Aquila_NA
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Posts
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Joined
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Quote:Fixed.Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
Wait, Positron believes new currencies for every single game feature is the answer?
Dear lord, it's Jack 2.0
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Quote:1) They're welcome to delete away.Originally Posted by Snow Globe
1) I doubt you are a lawyer.
2) I'm sure that NCsoft and Paragon Studios do have lawyers.
3) The burden of proof is on the person making the claim that it was included.
4) Given that no one can provide that proof, they have failed to substantiate their claim.
5) Given that they can't prove their claim, they are lying.
6) You don't have to prove that, at the point of purchase, Incarnates were mentioned. The person making the claim has to prove that all the other documentation that can be found is false.
2) I was never trying to prove anything. I asked a question on behalf of someone else and was never fully satisfied that the sources provided conclusively answered that question.
3) Again, I NEVER MADE A CLAIM.
4) Where's the Ignore button? -
Quote:I agree that this page argues strongly against any likelihood that Incarnates were advertised as included in the prepurchase. It almost nails it cold, as I said to Gangrel. If the Prepurchase Now button went to a valid page, we would know for certain. As it stands, I believe that there was most probably nothing about Incarnates on the following page but, like I also said, I never visited it and never read it. So, I don't know.Originally Posted by ScottyB
You've overlooked an important detail: any version of the prepurchase page from before March 26th can't mention Incarnates, because PAX East hadn't happened yet. It wasn't until the last week of March that the Incarnate sneak peek was revealed. At the very least this means anyone who prepurchased prior to PAX couldn't have done so believing they'd get Incarnates.
However, even the April version of the prepurchase page does not mention Incarnates (nothing on the site - even official PAX reporting - mentioned Incarnates). If they never updated the site designed to promote Going Rogue, then the odds are very much against the NCSoft store page being updated. If the promotional site didn't get an update, then my mind would be blown that the publishers updated a product page.
At any rate, it doesn't affect me and I'm tired of people who don't read or don't understand the difference between what is advertised, implied, hinted at or speculated upon and what is AGREED to upon sale. You people who truly believe that your prepurchase stipulated Incarnate access: Good luck finding proof. Sincerely. -
I don't think that they lied. I just think that is is remotely possible that some people entered into a contract (buying goods) that I'm not sure is being honored.
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Quote:And YOU claim that "But the page you actually paid on never ever ever made any claim about incarnates. Not ever." HOW can you? I can't PROVE it did because, so far, it is lost in the Internet Aether. How can YOU CLAIM it when your own PROOF is the SAME PLACE AS MINE?Originally Posted by TerraDraconis
But the page you actually paid on never ever ever made any claim about incarnates. Not ever.
At best there may have been ad copy or something from May or June that mentioned it once and then was pulled. Though I'm thinking all those references apparently go back to comments by Positron at PAX which don't constitute an accurate claim of what will be in the final release, but just what is being worked on.
Anyone making a claim that they bought it from a page stating that it included incarnates is the one needing to prove it at this point. There is plenty of evidence that such a claim was not made on the actual order page. -
Quote:Might have been exactly what I was looking for if the link to the purchase screen still worked.Originally Posted by Gangrel_EU
Pre-Purchase link from EU Going Rogue site: 2nd April 2010
http://web.archive.org/web/201004020...b/prepurchase/
And on the "pre purchase" part of the website, it has *no* mention of Incarnates, infact it only talks about Demon Summoning and Dual Pistols
((Funnily enough it also says that Going Rogue would be released in July 2010...))
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Quote:If one of those isn't the page where people plopped their money down, then they add nothing except more fallacious non-proof.Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
The link was already provided alongside the other links in post #344. The same post also included a screen shot of the old Going Rogue FAQ where it lists the differences between the pre-purchase and the complete edition. The FAQ was also available prior top the launch of GR and doesn't make any mention of Incarnates.
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Quote:Link?Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
And the pre-purchase never advertised anything about Incarnate content. Only the two power sets.
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Quote:On the dates, you may be right (probably are). The problem with that page is really that the it says nothing about it being pre-purchase.Originally Posted by Gangrel_EU
Errm, I thought that Going Rogue was released 17th August 2010...
Issue 19: Incarnates was released November 30th 2010....
Issue 19.5: Strike Pack was released 1st February 2011....
Edit: And if you read what i linked to earlier up on the thread (EU going Rogue site, 4th May 2010) you would notice that their overview page doesnt list Incarnates...
Infact, it wasnt until July that Positron said that the Sneak Peak was going to be pulled out of Going Rogue...
So what do we go on? What the website advertises or what the developers say?
Now, if the pre-order site states that Going Rogue had Incarnate stuff, but it was removed from the official Going Rogue website before 4th May... dont you find it strange that there was no developer comment about it until July.... especially if it was going ot be an "Official feature" of Going Rogue... -
Quote:Yes.Originally Posted by TerraDraconis
Actually no.
It is the people who are making the extra ordinary claim that Incarnates where part of the Going Rogue expansion that must prove their case. Eveyone who has looked into it and posted their sources has not found any support for that claim.
Therefore the burden of proof rests on the side making the claim that Going Rogue was advertised as having the full incarnate system included. A preview is not unlocking a system and a preview can end at anytime. That is the nature of a preview.
So it is incumbent upon the people making the claim that purchasing GR also purchased Incarnates to produce the proof of that claim.
What I meant is that an assertion was made that has not been proven for the exact same reason that I can not, at this time prove the reverse.
Proof is proof, whichever the side. Conjecture is not proof for either. -
Quote:CorrectOriginally Posted by TerraDraconis
Positron talking about features they currently have in an Alpha/Beta build of an expansion does not equal a promise that said feature will be there on release. Until an issue goes gold any feature can be removed, changed beyond expectation, added, or otherwise folded, spindled, or mutilated.
And if all you have is Positron at PAX as your only source then you have no support for your case. None of official marketing or advertising mentioned incarnates. -
Quote:YesOriginally Posted by Gangrel_EU
And even if they wanted the "initial" part of the Incarnate system that came out, they would be limited to the 2nd tier of Alpha
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Quote:CORRECT! But saying "It ain't so!" does not disprove it, either.Originally Posted by Snow Globe
And Tony provided that. That wasn't enough for you.
Prove that it didn't say exactly what Tony provided. You are asking people to believe that one source, which you can't provide, disagrees with everything else that has been shown.
-Tony's source is faulty, so it adds nothing but false information.
The burden of proof that one source disagrees with everything else lies with you, not me. -
Quote:7 Feb 2011 is NOT PRE-PURCHASE. That was the official release. What we want is March 2010. When you stop trying to prove apples with oranges we'll see where the proof lies. (Hint: It lies NOWHERE, as yet, on either side. All anyone has offered is anecdotal evidence.)Originally Posted by Snow Globe
And Tony provided that. That wasn't enough for you.
Prove that it didn't say exactly what Tony provided. You are asking people to believe that one source, which you can't provide, disagrees with everything else that has been shown.
The burden of proof that one source disagrees with everything else lies with you, not me. -
Quote:I will look at what Tony provided and if it is, indeed a screenshot or cached copy of the actual order screen for the pre-purchase then I will consider it a done deal.Originally Posted by Snow Globe
And Tony provided that. That wasn't enough for you.
Prove that it didn't say exactly what Tony provided. You are asking people to believe that one source, which you can't provide, disagrees with everything else that has been shown.
The burden of proof that one source disagrees with everything else lies with you, not me. -
Quote:Prove It!Originally Posted by snow globe
the pre-orders/pre-purchases at the time had the exact same wording.
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Quote:That is NOT the source that is in question. I'm questioning the ORDER SCREEN AT THE PARAGON STORE! GOT THAT?Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Look at this video, (time index 5:55).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NT9O0HM2-QM
Here, I'll show it:
What does the pretty picture say? Issue 19: Incarnates. Got that? Good
At 6:40, Positron said we'd get a "taste" of the Incarnate System with Going Rogue. Not the full system, but a taste. His post here ( http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?p=3024907 ) said that it was going to be removed from Issue 18 / Going Rogue.
Like I said, you are trying to prove something without anything to back it up. You claim that you are calling for proof. That was given. If that isn't good enough, then you have to show any proof to the contrary. The burden of proof rests on your shoulders because you seem intent on denying the claim it wasn't included. So back up that claim.
No, I didn't THINK so. -
Quote:Not even YOU can prove a negative. Something can be proven or it can be disproven by proving something that excludes said thing. Posts, quotes, links to a source OTHER than the one in question does NOT prove or disprove the contents of the original. The best that could be done would be to point to a lack of evidence proving the affirmative. Even that does not prove or disprove it. It only points out that it is not proven.Originally Posted by Snow Globe
The pre-orders/pre-purchases at the time had the EXACT SAME WORDING. So unless you (or anyone else) can show ANY proof what so ever to refute the posts and archived store, it is time to move on from this point.
The proof that it wasn't included has been shown, if you want to deny it, then you have to provide proof that it was included.
Good luck with that.
I'M not CLAIMING it. I, MYSELF am calling for proof. -
Quote:All true. Like I said many pages ago, I'M not complaining. Nor am I in any way under the impression that I am not getting something that I should be. The discussion had turned into whether or not Incarnates were something that people paid for when they purchased Going Rogue. All I'm doing at this point is exploring whether anyone should have believed that it was. (pre-purchase and/or pre-order, whichever)Originally Posted by _ACFU_
Why is this even an issue? Even IF Incarnates were part of GR, can anyone say that they bought it with the expectation that they will still have access to Incarnates after they stopped paying the subscription?
Premium players are screwed? How so? Before Freedom if you stopped paying your monthly subscription you lost all access to the game. With Freedom you can continue to play. Granted you will have restrictions placed on your account, but if you are expecting to experience the game as you did before as a paying subscriber you are just kidding yourself.
I have told several of my friends who used to play about the changes comming with Freedom. Some will come back to check it out, and some don't care for the restrictions to a Premium account. That's ok. They weren't playing/paying before Freedom and they won't after. As for those who do come back, they will either play for free under the limitations of the account restrictions, or they will resubscribe. It's a no-lose situation for NCSoft. -
Quote:Cool, cool. I'm just concerned with anything that might cause them to RETHINK how it's currently set to make it even SLOWER.Originally Posted by ultrawatt
I dont really know if we have to worry about that, the time is already 1/3 slower than before. So, that kind of proves they slowed us down.
Back before i20 i believe it took me only 2:49 to get a someone to 50.
Not only was my build at the time WAY worse but my map was on its old, much less effective, set up.
I also had load times 20 in 30 out. So if i had had load times like that it would have added almost 40 minutes to my time now.
Also, MARTy was changed to not affect these farms already. -
Quote:Heh, quotes don't help either. All that matters (as far as I'm concerned) is the product description on the page you spent your money on.Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
Found posts with quotes from devs, trying to find the dev quotes.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...8&postcount=67
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...5&postcount=68
Woah, that thread derails into a talk about DC, shame that was a not so good mmo. -
Quote:Can we still not get on the same page? I'm not talking about what was released OR what your box says. I'm talking about pre-orders/pre-purchases and whatever was in the product description AT THAT TIME, when people could have potentially bought a product that was described as being different from the final product.Originally Posted by Snow Globe
The NCstore description of Going Rogue did not have any mention of the Incarnate System.
-other stuff you said
If you find a retail copy of Going Rogue and apply it to your account, you will get the following:
-and still more that, while all true, was not what I was talking about -
Quote:You know, no offense here, ultrawatt, (GJ, btw) but do you think that publicly stating such a short 1-50 time, here on the forums is a good way to not rub Posi's nose in it, MARTy notwithstanding? I know that they can datamine you at any time, and MARTy was designed to catch "too much, too fast" but even if it didn't in this case, might not these kind of posts raise Dev awareness just enough to prompt them to kick MARTy up a notch?Originally Posted by ultrawatt
mmk, went ahead had PLed someone 1-50 last night to see how the resent change effected everything.
Took 3:19. Exactly 14 arcs, 70 missions, of FIRE! (ID# 423253)
Load times were included, they had an average of 6 in 7 out. Which means there was about....15 minutes of load times i think. I honestly couldnt believe how fast they were.
Thats down from about 2 hours and 9.5 arcs.
I'm not saying that it will but its kinda like staring down a cop. We attract their interest at our own peril. -
Quote:Of course, there is always the FUTURE content that Premiums will never get (I suppose), as that should be.Originally Posted by Prodiguy
You bought Going Rogue, so you have access to all things DIRECTLY RELATED to Going Rogue itself- Allignment, Praetoria, the power sets, the zones. Incarnates are not related to Going Rogue in that way, the closest you could have had was a sneak peak at FUTURE content, which the Alpha Slot was intended to be. That was also removed before the launch of the game and was never stated as 100% going to happen. Alpha Slot is not part of Going Rogue.
And on the same coin, it never should be. There'd be no point to being a VIP if you could have everything VIPs do on a Premium account. Premium is not intended for you to drop from VIP and have the same gameplay. It's intended for you to be able to play, at a loss, without needing to pay. You will never get the same level of gameplay and ALL the functions that VIPs do. The Incarnate system is VIP only. That is a benefit of paying the fee. -
Quote:If he SAYS he is quoting the STORE then he is NOT referring to an informal discussion.Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
It doesnt, until he provides evidence of anything written in an actual advertisement, he is only referring to an informal discussion of bonus content that was not included at the request of the playerbase. unless he links to something to the contrary of he recollection of several posters here, there was nothing officially advertised about incarnates or the sneak peek being part of gr.
Well, you know, the store page is not up any longer, so a cached version or a printout is the only way anyone can prove that it advertised Incarnates. I'm just saying that it is a place to start, for those who have any kind of legitimate claim to having bought Incarnate access (Alpha).