Another_Fan
-
Posts
3571 -
Joined
-
Quote:Originally Posted by UberGuy
Aren't you an English teacher or something?
I ask because I have no idea how you can post those words, have them mean what I think they mean, and be serious. I really don't.
If I were, I'd call your elementary school and demand they ask you back for basic vocabulary. Maybe pictures work better for you
Now just for your first bit of remedial vocabulary.Code:| | _______________ Stealth Prices |----------------------------------------------- PVP Prices ___________________________________________
Are these two sets remote ?
Or are they contiguous.
If you have trouble here are a couple of links
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/contiguous
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/remote -
Quote:http://www.thefreedictionary.com/non+sequiturOriginally Posted by Panzerwaffen
-
Quote:Originally Posted by UberGuy
I am, Fan. I've always said this was about the categories. You just don't understand what I mean by that, or you don't care.
So neither do I. "
"
It was never about the categories, and it was never about facts as far as you were concerned.
You put the last nails in that coffin with the most recent posts -
Quote:Fury of the gladiator recipe is going for 1 million at level 50.Originally Posted by UberGuy
I'm just going to let other people respond to the fact that you based all this off of crafted enhancers.
Remember, you were the one coming into an argument on how much effort was involved on obtaining these. Yeah, those of us regulars in the Market forum do live off of the lagresse of people too disinterested, lazy or uninformed in finding the cheapest thing, but are you really going to try and argue that the higher price for something (crafted vs. not) is representative of the effort people need to expend to obtain it?
Nah, don't answer that. I know you will, because the key part of the question is "are you really going to ... argue".
So back to that whole its not remotely as hard to obtain stealth IOs as it is PVP IOs the answer would be ?
Its good to see you are consistent.
-
Quote:I'm not nearly as insane as you are so here's only 3Originally Posted by UberGuy
Oh, I think I have some idea of what wrong is...
Edit: OK, I came back after I said I was done. I couldn't resist. Fan finally posted something concrete I could respond to. I guess I can see why he didn't before.
A level 50 crafted fury of the gladiator dam/rech is going for 12 million currently
-
Quote:LOL no they aren't but I never said they were.Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
But is every single stealth IO on the market currently listed as equal to or greater than 100 million infamy/influence/information? No. No they're not.
-
Quote:You really a piece of work, I mean you started in on this by berating other people on the boards for being wrong and you can't even understand what wrong is.Originally Posted by UberGuy
Which has been shown wrong, and yet you never replied to that.
If you can see that Stealth IO for 555 in the recent history, it's not "going for 100M". The fact that someone is willing to pay 100M for a level 15 is not a statement about Stealth IOs in general.
Seriously, how is this hard for you to understand?
There isn't a Celerity stealth that has its last sale for less than 40 mil and most are in 100 mil + ranges with some peaking as high as 200 mil.
Just how desperate to be right are you ?
LOL you were done long ago.Quote:Consider me done here.
Peer review on these boards ? Maybe trial by jury with expert witnesses that got their degrees from diploma millsQuote:That's called 'peer review', which is the polar opposite of I know a guy who did something and made a lot of inf, therefor MANIPULATION! -
Quote:Actually what I did was point out that a statement was not entirely accurate. I really didn't want to rehash the market manipulation argument, its gotten to the point that its like debating religion, especially when you have people that can't admit their positions have changed on the subject.Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
both you and another fan are completely wrong. all you 2 are doing now is arguing for the sake of arguing. market manipulation is not a way to make money because it can not be done. in order for it to be done you would need to buy up all the supply everytime it hit the market leaving only your goods there. it is impossible to do.
Between merits, hero villain merits, tickets, there isn't much point to debating the point anyway. Anyone can avoid the market as little or as much as they want to and IO out their toons in good time. -
LOL who knows maybe you even believe it at this point
Quote:VS what you saidYes, because I stand by what I said. It was not even remotely (ha!) "the wrong word". Seriously, is that what you're making this yellow-brick-road argument about - that you disagree with my use of that word? If that was your gripe, could you not have just said so? I still wouldn't agree, but we sure could have saved a lot of space in the forum DB.
VS what I saidQuote:Originally Posted by UberGuy
All IOs are not the same in terms of either "power level" or difficulty to obtain. Stealth IOs are not even remotely as hard to obtain as purples or PvP IOs.
VS your replyQuote:Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Stealth IOs are currently are in the 100 mil+ range you can regularly obtain PvP IOs and purples for considerably less.
VS where you are nowQuote:Originally Posted by UberGuy
You can't spend Reward Merits at all to get a purple or PvPO, and spending Alignment Merits on a Stealth IO will cost you 1/10 or less than a purple or PvPO. Moreover, you can only obtain certain, generally unpopular purples and PvPOs for 100M or less. My assertion stands.
Quote:Try this instead. "Cars on downtown streets do not drive remotely as fast as cars on the autobahn." True in general. Exceptions do exist. Very few people would argue the exceptions unless relevant in context. And yet, here we are..
You may be standing by the idea of your infallible correctness but you certainly aren't standing by what you said. -
That would be really nice
Quote:But its not what you said"Cars on highways drive faster than cars on downtown streets." Could that statement be better qualified? Yes. "(Most) cars on (many) highways drive faster than (most) cars on (most) downtown streets" would be a more concise (and less categorical) statement. People who are familiar with downtown roads and highways will know that exceptions are possible, but they also understand and accept the broad truism of the statement, unless there is a context-specific reason to call out the exceptions.
Now if we substitute in your qualifier your statement becomesQuote:Stealth IOs are not even remotely as hard to obtain as purples or PvP IOs.
Moving onQuote:cars on downtown streets don't drive remotely as fast as cars on highways
Honestly you went how many posts because you couldn't admit you chose the wrong word ? Yet you still feel justified in lecturing on others inability to understand ?Quote:Let me be blunt. I am inferring from this discussion that you suck horrifically at min/maxing. I think you do not understand how to do it. You can only see the power's stats, and don't understand how to map that to long-term play. I do. I don't just do this stuff in Mid's; I play the game with these builds too.
The cost is time. When you are with a pug, or your finely crafted TF loses people near the end of a tf, and you need the scrapper to tank, or you just need that extra bit to win that is when it pays off.Quote:This is a video game. The cost of "losing" is infinitely less. We can safely build for "most of the time" and know that "some of the time" can be covered by inspirations or whatever. I don't know about you, but I build characters who don't need to use inspirations something like 95% of the time, and then I cover the other 5% with an easily renewable resource that doesn't take a power pick.
Perhaps this never happens to you, all your tfs run perfectly, you never are on a pug, and never have problems. My hat is off to you. Your experience I would wager does not echo most peoples.
Edit: I appreciated the double appeal to majority. -
Quote:Originally Posted by OnlyHuman
I'm planning on a Psi/Dev build and looking for a link to a build or someone to post one to help with this build. My hopes are to run this for PvP mainly. Is this a good way to? Also, could I make this team friendly as well?
I have done both separately, I really cant see combining them, or /dev working at all well in pvp. About the only thing its got going for it is the web grenade. -
Quote:Does bolding things make you believe things more ?Originally Posted by UberGuy
You keep trying to aim in your scope for tighter and tighter grouping, and you're shooting at the wrong target.
AS A CATEGORY, Stealth IOs are not remotely as hard to obtain as PvPOs. Level 15 Celerity Stealth IOs are not the entire category. They are an example. One example. They are harder to obtain than some PvPOs. There are easier Celerity Stealth IOs to obtain. There is an entire other set of Stealth IOs that is easier to obtain.
Just to let you try and understand what you are saying take a look below
Are A and B remote from each other as categories or are they quite close.
I understand perfectly what you have been trying to do and say, my failing would be in conveying back to you how foolish it sounds.
What you are trying to say is the equivalent, of saying the United States is far from Russia because Washington is distant from Moscow, when in fact they are 53 miles apart across the Bering Strait.
Do I need to go into why having mitigation factors in excess of 50% is so powerful and why taking 2.5% of incoming damage and having 20% more hitpoints is so potent.Quote:I am not the one with language difficulty here.
(a) A Scrapper at the softcap is already at Tanker-like survivability, because, considering their defense only, everyone at the softcap is at 90% average damage mitigation, regardless of AT.
In real life a tank only rarely takes a hit from a tank killing weapon incredibly infrequently especially when not involved in full scale warfare. By your logic a family sedan with a big gun would work just as well because the need to survive a hit comes up rarely.Quote:(b) A Scrapper at the softcap rarely ever needs the extra mitigation provided by OwtS. I have stated this repeatedly. You are focusing only on the magnitude of the total mitigation when activated and ignoring how likely one is to need to activate it. Players who have min/maxed their build have looked at how likely they are to need the benefits of OwtS and (prior to I19) decided they could do without it. I know only one such character who has OwtS. Is it nice to have? Yes. Does it increase their survival potential. Probably. But if they need it only rarely once capped, and I am telling you, flat out, that they do, then adding something they will need only rarely is not transformative to the character. It does not, by definition of the fact that it is needed and used only rarely, transform the way that the character plays in general.
What you are disregarding is having a god mode lets people take on greater challenges or deal with the ones they have in much better fashion. Then again I am trying to explain to someone that a "GOD MODE" is actually powerful to have. -
Quote:I have never really made an effort to play with that, the bonuses seem to be very small. The best are if I recall correctly are around 4%, does it really make a difference ?Originally Posted by StratoNexus
This is, IMO, a myth. I believe in IOing for global damage.
-
Quote:Let me helpOriginally Posted by UberGuy
Uber needs help with english
So when you have two categories that overlap are they remote, or close ?Quote:Definitions for remote.
- distant: located far away spatially; "distant lands"; "remote stars"
- outside: very unlikely; "an outside chance"; "a remote possibility"; "a remote contingency"
- distant: separate or apart in time; "distant events"; "the remote past or future"
Quote:So you just run around popping it for giggles? I don't think so; you need to have a reason to pop it. You can be proactive about popping it before piling into a dangerous fight, but that still means you're use it because you're either in trouble, or think you're about to be. You don't use a power like this "just because".
For those for whom activating OwtS is as valuable to their performance as you describe, they will have had it already unless they're n00bs (who aren't under discussion). This isn't just a function of the standalone benefits of the power, which are significant in absolute terms. The final benefit to a character has to be looked at in the context of the rest of the build. Remember - my context was for benefit to high-end, optimized builds. People just don't leave transformative things off of those kinds of builds. On a well-built, softcapped Shield Defense build, OwtS is going to be nice to have, but not transformative.
FWIW, I am quite familiar with what the power's stats are and what it does for the user. I actually think it's one of the best "godmodes" out there for a Defense-based powerset exactly because it layers other mitigation under that defense. That doesn't mean I think that a softcapped build is going to find it important to have except in edge cases. I can't understand why you don't see that this is why people skipped it to begin with. They knew they didn't need it most of the time, and that's exactly the kind of power that gets left off in a highly optimized build. That's why picking it up isn't what I'm calling transformative.
Have you ever run a /shield character ? Or are you just trying to say how you play is how everyone plays , "unless they're n00bs".
I don't know maybe you are having further trouble with English again or maybe you are just trying to use the language in a very strange way.
So a power that elevates a scrapper from scrapper levels of survivability to tank like levels of survivability is not a change in character, in your world ?Quote:Transformative: to undergo a change in form, appearance, or character; become transformed. -
Quote:Clearly you do not even understand your actual statements. I provided examples where the price a "Quantitative" measure of the difficulty to gain the IOs was more for stealth IOs than it was for pvp or purple sets.Originally Posted by UberGuy
Clearly, you do not understand the word "quantitative". "Most" or "many" is not quantitative. You have provided absolutely zero quantitative defense of your position on whether PvPOs and Purples are harder to obtain as categories than pool C/D rares as a category. Instead you have chosen a single set and only at a single level, and then compared that to the cheapest of PvPOs.
I can appreciate your need to move the argument onto ground where you might have a chance of making a point, but here is your statement.
So what is the quantitative measure of "Not even remotely as hard". Just at a guess I wouldn't think costs more than 25%+ of the category is it.Quote:Originally Posted by UberGuy
Stealth IOs are not even remotely as hard to obtain as purples or PvP IOs. I can accept the argument that inventions are an important part of character customization, though I do not agree with it as a blanket statement. But all inventions are not the same, and I do not accept the argument that all of them need to have the same levels of availability. Even "Rare" invention recipes have relatively low barriers to entry, especially since the addition of alignment merits. Best of all, those barriers to access aren't uniformly high - you only need to spend reward or alignment merits on the items with the highest barriers; the rest (and the majority) can be obtained on the market at price levels that are reasonable to attain through regular play and thus without "marketeering".
Quote:I really wonder if you have played a softcapped character. I really wonder if you have played with a power with a traditional "godmode's" crash at the end. One with the shield has a 60% endurance crash at the end of its run and a 30% endurance recovery boost while active. Your comparisons to traditional god mode powers may sound great to you but is completely off base. Also, just because you pop god modes in a reactive rather than a proactive fashion does not mean everyone does.Quote:
Very long string of irrelevant comparisons
Its pretty obvious you are speaking from a lack of experience with using the power, having that kind of survivability boost available a 1/3 of the time is very significant and changes what you can do and the kind of challenges you can take on. -
I can certainly get behind the above. I have always said that shield defense on a scrapper is truly amazing for its ability to absorb all nearby inf and benefit from it. Its really no surprise that /shield builds are amongst the most expensive builds in the game but will actually pay back their cost in very reasonable time.
You can max out a blaster relatively cheaply, we are talking about around 1/3 the cost of a high end scrapper, but when you are done you wind up with much lower return on what you spent in inf and in time working it out. If its your main, and you are attached to it that's one thing but if you are talking performance its another. -
People get too expensive, they wind up training their low cost replacements, then they get eased out. Its business.
I hate to be the guy saying this but it really doesn't mean much of anything, and attributing anything to it other than NcSoft wanted to cut costs is well a stretch. -
Quote:Between Incarnates and inherent fitness, I think just about everything except maybe defenders has become the next farm ATs and I am not all that sure about defenders being left out anymore.Originally Posted by Fiery-Enforcer
If Blasters got an AoE immobilize they would probably become the next go to AT for farming.
-
Quote:I already have. But, I do appreciate your attempt at insinuation to bolster your failed argument.Originally Posted by UberGuy
Ah, yes, your favorite arguing tactic: qualitative.
Would you care to make it quantitative and provide either the median or average prices?
I think that is more the path you have gone down.Quote:Use whichever you think best supports your position.
One with the shield is +resistance, + recovery, and + HP on a softcapped build .If you can say ,being able to layer those on top of positional defense capping, isnt transformatve its pretty clear you are defining transformative in a way no one else does, or just redefining it so no matter what the change is it doesn't qualify.Quote:And I reiterated that again above. Swift, Hurdle and Stamina and Health at level 10 with no cost to other power or pool picks? Transformative. Three powers when you're already heavily min/maxed? Not typically transformative, with specific exception made (repeatedly) for builds with high defense who can add even a little more, because of how defense stacking mechanics work.
And as I pointed out, not one build actually produced included only changes relating to the new powers. They all included additional improvements that were already available, then tried to say that the three extra powers made the entire delta possible.
Were they defense capped before? If not, why didn't they already have it? If they are defense capped, how often do they require a big chunk of resistance that they want to be careful to only activate when they can manage the crash? How is obtaining this power transformative? -
Quote:Its an interesting kind of edge case when in the case of PVP IOs most are not that expensive, and in the case purples you have pieces from 3 sets that are horrendously expensive, 2 set that are relatively inexpensive, and 4 sets that gyrate between the price levels.Originally Posted by UberGuy
Except that's not what I said. You seem very keen to devolve everything to the edge cases and try to frame the argument as if all references must refer to those edges. Try comparing the average or median prices of purples to the same calculation for non-purple rares. Then try the same for PvPOs to non-purple rares. If all PvPOs were 20M except for the Panacea and Glad Armor uniques, then it wouldn't be common to call PvPOs expensive. There's more to it than that.
Actually what you said, was that having 3 extra power picks was not a big thing thing for a "Min/Maxed build", that the ability to free up extra slots or pick powers that could be beneficial with minimal slotting would not be transformative or a major improvement.Quote:I'm referring to that thread, but that's not what I argued. I argued that the change was a more dramatic change for characters that didn't have Fitness (particularly including the low end of the game where fitness is not presently an option) than gaining three powers (but no extra slots) was for most previously optimized builds at the high end. I frequently stated that I agreed that there was a shift in power at the top end, but I argued that it was not as large as some were suggesting, because they were combining what they could do with three extra powers with room for improvement that was already present in their build, then calling that that whole improvement the change introduced by inherent Fitness.
The simple rebuttal is all the builds people have done for I19 with marked increased levels of performance. I am particularly enjoying the Shield Defense builds that now have one with shield. -
Quote:Take that the other way, On the characters I have that use Sleep and confuse sets, I doubt I would gain very much benefit at all from slotting a gladiators unique or even a full panacea set.Originally Posted by UberGuy
When people talk about purples and how they are expensive and hard to find, do you think they're talking about Coercive Persuasion? Sure, there are characters for whom players slot that set, and if a character both has a sleep and benefits strongly from high recharge, it can be a very smart thing to slot. But because some people slot it does not mean that it's the exemplar of what people think of when they talk about purples in general, especially in the context of being hard to obtain.
Try putting together a list of recent sale prices for PvPOs by piece. Then feel free to discuss whether any of the pieces that cost anything like 20M are representative of what folks on the forums are referring to when they use a vernacular reference to PvPOs. We don't have to be pathological and restrict the discussion to the +3% defense unique - there are plenty of other PvPOs well over 20M. I'll help you out. The 20M examples are to the collective set of PVPOs what Coercive Persuasion is to purples. In fact, some of them probably aren't even looked on as favorably.
Personally, I find it hard to believe that you're that detached from the vernacular of the game, which leads me to conclude that you're arguing this point for the sake of argument. Then again, you argued some pretty outre angles regarding highly optimized builds in another thread, so maybe you really are badly disconnected from what people are doing and saying.
As to what the folks on the forum say, well I just got done reading a thread asking for regen to be buffed when it is being buffed. In another thread, I spent 20+ posts trying to explain why using base recharge numbers doesn't produce meaningful results, so I can only go by what is actually said. Of course, all you had to say was you meant the most expensive PvP and Purple IOs. In that case a fair comparison would have been the most expensive items you can buy with some form of merit.
Would that thread you are referring to be the one where you argued, that inherent fitness pool was a negligible change ? -
I19 isn't buffing regen ?
Wonder how it got left out. -
Quote:And just what is that ? I pointed you can easily expect to over 100 mil for stealth IOs but you can get PvP IOs and Purple IOs in the low millions.Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
just stop. you have a bad habbit of taking something and twisting it so that it fits your idea of what is going on. kinda like saist and some others. so just stop.
We have one guy who is digging out special case pricing, and making unjustified assumptions about the drop rates for the IOs. We have another who sets up takes the worst way imaginable to get these things and goes see it will take you forever to get these things but you can get stealth IOs really quickly.
As to the desirability ? To who ? I find the purple sleep and confuses very desirable, the Ragnarok chance of is also very nice. My controllers, blasters, and defenders slot them all very effectively. The PvP hold set is also good, and the javelin volley quad and triples are also very very good for rounding out the abysmal targeted AoE sets. -
Quote:Originally Posted by UberGuy
When people talk about the price of PvPOs in the abstract, do you assume they're talking about the ones that very few people slot?
Really ? How many people are slotting gladiators armor uniques ? -
Quote:From what I have seen in this thread it has been about nothing but arbitrary limitations on how people play the game.Originally Posted by UberGuy
You wandering into a conversation days after it petered out and applying arbitrary limitations on how people play the game is meaningless on many layers.