there were. -
Quote:VS yourOriginally Posted by Warkupo
You realize during your little example you never get hit, right? What level enemies are you fighting? Which defender is buffing you? How much defense does your build have? What are all your IO bonuses? Would you like to actually compare it to something other than our own imaginations?
Would it seriously kill you to post results that aren't utterly skewed?
That's what I thought.
What you didn't think other blasters could build for defense and recharge ?Quote:My own projected AR/Dev build (expensive), at the time of this writing, has 45.4% S/L, 42.47% Ranged, and 30.5% AOE, with 160% recharge, and all significant powers (as declared by myself). Just an example to show where you can *go* with AR/Dev.
But just to answer your questions, the spawn was I believe +0, or +1, and there was no one else involved. I would have to check how much inf a cim minion gives a level 50.
Seriously, I can only guess that both you and Gilia have never played any other blaster but an AR/Dev at this point. You both keep saying things that indicate a horrible ignorance of how anything but AR/Dev works. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Gilia
I'm not big on denouncing the DoT aspect on either, especially because to really notice the difference in play styles the difficulty is probably turned up and the mobs probably aren't going down in one attack chain.
However, I thought juxtaposing these two comments might illuminate why "you must put flamethrower first" was a silly comment. EVERYTHING in fire is a waste when put at the end of an attack chain if this is the case. I'd still put FT third cause I know how to (and love to) use knockback as mitigation. I'd still rather be the living Blaster than the one who kills almost everything fast then dies.
Nice analysis, Warkupo, even if it was slightly snarky. 8P
See the above post and read the log. Maybe try playing a blaster that has buildup and or aim. -
So the AR/Dev needs an eleven second head start ?
If that isn't a case of underperformance I can't imagine what would be.
Anyway lets compare
These are logs excerpts from my fire/fire blaster farming the wall
Code:The fireblaster is managing to wipe things out 6 seconds after getting there. and he is ready to move on to the next spawn before you have even finished your attack chain.21:31:16 You activated the Fire Breath power. 21:31:16 HIT Legionarii! Your Fire Breath power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 8.69. 21:31:16 HIT Legionarii! Your Fire Breath power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 87.77. 21:31:16 HIT Legionarii! Your Fire Breath power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 1.86. 21:31:16 HIT Legionarii! Your Fire Breath power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 9.02. 21:31:16 HIT Centurion! Your Fire Breath power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 78.79. 21:31:16 HIT Legionarii! Your Fire Breath power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 26.98. 21:31:16 HIT Legionarii! Your Fire Breath power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 66.34. 21:31:16 HIT Legionarii! Your Fire Breath power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 77.24. 21:31:16 Legionarii MISSES! Pilum power had a 6.19% chance to hit, but rolled a 65.47. 21:31:16 Legionarii MISSES! Pilum power had a 6.19% chance to hit, but rolled a 39.26. 21:31:16 Legionarii MISSES! Pilum power had a 6.19% chance to hit, but rolled a 92.04. 21:31:16 Legionarii MISSES! Pilum power had a 6.19% chance to hit, but rolled a 82.80. 21:31:16 Legionarii MISSES! Pilum power had a 6.19% chance to hit, but rolled a 84.81. 21:31:17 Centurion MISSES! Pilum power had a 7.12% chance to hit, but rolled a 21.63. 21:31:17 Readying Fire Ball. 21:31:18 Your Fire Breath burns Legionarii for 136.17 points of fire damage! 21:31:18 Your Fire Breath burns Legionarii for 136.17 points of fire damage! 21:31:18 Your Fire Breath burns Legionarii for 136.17 points of fire damage! 21:31:18 Your Fire Breath burns Centurion for 136.17 points of fire damage! 21:31:18 Your Fire Breath burns Legionarii for 136.17 points of fire damage! 21:31:18 Your Fire Breath burns Legionarii for 136.17 points of fire damage! 21:31:18 Your Fire Breath burns Legionarii for 136.17 points of fire damage! 21:31:18 Your Fire Breath burns Legionarii for 136.17 points of fire damage! 21:31:19 Legionarii MISSES! Pilum power had a 6.19% chance to hit, but rolled a 48.01. 21:31:19 Legionarii MISSES! Pilum power had a 6.19% chance to hit, but rolled a 48.45. 21:31:19 You activated the Fire Ball power. 21:31:19 HIT Legionarii! Your Fire Ball power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 56.71. 21:31:19 HIT Centurion! Your Fire Ball power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 40.88. 21:31:19 HIT Legionarii! Your Fire Ball power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 4.52. 21:31:19 HIT Legionarii! Your Fire Ball power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 4.39. 21:31:19 HIT Legionarii! Your Fire Ball power had a 95.00% chance to hit, you rolled a 64.73. 21:31:19 Your Fire Breath burns Legionarii for 136.17 points of fire damage! 21:31:19 Your Fire Breath burns Legionarii for 136.17 points of fire damage! 21:31:19 Your Fire Breath burns Legionarii for 136.17 points of fire damage! 21:31:19 Your Fire Breath burns Centurion for 136.17 points of fire damage! 21:31:19 Your Fire Breath burns Legionarii for 136.17 points of fire damage! 21:31:19 Your Fire Breath burns Legionarii for 136.17 points of fire damage! 21:31:19 Your Fire Breath burns Legionarii for 136.17 points of fire damage! 21:31:19 Your Fire Breath burns Legionarii for 136.17 points of fire damage! 21:31:20 Your Fire Ball explodes on Legionarii for 47.57 points of smashing damage! 21:31:20 Your Fire Ball explodes on Legionarii for 166.53 points of fire damage! 21:31:20 You have defeated Legionarii 21:31:20 You gain 2,362 influence. 21:31:20 The ether privateers gains 13 prestige. 21:31:20 Your Fire Ball explodes on Legionarii for 47.57 points of smashing damage! 21:31:20 Your Fire Ball explodes on Legionarii for 166.53 points of fire damage! 21:31:20 You have defeated Legionarii 21:31:20 You gain 2,362 influence. 21:31:20 The ether privateers gains 13 prestige. 21:31:20 You received Insight. 21:31:20 Your Fire Ball explodes on Centurion for 47.57 points of smashing damage! 21:31:20 Your Fire Ball explodes on Centurion for 166.53 points of fire damage! 21:31:20 Your Fire Ball explodes on Legionarii for 47.57 points of smashing damage! 21:31:20 Your Fire Ball explodes on Legionarii for 166.53 points of fire damage! 21:31:20 You have defeated Legionarii 21:31:20 You gain 2,362 influence. 21:31:20 The ether privateers gains 13 prestige. 21:31:20 Your Fire Ball explodes on Legionarii for 47.57 points of smashing damage! 21:31:20 Your Fire Ball explodes on Legionarii for 166.53 points of fire damage! 21:31:20 You have defeated Legionarii 21:31:20 You gain 2,362 influence. 21:31:20 The ether privateers gains 13 prestige. 21:31:20 Your Fire Breath burns Centurion for 136.17 points of fire damage! 21:31:20 Your Fire Breath burns Legionarii for 136.17 points of fire damage! 21:31:20 Your Fire Breath burns Legionarii for 136.17 points of fire damage! 21:31:20 Your Fire Breath burns Legionarii for 136.17 points of fire damage! 21:31:21 Your Fire Ball continues to burn for 35.68 points of fire damage!
In the team situation it gets even worse. -
Quote:When what they are cast on is already dead, they certainly do.Originally Posted by Gilia
Wow. I wasn't aware attacks did less damage if they were later in the chain rather than earlier.
You do recall we were talking about putting flame thrower a very long casting, very slow damage over time attack at the back of the chain.
You have no need to mitigate damage from the dead. Thats the great advantage of finishing up by killing things.Quote:Perhaps you should read what I wrote. You may be confusing what I said with somebody else. Either way, cleaning up the aggro was more relevant for the Fire/Ice combo which you laid out which gave no regard for mitigation. The AR/Dev may be able to facilitate way better alphas by leaving some of the mob behind, but that's not to say it's the AR/Dev's aggro. Besides you ended your chain with rain of fire lol... Making the team clean up your mess is clearly not a concern for your example.
Rain of fire, is just a bonus for the fire/ice. It gives him a nice way to start hitting anything left.
That chain was Warkupo's. Take it up with him if you feel he can't build real world chains and has no Idea of how to play them.Quote:Actually you are again comparing apples to illusionary oranges. Please consider real world attack chains. You may want to give AR/Dev a try, cause I know you could build a better case against them if you had an idea of how to play them.
So far everything you have suggested stated or laid claim to hasn't even been in the ball park. It's very hard to take anything you say seriously when you suggest laying down a 12 second lead up prior to launching an attack on a fast moving task force.
The damage numbers may not be everything but they are a damn big part of it. When you talk about needing perfect timing, its not the fire blaster that is having to hop around like a jumping bean on speed or having to continuously arrive early and leave early.Quote:Originally Posted by JD_Gumby
Hate to be the one to have to say this, plainguy, but Mids' numbers & crunching the numbers for offense by hand are actually very, very misleading. They assume you're doing nothing but laying out the damage, that your timing is perfect (if you pay attention to DPS). -
Quote:Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
Personally, I think it is completely silly to be comparing AR/Dev to Fire/non-Dev. A much more valid comparison would be other blaster primaries paired up with Devices. Using secondaries other than Devices in these kinds of comparisons is nothing more than cheap stacking of the deck against the AR/Dev combo. It's just as silly as using a comparison of AR/EM & Fire/Devices to make a point that Fire lacks AOE damage.
And that would show a lack of aim and build up is hurting the combo how ? -
Quote:If you put the flamethrower at the end of chain you are even slower at killing things and contributing less damage than the fire/blaster.Originally Posted by Gilia
Okay, this is the only response that actually addressed what I had said, so I'll speak to it.
This is just more evidence that you've not played AR/... I'm guessing not Energy/ either. M30 and Buckshot have what's called knockback. People who are knocked back cannot attack back for a few seconds. My point before about lining up your shots is you get set up so they are between you and a wall. Now, if you're that close to them and Flame thrower, you die! How does having them on the ground before you torch them make you *less* safe?
Let me get this straight.Quote:Your bias is overwhelming your responses to where they don't address the point in the first place. I mean, you commented before that Fire is safely firing all of its attacks from 40' away. But from 40' Fire Breath only hits the front line of a mob, and you're completely within range of ALL their ranged attacks.
You need the AR/Dev to start first, have particular arrangements of enemies, need the team to follow you to clean up your aggro, need the setup time not to count for AR/DEV,
and you are accusing me of being biased ?
No I am asking you to support your statements. So far it has gone something like thisQuote:Originally Posted by Warkupo
So, what, you're planting a flag in the discussion and declaring yourself the winner? If only I had thought of that first.
To which I replyQuote:Maybe later. It would require I build a giant DPS table and I don't really feel like whipping out the spread sheets for all the various situations I can think of. It would likely involve Trip Mine -> Flamethrower(Joust) -> Full Auto(100 ft)->Buckshot-> then evaluate the situation to either stay and do more damage, or go to the next group.
And then getQuote:You are at 15 seconds + movement time for what you describe there to unload the damage.
And then out come the detailed numbersQuote:*skeptical eyebrow* I'll assume yours is bigger because you insist on adding in movement, which isn't a problem if your jumping around.
Run to front of spawn
.5S
Trip Mine
5s
Flamethrower
7.33 s with DOT for 7.1s
Just to show that not only was the calculation done but it was actually slanted in your favor. -
Quote:You are at 15 seconds + movement time for what you describe there to unload the damage.Originally Posted by Warkupo
Reread Jousting Examples/How stealth works.
Maybe later. It would require I build a giant DPS table and I don't really feel like whipping out the spread sheets for all the various situations I can think of. It would likely involve Trip Mine -> Flamethrower(Joust) -> Full Auto(100 ft)->Buckshot-> then evaluate the situation to either stay and do more damage, or go to the next group
.
Thats fine but if you are going to use distance for mitigation you either have to factor in time for movement, and repositioning for the other AOEs or do without the closeup items from devices as part of what you are using as dps. You can drop a trip mine at your feet but then you get hit for the 5 second cast and more often than not in the team scenario it doesn't get used.Quote:Full Auto has a very long range, which greatly makes up for it's narrow cone. This is why it's usually optimal to use during or after the joust. 1 range enhancement let's you use Full Auto from 100 ft away, otherwise 80. Either way, when so far away your chances of getting hit are very slim.
Unless you have ranged defense don't expect being at range to do anything for you. What you are fighting in general has ranged attacks as long if not longer range than you do. If you are bopping out at max range with full auto, better expect to have to move back in range for the short range AOEs.Quote:
I actually did read your second example. My concern in the second example is that you make the assumption that AR/Dev needs to use a mitigation move, but make no such assumptions about Fire/Ice. I'm supposed to just beleive you can throw all that fire at the enemies and they will kindly wait for you to finish, never retaliating in the slightest. If you actually read my post you might be aware of this.
FA = Distance = Mitigation.
Oh, good thing that's all the mitigation you'd ever need. In that case, my AR/Dev should be perfectly fine just taking Toughness and Caltrops/Snow Storm, right?
Take a look at where blaze goes in that example, you still have aim and build up active, so you are doing 600+ points to things that are still alive. You are using it for bosses and peskier lieutenants. at that point AR/Dev is trying to cycle slug and burst or maybe pulling a web grenade and an ignite.Quote:Which has what to do with AOE vs Single Target?
What are you asking to compare here ? Are you saying the fire blaster would be wasting his aim and buildup if the AR/Dev had 5 or ten seconds on the spawn before he even got to start ? Sure that is so, but at that point the AR/Dev isn't really part of the team, he is off trying to solo the map.Quote:60 seconds. 30.1 with 99% recharge, 22.3 with Hasten. You won't be using it after every Trip mine, but you *will* be setting up that Alpha regardless, so the point still stands. A Fire Blaster is going to be wasting his build up if a competent AR/Dev is with him because the AR/Dev is going to be applying damage before he gets there, and doesn't need to wait for the enemies to be held down to do so.
Anyway at this point, I have given numbers and concrete examples to support my position, If you want to take a hammer to it come up with an example where AR/dev is outperforming. Aim and Buildup are just a really difficult pair to beat. -
Quote:Gun Drone + Trip Mine = 12sOriginally Posted by Gilia
This is what makes me think you haven't played AR/Dev. You Gun Drone and Trip Mine for aim-level defiance damage, then Full Auto. You don't HAVE to toe bomb with Trip Mines. The fact that AR/ is wicked with AoEs means you will draw people to where you're standing. With CJ+Hurdle for example, you hop a few feet back and they will run through your mines.
You are already longer than the other attack chains without even firing an attack.
Seeing as you forgot to include, the original statementQuote:You should have asked YOURSELF that. Even though it's evident to me that you have not played AR/Dev at any length, you still presented an attack chain that was significantly safer for the AR/Dev blaster than the Fire/Ice.Quote:Originally Posted by Another_Fan
What you have aggroed will be sure to join you. Just what is the damage potential of a dead blaster ?
The fire/ice blaster isn't trying to run ahead of the team.Quote:Any AR/Dev worth his salt isn't waiting around to clean up the mob after his volley of AOE's. He should be leaving for the next spawn to set up a bomb to maximize his damage potential.
Without aim and buildup yes, toss those in and it isn't even close.Quote:The problem with pointing to Full Auto is AR was on par for AoE attacks with Fire/ BEFORE Full Auto.
First lets fix your chain, Flamethrower has to go at the front if you want to optimize the Damage over time, if you put it at the back you are completely screwedQuote:Really the attack chain comparison was just silly. It is very plain to see that it was stilted and the times were biased, and if that weren't enough the AR/Dev chain was not the best nor most realistic.
Compare it to something like this:
Fire/:
Fireball 2s
Inferno 5s
Rest Until Endurance is Back 35s
Fireball 37s
AR/:
Cycle between Buckshot, M30 Grenade, and Flamethrower with them between you and a wall until they die. Way less than 37s.
Oh and Full Auto if it's a good set up for it.
Flamethrower
2.3S (DOT for 7 seconds)
Buckshot
3.2S
M30
4.1S Nothing dead yet lots of things mad at you. Out of AOEs and nothing recharged.
5.9S First minion dieing
At 5.9 seconds you have done 2/3rds the damage fire did at 6 seconds and you have been aggroing the spawn for 50% more time than the fire blaster