AlienOne

DAMN, that was nice! Quite a bit dizzying to watch with the back and forth and back and forth, but still an awesome accomplishment!

I assume you softcapped your ranged defenses? It seemed you were attempting to get them to *always* used their ranged attacks...

I'd LOVE to see that with a Defender... I wish my TA/Archery could do something like that, but I don't believe that TA is strong enough to handle +4x8...

"Alien"

K, before I get into any critiquing, I gotta say that's a fantastic build for ANY human-former. You've got a lot of recharge (which is *almost* necessary for human-only builds), and you also have a lot of recovery built-in (also required when you have a lot of toggles running).

That said, the only way I can really "critique" a purple'd-out human-only build is to put it side by side with my own build and see what sort of differences there are. So, here we go:

1. Looking at defense, I find it interesting that your built-in fire/cold defense is double what mine is, which may have a significant impact on if we were to do some side-by-side +4x8 Demon tests. Other than that, our defense is almost the same across the board, with a couple exceptions: One, my psionic defense is a bit higher (yours is 9.8%, mine is 14%), and yours and my ranged and AoE defense totals seem to be "flipped." I have higher ranged defense, and you have higher AoE defense.

Other than those exceptions, our defense levels are extremely close.

2. Resistance-wise, you're got me beat in every category (without Eclipse), due to your choice of taking Penumbral Shield and Tough/Weave. After Eclipse vs. 4 or 5 enemies, however, we're both on the same playing field. I also find it interesting to note that (without Eclipse), your Fire/Cold resists are at 41%, while mine are at 11.7%--also a major difference between us both if we were to compare our builds vs. your enemy of choice, the Demons.

Resistance as a whole during the Post-Eclipse levels (as long as you can get it perma--and that of course, requires some major influence investments) just about negates having to get any other shields, which is why I don't have Penumbral Shield or Tough in my current human-only build. Both your and my Eclipse are slotted almost exactly the same, with what looks like a 4 second recharge difference between us both.

3. The largest disparity between our builds is our regeneration rates and endurance usage. This, I believe, stems from a *playstyle difference* between us both. You have slotted your Stygian Circle with a heal set, whereas I have slotted mine with an Endurance Mod set. So, you'll get a much higher heal off of fewer enemies than I will. Off of a single "arrested" enemy, you'll get almost a complete heal, while I would only get 80%. However, a mere 2 dead enemies will give me back almost all my health AND endurance, so the real difference lies in how long it takes us to down as many enemies as possible.

Neither way is wrong, it's just a different "area" that you'd prefer to concentrate in. I concentrated in endurance recovery from stygian circle, because I have a 2.43/per-second endurance usage rate with all 8 of my toggles running, whereas you have only a 1.82/per-second endurance usage rate with all 8 of your toggles running. The big difference here is my choice to have "Super Speed" running during missions (while you teleport around), and the fact that I also have all of the Leadership toggles (which cost quite a bit of endurance to run). I would think that your build would be slightly better than mine at soloing, whereas, a team might appreciate my Leadership a bit more.

4. Gratz on 172.5% Global Recharge (with Hasten)!!! That's awesome! That's *almost* perma-hasten... 180% is perma-hasten, so you've basically just about got it without any "outside help!" My global recharge is sitting at 160%, except when I decide to use the "increase attack speed" buff from my base, which gets me right at 180% for an hour.

5. Due to my leadership toggles, I have a higher "natural" ToHit and Damage buff than you do without Sunless Mire (Mine sits at 14.2% ToHit and 27.5% Damage, while yours is at 0% ToHit and 13% Damage). With Sunless Mire (vs 5 enemies), our totals go to 36.7% ToHit (mine) 22.5% ToHit (yours), and 83.7% Damage Buff (mine) 69.2% Damage Buff (yours).

Not huge, but it makes a bit of a difference.

It's also worth noting that my leadership toggles, although more expensive endurance-wise than what you have chosen to run, gives me much higher Status resistance for Confuse, Fear, Taunt, and Placate. You have a higher Immobilize protection/resistance, but I also have a 3.11 Immobilize status protection, so I don't see my dude immobilized much.


Overall, it's a fantastic build with no real "weakness" to speak of... Anyone trying to change the build (including myself) would be just trying to "tweak" it to their own playstyle and preferred power choices... You've got more natural resists (without Eclipse), as well as the fact that you concentrated on healing with Stygian Circle (as opposed to endurance recovery), so in the end, it appears (at least to me) that you've got a "solo-centric" build, whereas I have more of a "team-centric" build.

Good stuff!

Here's my build, by the way, if you wanted to see a side-by-side for yourself.

"Alien"

Sure you can! ....But it requires using inspirations.

That's exactly what I was asking for earlier. It's one thing to do +4x8 Demons, who have nothing but fire damage at their disposal, and it's another to do +4x8 Arachnos.

If he can do +4x8 Arachnos (using inspirations) with bosses in the mix, I'll be REALLY impressed, because I'm not sure if Vestige could handle that...

"Alien"

*EDIT*
Video's still processing.... Might have to give it about 20 min or so to view in HD...

I believe that answer is already pretty obvious, and not worth putting my time into... As I already stated earlier:

The test (as stated in the description on the video) was to see if I could take down +4x8 Arachnos mobs "using all the tools the devs have given us," short of using extra pets and Warburg nukes. One such tool the Devs have given us to help us survive during a fight is called an inspiration.

I highly recommend ANY toon to use them, and use them as often as you need to. They drop quite regularly, and skilled use of them has not been labeled an "exploit" by the devs as of yet...

"Alien"

I think that's exactly why Bill Z is proposing these changes.... It's *supposed* to feel a little more like a scrapper (not a tank), but without the "crits"...

"Alien"

You are *almost* contradicting yourself there. While I would admit there is a *more* effective way to play Kheldians (damage-wise) by play tri-form, I would definitely NOT say there is only ONE effective way. I realize you said "ONE most effective way", but I wanted to clarify that, because that statement could be easily misunderstood that playing bi-form or human-only is "completely ineffective" because there is only "one" most effective way to play a Kheldian.

Sure. And I think the entire Kheldian community has already agreed on this (you can find where I've stated as such in my human-only guide)... For a NEW Kheldian, the general consensus is ALWAYS "play tri-form first," as that provides the easiest, most complete Kheldian experience.

What I definitely do NOT want to see is the devs concentrating so much on "YOU GOTTA PLAY THE FORMS" that it completely takes away the viability of having several different ways to play a Kheldian.

"Alien"

YES!

"Alien"

Because this is exactly what I've been saying all along... I may not be as thorough or as much "politically correct" in my presentation, but I've always said that the forms shouldn't be considered "necessary" in order to survive with this AT. Is it preventing one from reaching their "full potential?" Yes. Just as not choosing a specific 2ndary power like "Quickness" from the SR set would be preventing you from having that 20% extra global recharge, not picking the dwarf form would be preventing you from having that extra HP buff and "emergency-oh-crap-I'm-gonna-die" toggle. But is it gimping you? Is it absolutely necessary? I think not.

As Bill Z Bubba noted, the devs have chosen to make these form changes as toggles you pick as you level up. If they were supposed to be considered "completely integrated" into the *Kheldian experience*, they would have been something you got at level 1 to use as you leveled up.

I believe because of the aforementioned *fact*, that is why having different forms on a Kheldian (tri, bi, human) is considered "optional" and ultimately a "playstyle choice."

Is having a human-form Kheldian "not reaching your full potential?" Sure. Anyone I think could admit to that.

But, is nerfing it OR speaking out against a buff for it just because one might think that "if you don't play tri-form you're WRONG" the right way to go about things?

I would say the answer for that would be a "hell no."

Obviously, I'm not saying anyone is speaking out against it, so I'm not attacking anyone (and also think the fact that I have to state something like this in my posts because of the thin-skinned people out there is laughable)... I just feel that a point needs to be made (if or when Devs read this thread) that there ARE those of us out here who LIKE to play human-only builds, and actually quite enjoy them. I think voting for a "nerf" or changes to human-only builds just because you may think that playing a tri-former is the ONLY way to play is just BS.

Again, I'm not advocating changes to tri-formers. I'm not saying human-form Warshades should ALSO get buffed with this proposed change. I'm not saying that "the Dev's shouldn't change anything" or "leave it as is!"

What I AM doing is merely making a point (specifically to the Devs that may read this) that if there are considerations for changes to Khelds, that there needs to be a complete consideration given for ALL the Kheldian players out there, and how making any changes would affect them--not JUST the tri-former Kheldians out there.

Now, all that said, I will also say that I can't find anything wrong with what Bill Z stated in the OP... There IS a huge difference between PB and WS gameplay, and I don't think buffing the human-form damage would really negatively affect our tri's, bi's, OR human-only Kheldian communities.

"Alien"

Again, QFT.

In fact, I would go as far to say that if "tri-forming" WAS the intent of the developers (and no other way to play for Kheldians, thus reducing options for ways to viably play), then there would be absolutely no reason for any of the toggle-type powers in the secondaries of both the WS and the PB. The fact that there ARE so many powers, both toggle AND activate-able that do NOT directly support the forms (nor make them more viable), suggests that the original intent of the design was, in fact, to allow for more build options--which supports both my previous points and the Geko interview, which you seem to so hastily throw out. I find it interesting that if people didn't like a developer or a particular design or interview BY that developer, they immediately throw out anything they say or do as "oh, that doesn't count."

Reminds me of several debates on these forums... "We'll dismiss his opinion because we don't like him" or "because his area of expertise doesn't match ours." Absolutely juvenile.

To me, it makes no sense at all (both game-play AND business-wise) to go BACKWARDS in design to reduce playstyle options for gamers.

That's just bad business. no matter WHAT game you play.

"Alien"

QFT.

"Alien"

Yeah, but you were expecting me to be the first "scrapperlock" WS to pop in this thread, weren't 'ya?

Scrapperlock vs. Malta!

Really?

Scrapperlock vs. "Numberless" Freaks!

I've thought that many times while playing on several of my toons, but I tend to keep it as a "thought" rather than something "voiced," as it usually offends someone on the team when I make a comment like that...lol

Scrapperlock! (Yes, listening to calming music like OceanLab while in "scrapperlock" IS a bit weird...haha!)

Some of the most fun I've had recently in-game was on a "completed" LGTF where all but me and 1 other dude had quit, and we say, "What the heck? Why don't we just clear this mish ourselves?"

Fun times.

"Alien"

Well, any sort of change which may affect current playstyles will most assuredly upset some people just thinking about it, as that may be (as in my case) the main character they prefer to play on... So, anything majorly "gimping" it further would be most unwelcome--people would prefer to continue "as is" than *possibly* getting hit with the "nerf bat."

That said, forum rep is way, way, way, way, waaaaaaaay overrated. The ones who give negative/positive rep obviously think it has some bearing, or they wouldn't do it. But, for the most part, it shouldn't affect you at all. Hell, if you think your rep comments are bad, we should compare sometime. Some of the ones sent to me would be most unwelcome in any sort of civilized, mature adult setting... However, this is the "interwebz." People can say anything or be whoever they want to on here. Therefore, their opinion on me, my life, my viewpoints, my playstyle, or my spelling means jack %$#^ to me.

If they want to have a civilized debate on any in-game issue with me without resorting to verbally dissing my military service, my relatives, where I was born, my education, or anything else of that nature, I'll be more than willing to discuss it with them. In public. On the forums.

The rest of the cowards can hide behind the rep system if it makes them feel better about themselves.

"Alien"

Looks like someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed today...

If you'd actually READ the thread (as you claim), you'd see that I A.G.R.E.E. with his proposed changes. Therefore, I have NO REASON WHATSOEVER to "argue." Period.

The only thing I wanted to point out was that it's not a "correct view" to try and compare Kheldians to other archetypes in a "are they as good" point of view, when in fact, they are not comparable.

Which Bill Z Bubba already noted.

Sooo.... Is there anything constructive you can add to this thread? At all?

"Constructive" can also include something that "lightens the mood" (so to speak), so that widens your options a bit.

Anything?

No?

kthnxbai.

"Alien"