Archon099

Definitely a good point, Ironblade. Not everyone likes to follow the specific rules of the class, but the general consensus on melee classes is that most dislike knockback in favor of knockdown. They made sweeping changes to almost every melee attack set in this regard, from Broadsword and Battle Axe to Super Strength and Stone Melee. The few attacks that stayed as knockback were the ones designed for single-target tossing, like Martial Arts: Crane Kick. That can be strategically used to gather enemies up if one gets too far from the rest. My MA/Regen scrapper does this to help keep enemies near the tank.

Personally, I feel the issue here is that having a stealth class with a knockback move like Crane Kick is a great idea, but giving them an area effect scattering move like Energy Aura: Repulse is the whole other direction. Not only does it scatter enemies from the team's tank, breaking aggro and getting the less defensive people killed (including the stalker who can gain aggro from such a move), but it also will break stealth, which is how stalkers start a fight.

I do agree that Stalkers can be designed to stand toe-to-toe with scrappers and other classes and fight to the death, but they still specialize in sneaking up and getting the upper hand right from the start. This move defeats that purpose. It's almost like giving a Controller a move that snaps the target enemy out of any status effects currently on them. It's like giving a Tanker a Placate move.

It's not so much about "liking" a power, Smash Zone. What we're talking about is powers that are just not suited to the character they are given to. Would it make sense to give an assassination move to a Defender?

Power sets are supposed to maintain a general level of balance. They don't have to all do the same things, but they should provide the same level of importance to a character and his team. That's why I would agree it falls under bugs. When new sets are made to be well-rounded but older ones aren't changed to keep up, that's a maintenance issue. I program, and I know for a fact that you spend more time upkeeping a program than writing it. Online games deal with this even more so. Outdated or surpassed performance is a maintenance issue.

His main example was Stalker: Energy Aura: Repulse. It counteracts a stalker's purpose, and it for some reason ONLY exists in the stalker version.

My example was Tanker: Dark Armor: Cloak of Darkness. Why give the designated center of attention the ability to lose that attention? That's like getting your designated driver drunk. Why include this power when a more tanker-specific power could be included?

Much like Tanker: Dark Armor: Cloak of darkness, brutes get Energy Aura: Energy Cloak, a stealth move on what is somewhat the tank of the villains. Now if you are purely DPS or PvP in build, for a brute stealth may not be completely unwanted, but it's so minor in effect that not only can you replace it with a pool power of nearly equal effect, but it also doesn't really provide the effect the Brute Archetype is designed for.

Electric Armor was brought on par with other armor sets with the inclusion of a heal with +HP effect. Dark Armor was much like Electric Armor in resistance granted, but the endurance costs, mez protection, and last resort capabilities of Dark Armor were lacking in comparison. It still provides no bonus HP and no last resort like Overload or One with the Shield. They have updated other sets to be more in-line with their purpose and more reliably up-to-par with their counterparts. I still would consider these balance issues to be bugs.

I would have to agree with you on Stalker/Energy Armor/Repulse. Why?

I also don't like stealth for tankers. Why does Dark Armor for tankers still have Cloak of Darkness? The last thing a tank wants is to NOT be seen, and even if you consider the fact that it suppresses when you attack anyway, it's a fairly high endurance cost for such a small defense bonus, perception, and immobilize protection. Not only that, but Dark Armor is a bit more frail than other power sets, and while you're at it removing the stealth from the tank version, it's heal Dark Regeneration could use a small +HP bonus. It has NO hitpoint increases and NO last resort power like Unstoppable or Moment of Glory. The general formula seems to be: Charge, Heal, Die, Rez, Heal, Die. A last resort power or some +HP bonus somewhere would make it much sturdier. It already lacks knockback protection, but at least there is an enhancement for that. Anyone who has played Regen, Willpower, Shield Defense, Energy Aura, Ice Armor, any other sets can agree that Dark Armor has some shortcomings.

Personally, I feel the devs really ARE trying to balance PvP, but just keep missing the nail and hitting their thumbs every couple swings of the hammer. ED and the global defense changes were for PvE balance, but they affected PvP greatly. They kept you from fighting someone who had 5 damage SOs and enough damage to one shot you. They tried to make it so you can't get killed in one hit. They tried to make it so that blasters have damage penetration because they have nothing else going for them. They increased controller Containment damage in PvP because they were too weak. They made dominators get Domination faster, even out of PvP.

As good as their intentions were with these changes, they still kinda miss the mark. Controllers get tripple damage on a controlled PvPer... but a well planned PvP build can't be controlled by one, so what's the point? A dominator can hold a tanker with domination... but he can't get domination before he's dead, so what's the point? A Super Reflex scrapper has massive resistance to defense debuffs because it's his/her only method of defense... but someone can slot tons of accuracy and it's like you have no armor powers anymore, so what's the point?

The problem is not that Heroes were "intended" to beat Villains, but that everyone in this game is "super". A hero is a guy who pushes a kid out of the way of a car. A super hero is a guy who stops the car with his mind powers. A villain is the robber trying to make a getaway in a car and nearly hitting that kid. A super villain is the guy who throws the car at the kid with his bare hands. There is some major scale differences between this game and, say, WoW. In World of Warcraft you are a soldier in an army. You are one of millions. You are a grunt. You have some cool abilities, but you are still not a super hero/villain.

I have played both CoX and WoW, and I do admit WoW has more balanced PvP, but that's because they have less powerful people. A rogue can't one shot a character built for PvP... he's just a guy with a knife sneaking up on you. A stalker is a guy with a katana and negative energy seeping from his skin who impales you. He is meant to do a lot of damage and be harder to notice. But there are ways around that. +Perception and increased accuracy destroy stalkers. I've known Archery/Device blasters who could see a stalker with stealth at a long enough range to Aim+Snipe before he got close enough to assassinate, and he hit and ultimately killed him.

The only classes I feel are inadequate are controllers/dominators. The problem is that if they can hold someone, they can win, but if they can't, they lose. People build their characters to not let that happen, so they can't win. If they made it easier for them to hold people, then they would be TOO good. It's a hard issue to balance, since CoX is one of the only games with a devoted mez class. WoW gives every class a mez or two, but never too many, and most are breakable. That's how they balanced the game, but CoH isn't that kind of game.

It's a hard issue to fix, and even though there are no red names posting here yet, I'm sure they know about PvP imbalance. Every new issue seems to have a new PvP change of some kind, so at least they are trying. Just having trouble doing it right, I guess. *shrugs* Who knows. Every time they change PvP to balance it, everyone complains.

*turn up blaster damage and change defiance* Corruptors say: Hey! What the deuce!?
*lower damage of stalker epic snipe powers because of hide crits* Stalkers: dont nerf me nubs! thatz hella lame!
*improve domination* Tankers: Oi! I'm supposed to be invincible!

Someone will always find reason to complain... especially when everyone wants to be "super." Super means being above average, and that doesn't make for balanced PvP. Balanced means finding a happy medium, and no one wants to be Mediocre Man or The Average Avenger!

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Defiance is not an effective boost to the higher end blaster and since that is where the majority of time is spent (XP halfway point is level 38 for all ATs IIRC), the majority of blasters see no boost from defiance.

At least not a boost a few red inspirations wouldn't provide while still at 100% health!

Further, while we're tempting blasters to walk on the razor's edge after removing any defenses they could have mustered together it is important to point out that just two deaths in a mission (even at higher slider settings) will provide you with more debt than XP when that beloved completion bonus comes around even with instanced missions providing halved debt.

Blasters need to stand out as the offensive juggernauts you have labeled them as from 100% health on. They have sacrificed defense, resistance, status protection, buffs, group control, and heals for damage. They have given up EVERYTHING for damage and are outdamaged by even MORE people in I5.

Drop defiance.

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My response to complaints like this about defiance are as follows:

1. In case you didn't read what the devs have said, although stealth has been weakened, blasters have been given more defensive powers in their secondaries. Cloaking device was the only one, so they added some for other sets. I don't want to hear people getting angry that just cloaking device without major stealth bonuses isn't enough because you chose to be a blaster, not a super reflex scrapper

2. Defiance is a bonus for an already good damage dealer. Blasters did not see ANY nerfs that weren't already dealt to every other AT. Don't complain about your new advantages.

3. Defiance is NOT meant to be the source of your powers. It is NOT meant to be in effect at all times, or else what would you be defying? Your victory? Defiance makes you do more damage when you are getting lower in health. This means that at the time when you truly need the battle to just end, you could get that chance. This is by no means a state to waltz around in.

4. Blasters have also been given a boost to their HP. Now, with I5's encouragement of teaming by not reaching survivability caps without buffs, a bubble defender and a sonic defender would be able to keep you going a lot better.

5. I have at least 3 of every AT, and after playing healers (and other defenders in general), i've found that on live servers right now, blasters are the hardest people to heal. They fight far away with AoE. Though they deal tons of damage, they then get tons of aggro, then take tons of damage, and by the time i try to heal them, they have taken off... around corners, over hills, behind walls, up in the sky, they always find somewhere, lol. Doing this doesn't drop their aggro, though, and now they are simply far from the team, unable to be healed and helped, with a few enemies attacking them that, had they stayed with the group, would have been taken care of, as would their low HP. Although not all are, blasters tend to be the hardest to heal because they are never in range of heals.

Now, after playing on the test server, though the HP bonus is minimal, and there is a lack of tankers online becuase people are testing the new power sets, blasters are far more confident in their own ability, as well as in the healers. Instead of resorting to headless chicken tactics, they are willing to wait that extra second for a heal, knowing that they could get one more moment of heavier damage. They are trusting their teams more and the team stays close together.

6. You also now have a limit to the number of enemies a single attack is allowed to hit. Blasters have been more than upset about this, but fail to notice the increase to thier survivability this causes. When fireball only hits 14 guys, and the other 14 don't get hit, only half have even noticed you now. That's half the aggro (in this case). Buckshot may only hit 10 guys or so, but that means only 10 care about your presence. These examples are considering the tanker isn't taunting and other characters aren't drawing aggro, but are simply in view of the enemies before you attack.

7. The comment about what blasters sacrifice to become offensive juggernauts is completely wrong. Blasters do get minor crowd control and defenses (in their secondaries). Blasters are given enough status effects to hold off aggro, that is unless one is an all-out AoE blaster rather than an Assassin blaster (a blaster with fully slotted damage on only single target attacks that can 2 to 4 shot a guy and never get more than two enemies-worth of aggro at a time) will live forever on a team. With ice and electric you can hold, assault rifle and devices you can disorient, using stealth, cloaking device, or smoke grenade makes you only noticeable in team combat by the enemies you attack (i've stood in the center of enemy lines on a team without a tanker using only stealth and never got more than 2 enemies on me), etc. Blasters have enough crowd control to comply with their personal needs, not the needs of the rest of the team. They also get buffs, but, again, for their personal needs. The blaster gets at least a little bit of everything but heals, and still have the most damage.

8. As for the comment about Blasters being outdamaged by even more people now....?!?!?!!?! What tanker have you seen do more damage than you!? (except for the now nerfed fire tanker ) How about the defenders that have the same attacks as you, but without Defiance, and with their drastically inferior damage? (a defender with full damage slotting will NEVER be as strong as a blaster doing the same) Scrappers are in the thick of battle and can only attack melee (with minor exceptions), so they need the survivability and damage output. As a blaster, you shouldn't be in melee range of tons of guys that are focused on you. This only leaves the controller as a possible reason for complaints. Do you know how many damaging attacks Controllers get? Some sets have one, like spectral wounds, though gravity control gets lift and propel. Fire, ice, and earth control sets don't get any moves that can be labled as real attacks. Then they eventually get pets. Most other mezzes don't do much damage if they do any at all. Doubling it isn't going to make them stronger than blasters. An illusion controller with a damage slotted spectral wounds could blind a guy and destroy him fast, but you have to remember that they illusion only gets fear and holds, no disorient, sleep, imobilize, or knockback, plus their fear is cast by a non-controllable pet. Gravity may get two attacks, but they are still not as strong as a blaster and blasters get more.

As you fight higher enemies (compared to your level), defenders slotted for damage can compare to blasters against enemies the same level as the hero. You try on enemies two or three levels higher, and the defender will be half as strong at best. This level-to-level damage scaling is the reason no one will ever be stronger than blasters and scrappers without being one himself/herself. Blasters and scrappers damage stays steady even when attacking higher level enemies, whereas the other ATs lose strength at a frightening rate. From what I've seen, most good teams fight things higher levels than themselves anyway, leaving you blasters on top for damage.


Every AT has a job, and blasters are better at theirs now, so no more complaining! Be happy with your lack of nerfs.

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Here is the KEY to the Burn changes: Fire Aura goes from being a set with playable offense and substandard durability, to a set with unplayable offense and excellent durability (since all the other tanks are being brought down to Fire's durability level). If the core vision of the powerset is being changed, then Tankers should be given a full AT respec, so I can take a different Primary or Secondary. Changing Burn like this is akin to taking pets completely away from Illusion controllers. My entire SECONDARY power set was picked strictly for its control options, to make it work with Burn. Now, I have Defense and Control, but no way of getting the offense powers I need.

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.....wow.......
Do you even realize what you said? You are mad that the developers made your only attack (maybe you have one or two from your secondary, like another AoE to keep aggro) less of an attack and more a status heal for immob?

Let me ask you something.... What is the damage move for Invulnerability?... Stone Armor? Surely you can't say Mudpots is a powerhouse move...

Guess what, fire tankers? You know that Fiery Aura that gives you all your power? IT...IS...A...PROTECTION...SET. It is a TANKER PRIMARY SET. It is to give you status resistances, damage resistance and/or defense, heals, more HP, etc. It is NOT a tanker secondary (also known as a MELEE DAMAGE power set). You should NOT have your strongest move in your armor set. Your damaging moves are meant to be part of your attack set, or secondary. Get some of those and you can fight... all you need to do is fix your current build with a regular respec. Get some attacks if you feel you can't do damage anymore.

Most of all... do NOT say Fiery Aura now has "unplayable offense and excellent durability." Yes, it now has survivability comparable to other tanker sets, but it is still the only one with TWO, count them, TWO area effect damaging moves (some don't even have one). Did any of you fire tankers ever READ your powers' descriptions? There is a power in your Fiery Aura power set that "boosts the damage of ALL of the user's fire attacks"...... NO OTHER TANKER SET HAS THAT! And even more so, it encourages you to actually GET your secondary set's attacks if you are Fire/Fire. Fire tankers are now one of the BEST tanker sets in the game because they still have the most damage, they have an endurance heal, and only two toggles needed for resistance to almost every damage type (one for smash/lethal, the other for energy/neg. energy/fire/cold). Stone Armor has 6 (smash/lethal, fire/cold, energy/neg. energy, psionics, one for status effects/end drain/health regen but it adds a severe slow and anti -jump/-fly/-superspeed/-sprint, followed by granite armor).... and Stone Armor doesn't get an endurance heal like Fiery Aura! Six toggles and no boost to secondary set damage is far worse by comparison, but i don't feel a need to complain that my tankers suck.

All I want fire tankers to understand is that their powers are still some of the best in the game, especially with the nerfs, DESPITE the possible need to respec in some attacks. You are, after all, a TANKER. Not a scrapper. Before I5, tankers tanked, scrappers scrapped, and fire tankers could do more damage than a scrapper to more enemies in less time with less challenge than a scrapper ever could, and could still take more hits than a scrapper before hittin the floor. You never should complain that now you are still as good at tanking when others were weakened and you should not complain that you can't be the primary damage dealer. You aren't supposed to be a damage dealer. Get over it.

As for the pet comment, taking the effortless divininity that was Burn away from fire tankers is NOT like taking pets away from an Illusion controller. Illusion control has one pet that does real damage, the last one. Phantom Army will cause the enemy to heal about 90% of the initial damage, making them about as strong as Blind (the single-foe hold). They are more like the opposite of Dull Pain on other tanker/scrapper sets. Instead of boosting your max HP, these pets are a constant debuff to the enemies' current HP, keeping it low while they are out but never doing significant damage, just as Dull Pain keeps your max HP up, while providing a boost to the percentage of the bar that was full before you used it. Though Illusion control has two different types of pets that can be summoned, only one is a true damaging pet, and they get very little status effects; one hold, an AoE hold, and a drop fear caster (though a pet, it is more a drop fear effect, just as Auto Turret is more of a drop damage). Other controller sets get more status effects, like sleep, disorient, immobilize, and many get AoEs of these effects too. This makes Illusion control require on more defender-like buffs, and a blaster-like first move that is now actually worth getting with I5.

Know your powers and others before wasting the devs' times with whines about nerfs. You fire tankers were nerfed the least of all the sets that were nerfed. A thank you would be much more appropriate.

With every new major update, the devs have tried to get rid of some problem that makes a certain build uber. Early on those "I want to beat the game easy with the least effort and with the strongest/most invincible character" people found Invulnerabilty. It was the best set to keep from dying. It was flawless, and at the same time, required no thought during combat. Turn on toggles, i have my autos, use Invincible, can't die. That was a problem, so they nerfed it to bring it to the same level as other sets. Then those people who just wanted an easy character were wondering "what do i do next?" So they find another set. "Hey look, fire has the strongest AoE in the game and enemies don't even run" along with "hey look, i can use hasten and recharge slotting to have tons of pets forever, and never get aggro because they are always out doing the damage." The reason these needed nerfed now is because they didn't become a problem until they were widespread, and they took time to become popular because it took the "Game Acer" types a little while to find a new ultimate build. It's only a matter of time before the next one, fire tanks, so just sit back and relax until a new uber set is found and popularized to the point of becoming a balance issue.

I do like the idea someone mentioned that burn should be an AoE severe damage move like a blaster final move with a long, unshrinkable recharge time, but still, you are not a blaster. The power is not ruined; it is changed. Change with it. You could, i don't know, actually strategize like Assault Rifle blasters. They have a ranged drop that is like burn, so they use it like caltrops to block off the path to the squishies.... hmm.... that sounds kind of like... defending the team... like a tanker should be doing...

As for the universal I5 complaints, does anyone remember the Winter Lord? (There is some relevance here, I'll get to it) Remember how for weeks, people did nothing but lvl up sometimes even multiple times in no time? Once the Winter Lord left, the city was vacant of most heroes. Know why? People were dissapointed that they couldn't level that fast anymore and had to go back to *gasps* playing the game normally. Many got bored and left... but you know what? The only ones left were the ones you really wanted to team with. They actually knew what they were doing, they weren't being PLd, they weren't complaining. They were having fun and adapting to the situation. Those are the people that are worth playing with, and if you hate or don't understand I5 enough to leave, the people that are worth playing with and make the game fun will still be here.

I've heard mention that the people who love I5 are PLing now while they still can. HAHAHAHAHAHA! Oh, you were serious? Well, I'll have you know that I have never known anyone on my 3 servers with any of my 17 characters on any of my friends lists, global or otherwise, who has helped someone or has been helped by someone with a PL, and the ones that I see are terrible at the game because they never played with their characters to learn their moves, strategies, other characters' moves, or anything else about the game really. They are TERRIBLE on teams and with the new nerfs that make teams desirable instead constant soloing, they are kind of out of luck, and I say good ridance. That statement I heard about I5 lovers PLing while they still can is baseless and is just some kid trying to find someone else to point the finger at to say the update is making everyone mad, when it is not. The PLers are most likely people who have PLd before and now want to finish all their characters before it's too late.