Zenyth

You do realize I-13 was three-ish years ago.

Yeah, they buffed us...but we're by no means "fixed" yet. I'm not trying to be ungrateful here, I'm just trying to make sure they don't call it "done" for another 3 to 4 years. We shouldn't settle for what we've got so far, because its a job not finished yet. Not only that, but its a buff that's caused other problems to crop up.

So am I glad we got a buff? Definitely, thank you Arbiter Hawk. Just don't run off yet, we've got other problems that could still use some attention. You might also talk to us a little more so we can all be on the same page for this. Also would let us know you ARE still keeping an eye on us...so...yeah...talk to us please.

Joe, I love ya, but I dont know how many times we can say this...it has to sink in...

Rage-ifying Build-up was not a suggestion to fix ALL our damage. It was a suggestion to make it more valuable in our forms. There simply will not be a single fix that fixes everything. Thats just not possible. The change to make build up, Inner Light IS good...its good because it makes it more useful for Nova and Dwarf. Its not ALL thats needed though. Please stop acting like the suggestion was ever intended to be a one stop fix for all things PB damage...please...

I still stand by pulsar and Incandescent strike need to be either stun or hold...not one of each. Pulsar should still be mag 3, but I want them to work together rather than against each other...ill suck it up if its mag 2 and chance of mag 1 as long as they both are the same mez type.

As for Photon Seekers, I'm still thinking something like Hell on Earth wouldn't be horrible here...either a self buff that pops off photon seekers ever couple seconds that would zip off, explode, and hey, maybe even keep the buffsplosion on them...It'd give us a little more consistent damage, another buff, for groups as well as ourselves. Sorta a blast button we dont have to hit.

Im not against it, but I would worry that they'd change/increase the animation time and probably lower the healing oomph out of it. Our reconstruction clone really does provide us a good chunk of our survivability. Id be leery of changes just because its one of the few powers ive got no complaints about.

I don't know, I really just don't think very many of our powers are worth firing off THAT quickly. Especially at the cost of your maximum endurance for a bit.

Double lightform/eclipse? Like we need more wasted res...

Double inner light/quad mire? See previous response, replace "res" with "dmg"

Double Photon seekers/One more Fluffy? Photon seekers knocks back so double photon isnt really that useful considering their range, the extra fluffy might be nice, but you're already gonna have a couple out, is the maxend drain worth the extra for a short while longer?

Really, just don't find much in our sets worth taking Burnout over...same in the power pools, double hasten might be alright, but again not sure its worth that reduction in your max end. Im sure some AT's will find a use for it, im just not sure we're one of them.

It still had awesome music at least...

You shouldn't though.

You shouldn't feel guilty for asking for your AT to make sense.

We're intended to switch forms, that toggles off everything repeatedly. Toggle suppression just makes sense if we're intended to be switching forms regularly. If forms speed up their animation times, thats even more of an incentive to go switching into them, making everything toggle off even more. If its possible, suppression would allow us to switch forms regularly without fear of getting mauled the minute we drop to human because all our defense is turned off. It just makes sense...

I cant say much for pet survivability, I play a PB, my pets are so emo they kill themselves...but having the pet spawn regardless if the corpse fades out for WS's is definitely something that just makes sense.

We have too much resistance, perma eclipse and soon to be perma lightform provide a LARGE chunk of resistance. Our shields provide a pretty good chunk of resistance too. So does our inherent. In the right (Or wrong depending on your point of view) circumstances you're looking at 30-40% resistance that's just sitting there, not doing anything. Changing some of that out for something else just makes sense. Making the shields defense toggles is a simple and elegant solution. You could change the inherent to provide defense instead, another simple solution. It just makes sense...

No one should feel bad about wanting their AT to make sense...not Scrappers, not Brutes, not Defenders, not Corruptors, not anyone. The only real difference is the devs agree that those AT's should make sense, but Khelds? Well, you've seen what Grey_Pilgrim has passed on from Arbiter Hawk...and some of that just doesn't make sense...

Well, that's just it. I'm not wanting to "nerf" our resistance...not really anyways...I'm just wanting to turn the HUGE amount of excess we have into something else. Defense, Regen, SOMETHING...

It's been suggested before, turn our shields into defense rather than resists. At the lower levels it helps with the lack of mez prot because the mez's just aren't HITTING as often, at the higher levels it doesn't have us squished up against the resist cap from our Tier 9's, our inherent, our shields, and any buffer's in the party who happen to have taken a resistance buffing set. Shining for Ranged or Smash/Lethal. Thermal for AoE or Fire/Cold. Quantum for Melee or Energy/Negative. We lose 22.5% resistance (Unenhanced) gain 7-12% defense instead. Lightform's only getting us to 52.5% (Again unenhanced). If the idea someone else had went through to lower the resistance on lightform but gain Psi also went through...that'd be about 35% resists to all...unenhanced so that'd go up. 7-12% defense, with 35% resist, and gaining 10% resist from the offensives on our team is gonna give our resistance cap some breathing room to accomodate not only resist buffs from our inherent, but also from teammates. It makes the shields useful, keeps dwarf's "purpose" (resisty, high HP, tank) helps lower level kheldians, and doesnt really cost us anything because we didn't "lose" anything, it just shifted things around a bit, either gaining psi at a slight loss from other resistance types, or gaining defense instead. Overall, we're a stronger AT for it because we're layering our protection. Potentially OP? Yeah a bit, but not to such a degree that we're gonna start soloing Incarnate trials anytime soon.

Admittedly? Thats from a Peacebringer's perspective, I can't really judge what would be required out of Warshade's. Id say Eclipse should have to have a smaller target limit put in place, and I know WS's would have a hissy over such a suggestion, but sometimes you gotta give an inch to gain a mile. Besides, with the shields becoming defense that's three less LotG fillers you have to take from power pools...

Traitor!

I don't know though. On the one hand, Arachnos got rated, we really should get rated. On the other, I can understand the ?'s because we are intended to be a little more malleable than everyone else. They could at least fix the description to take out the implication that we don't get anything from teaming with other kheld's anymore.

I don't even really get how its holding us back!

I mean, once I21 goes live I'll cap my own resistances (sans Psi anyways), so the 10% I get from the inherent per offensive AT isn't really going to be doing anything for me; and Warshades have been enjoying Eclipse self-capped for years now.

My damage wont be capped, but Warshades are pretty consistently bumping their noggins against the damage cap from the way they talk, so for them that's another part of the inherent that they aren't really getting much out of.

Do we really need to talk about the mez prot? Really? To be honest, we do because its the exact opposite of the other two. In their cases they're piling more on top of whats already topped off, but in the mez prots case its just so little that it might as well not even be there. If you've got enough controllers/dominators to make the mez prot worth it, nothings attacking you anyway because its all locked down pretty hardcore.

For the resistance and damage portions of our inherent it looks like a lot, but in several cases we're already THERE...and its a hard cap, so its not like we're even getting reduced benefit out of it.

Lets be honest, most of what I'm pointing out here is probably more likely to get us NERFED...which should be fairly ridiculous on its own considering where we're at, but its kinda what we need. At least HALF of what we need anyways...We DO need to lose some of the resistance we've got, we need some of our +dmg% effects to be rolled into the powers naturally, we need some of what we DO have to be shuffled a bit with OTHER forms of effects. It can't just be straight cuts, and it can't just be ignoring yet more "wonk" in our powers.

I've stated several times in the past that all I really want is for my AT to make sense. I dont think we need a "back to the drawing board" overhaul, but I do believe its gonna take more than just lowering some cooldowns, and calling it a day. They're gonna have to directly play with some numbers, change some abilities focus, and skirt the cottage rule fairly hard (if not break it in some places). We need a fairly extensive tune-up, PB's more than WS's; but we both suffer from some of the same problems, even if they're coming from different sources.

And thats kinda our problem...they're just so deathly afraid that any tweaks are going to turn us into Scrutfendinator's...even the smallest ones.

My real question is, would making khelds even slightly "OP" really be THAT bad? Seriously, look at what brutes, and defenders, and controllers, and all these other AT's can MANAGE. Ive got a pair of friends, ones a DM/Invuln brute, the other plays a widow. They've both got billions invested into their builds, between the two of them they can all but DUO the lambda trial (They have trouble making the timer on Marauder). The brute's had me tag along for him soloing TF's, Ive even made a really funny thread about killing Praetorian Duray in the Sutter TF with a rock because he wanted to solo the thing and I got lucky enough to land the last 45 damage on him.

If its okay for them, why isn't it okay for me?

I'm not trying to demand I be THAT powerful...I'm just saying that there's a fairly large spectrum of power level to choose from up there. You don't have to worry about things being OP until PB's start soloing incarnate trials.

Really, letting certain powers carry over would just be good in general.

Dwarf has a slight lack of damage...Dwarf using radiant strike and Incandescent strike? No more slight lack.

Nova with even more AoE's? Whole attack chain of nothing but AoE's. It'd be hillarious...possibly overpowered, but hillarious...

The problem is I really doubt they can single powers out like that. Its either "useable in forms" or not. Theres no "useable in dwarf" or "useable in nova", just one "useable in forms" category. Which is unfortunate, because forms with the added utility of various clicks and the like would be a fairly large boost for us.

I dont think they can raise those individually like that. Has to be the same cap for the whole character.

It's spread a bit too thin that way. The mag 3 isn't that profound, it's a little, but JUST a little. I don't know about anyone else, but I DO have the shields, and I only toggle what I know I'll need for the groups I'm fighting. Typically shining and quantum...switching it for thermal if I know the group has alot of fire/cold. That would leave me at mag 2 or mag 1 most of the time. The boosted mez prot by the team from lightform would help, but I don't think it really needs all that shuffling and spreading about...

Witch! Burn the witch!

Recovery/end-drain resistance would be nice *Cough*

I suggested earlier that Nova and Dwarf should have a buff that required some ramp up time (Either caused by the forms attacks or maybe just from time being switched in) but would last between form switches that I feel the need to advertise again. Dont know what it'd be, but something similar to the purpose of the form in question is probably best. At the time I figured something like fiery embrace but with energy for nova and defense for dwarf, but anything damage/protection oriented would work. Recharge and Regen maybe, or that debuff resistance we're talking about...just as long as its not just more +dmg% and resistance...

It'd not only encourage taking the forms, but make them valuable to have for more than just the form they grant. SYNERGY! Ive preached it before, ill preach it again.

Id love to hear it too...but until they talk to us, we aren't gonna know.

At the moment we know Arbiter Hawk is who was working on these particular changes via Grey Pilgrim. We know that he made a post to the closed beta forums stating he wasn't changing anything else until he saw how these changes played out. So I have no expectations on anything changing in the space of time between now and when I21 goes live...however, the changes that are coming in I21 are going to cause some problems of their own, and we've discussed that, as well as several problems still left on the table.

Id absolutely love to have a chat with Hawk, or Synapse, or Black Scorpion, or whoever on the devs side of things wants to have one on the state of the Kheldian AT's, their thoughts and ideas on them, and on our MANY discussions prior on what is/isnt a problem and how we'd fix them. If nothing else just knowing they're there and paying attention is an improvement over where we are right now. Unfortunately surprise changes, while nice, dont really tell us that they're paying attention. If anything its had the opposite effect here. After the surprise wore off, we started seeing some fairly large holes in the "fix", which we've already discussed extensively in this thread.

I really just think they need to talk to us. Im biased of course, but I think they need to tell us their intent, where they want to take things, what they see as problems, what they would like to do to fix them, etc, etc... So the balls in their court right now, all we can do is wait and hope they do something with it.

EDIT: And looking up, Grey Pilgrim, I appreciate you talking to him and passing things along; but I also think it'd be better if he wasn't trying to filter these things down through you. Just my opinion there, ill take it how I can get it, but it'd be alot easier if he was doing his own talking. We dont bite...much.

Very...but then you ruined it. NO SOUP FOR YOU!

Maybe, but if we just shut up about it then we do ourselves a disservice in making sure they know how we feel. Squeaky wheel gets the grease after all...though I will admit at this point im just trying to keep it bumped on the off chance the devs decide to reply. Not much else that really needs saying on the players part.

I just want them to actually make some LOGICAL decisions with the AT. Im SELF CAPPING my resistance, and yet my inherent is supposed to give me 10% MORE resistance PER Offensive AT in my group...the unique enhancement shown gives me MORE resistance. That is a great big giant WASTE. Its a great big giant waste before we even look at our inherent or the IO or even DWARF FORM. We are getting TOO MUCH RESISTANCE.

Im not asking for PB's to be miniature /WP or to be hauling Mind link around all the time, I just want the AT to MAKE SENSE. There are so many counterproductive choices that have been made for them. Their best attacks are melee, so MOST of their melee AoE's are gonna do knockback. That makes no sense. The whole "We don't want to change it to Knockdown because they'd bring more AoE to bear than SS" is downright RIDICULOUS. Up until this patch solar flare required you to be on the ground...this was given to a FLYING AT, who could teleport in dwarf form. Its counterintuitive decisions like these that I want to see changed.

Is that going to make PB's more powerful? Yes, I'm not gonna deny that its gonna make them VERY powerful, simply because they've got a bunch of tools to draw from, if you take out all the ideas working against each other they're gonna improve ALOT...and thats what I want, I do want my PB to improve. Im not asking to be OP here, im just asking for my AT to not be its own worst enemy.

Well at first glance it all DOES look like good changes, and they aren't BAD changes; but then you start thinking about caps, and builds, and how you're already bumping against them...and all the other things that could use changing, and then you talk about it, and then you only get silence in return, and then you're getting grumpy, and here we are...grumpy squidlobsters...grumpy grumpy squidlobsters...

Then someone throws fuel on the fire, and the grump ratchets up a couple notches on the Grump-O-Meter.

At this point, I just want some confirmation that Arbiter Hawk is listening to us, and that they aren't going to just shove this back on the backburner (again) because they've given their nod to fixing us for the next three to four years or so.

Okay, first off, with the latest changes Human form needs more resists like it needs a hole in the head. So Im giving that one a big "NO! Bad Paragon!" on that one. Give us something else...anything else really, how bout some defense? Or Recovery? Or just about anything BUT resist. We don't need resist...really we don't...

Nova, more damage, our damage cap is 300%, nova grants 45%, we'll potentially be able to stack inner light...at least twice, so around 56%-57% from that...and then we're getting 20% from every defensive AT we've got on our team. Thats not counting any people running assault, or fulcrum shifts, or fortitudes, etc...so we're skirting the damage cap fairly close too (Warshades are banging their heads against it). Right now theres shift times that'll keep the stacking of inner light down, but if/when they do/should lower them...well, right now its 3 seconds every 30, if it stacks that'll go down, if shift goes down it loses alot of the annoyance factor for keeping it running.

Dwarf...eh, more HP is more HP...but we cap off essence boost don't we? I don't recall the exact max HP for us, I just know essence boost good, and use it..heh

Anyways...on to a serious point.

We're doing alot of grumbling and griping right now, and rightfully so, more wonky decisions for a wonky AT that we've been claiming has had wonky decisions for years now. I do however want to make it clear, that I do appreciate Paragon actually making some attempts at this, I really do...I just definitely want them to get it right, and I really wish they'd talk to us, bounce ideas off us, tell us why our ideas may or may not work...

As opposed to the 7 year joke they've been playing on Khelds?

To be perfectly honest, im surprised and a bit disappointed that we haven't gotten anything but Zwillinger's squid picture in here. I mean, there's only one thread on the discussion forum right now with more posts...and that's the stickied level bump thread.

I think that says something.

I really don't imagine that will stay that way...get low, "crash" upwards to 50%?

heh, yeah no...

Give the forms a "ramp up" time, and benefit...Nova attacks buff the PB's damage with every attack, by adding fiery embrace-ish energy damage boosts, stacks X many times, lasts Y many seconds. Dwarf attacks increase the PB's defense, adding a small amount of defense or regen (just not resistance, we got too much of that already) with each attack, again stacks only X many times and lasts Y many seconds...

The thing that makes this all "work" is that those buffs will ALSO carry over into the other forms, but it takes time to "ramp up". It encourages taking the forms because they're useful for not only the "job they do", but also because they help the others. Need to be tanky but want some damage, spend some time in nova, build up that bonus energy charge, drop to dwarf, while it lasts your dwarf has a damage boost. Its a mechanic that would encourage form switching, keeping all the forms not only viable, but useful. Admittedly, this will fit MY playstyle best, and wont really "work" until we get the faster animation time on the form shifts. It is however in line with what we've seen out of the devs with new powersets recently. Its a gimmick, akin to the new combo stat on Street Justice, or disintegrate on beam rifle...or heck, just the combo stuff out of dual blades.

I still believe we need to change out some of our resists somewhere (From the inherent, shields to defense, etc). I still think Pulsar needs to be mag 3, and Solar Flare needs to be KD, but if they want to keep the forms valuable, this would be a good way to do it.

And id like to argue that if its already dead it cant mez you...

Technically its true, but I was trying to be precise...

It benefits us in not having to chase enemies down because half of our abilities are designed for close range. Matter of fact, lets take a look at our primary...

Five Powers are "ranged" Gleaming bolt, glinting eye, gleaming blast, Luminous Detonation, and Proton Scatter. Five are "close", Radiant Strike, Incandescent Strike, Pulsar (PBAoE), Dawn Strike (Nother PBAoE), Solar Flare (Yet more PBAoE), and Photon Seekers (So dumb they might as well be PBAoE). Of all those powers three of the four PBAoE's knockback, all at a rate of 50% or greater, only two of the ranged ones do (Luminous Detonation at 50%, Gleaming Blast at 10%). So we're kinda directly being discouraged from using the PBAoE thanks to the knockback, but they're also some of our best powers...and includes one of our few mez tools. However, it also discourages the use of our OTHER mez tool (And strongest single target attack) in Incandescent strike since we're having to chase down all the guys we just sent flying all over the place because its melee.

Something to keep in mind though is that changing the knockback to knockdown isnt just a benefit to us, it benefits our GROUP (Something our inherent encourages us to you know...do) in that we aren't throwing enemies all willy nilly, making THEM chase down enemies to use THEIR attacks.

I dont buy the "It might be overpowered" line...I dont buy it at all...

Is the annoyance factor a valid arguement? Yes, yes it is. Half of our abilities are designed for up close combat, half aren't. Should one side suffer? No, but people who like knockback can get it back just by devoting one slot in the powers with it to a knockback enhancement. People who dont want knockback cant devote an enhancement slot to removing it. I wish we could make everyone happy, but unless we make doubles of every power, one with knockback, one with knockdown, somebody isnt gonna be happy...and I highly doubt we'll get mirrors of all the powers...

PB's get mag 3 protection from light form, so about one holds worth, give or take. It's a bit, but just a bit.

WS's still only get mez prot in lobster.