Aett_Thorn

[Veruca Salt]

But I want it NOW!!!

[/Veruca Salt]

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Tankers, as a whole, do better than average, and this includes Ice Melee. My focus is on those AT's who, as a group, underperform.

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Sooooo, according to your data mining, which ATs underperform?

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Yeah missed that the first time. I'd like to know too. Pretty please Castle dear. *bats eyelashes*

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The odd part is, if you believe the defiance changes that he's working on, Blasters underperform tankers.

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Goes against everything I've seen in the game. I've seen /Stone tankers out control me, and most every other tanker secondary can out-damage me. Based on my experiences in the game, I don't get how the above is true at all. The mathematical experiments we've run in versions of Tundara's thread don't back it up either.

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The problem with most mathematical experiments I see here in the forums is that they are measuring the extremities of performance. The datamining I do shows how players are actually performing in the "reality" of the game. The two are related, but there is often a vast gulf between what a set is capable of and what it is typically asked to do in gameplay.

Edit: Also, the quote you referred to is across all AT/Powerset combinations. */Ice outperforms many other AT/Powerset combinations.

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I hope that a /ice tank performs better than a mind/emp controller :P

how well does the /ice tank perform to other tankers?

that is the question.

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apparently we're never at the top, and never at the bottom. However, I'd have to say that we're probably towards the bottom for most of our careers.

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I shall, again, state that Ice Patch is skewing their analysis of the matter, as it is a permanent control as opposed to the four second knockdown that Fault provides.

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The "control" from Ice melee comes fro Frozen Aura. Ice Patch is a nice bonus power that "may" remove 5 enemies from a fight temporarily. Just because it has 5 enemies on it does not mean that they will stay or that they cannot attack. Enemies do stand up and fire an attack and enemies do run off of the ice patch.

Tremor does knock down ten enemies and Fault does knock down ten enemies. Fault may stun then as well, and with slotting and recharge bonuses, it may stack.

What I would like for the set is more damage, because GIS does not compare, not even remotely close, to other tanker sets high damage attack. Frozen Touch I wish was burst damage. I wish it was a mag 4 like other sets get as well, or at least a percent to become a mag 4, similar to Total Focus. (not the damage, just the %for mag 4)

And Frozen Aura should be made some sort of AoE damage power. I would be happy with making it like Combustion. Or a Cold damage toggle. (Blazing Aura anyone?)

Adjust GIS and(/or) FT. Add AoE damage to FA.

Pyre mastery does more damage than Ice Melee.

I would like to not rely on Ice Patch/Burn for my damage.

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Total Focus, in all its incarnations except Dominators', is mag four. I agree that Freezing Touch would be made an amazingly good power if it were mag 4, as suddenly you could quite easily perma-hold two bosses.

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But to do this, you'd be giving up slotting one of your most damaging attacks. If you're going to say that slotting SS for control is a waste because it lowers your damage to do so, you have to do the same for FT. The control is a secondary aspect of the power, especially for Ice Melee, since it needs all the damage it can get.

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A_C: here's my point:

Seismic Smash does much more damage than FT and can hold a boss in one hit. In fact, it does so much more damage than FT, that it can do this: be slotted for control and STILL do more damage than FT

SS: 158.38 smashing damage
FT: 6 * 12.46 damage (74.76 total)

FT 3-slotted for damage: 146.53 damage

So, even if you slot SS for control, you get much better control than FT, and still do more damage with each application. Doesn't that strike you as odd?

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Yes. Compared in a vacuum, of course. I suppose Seismic Smash is the "Total Focus", compared to Freezing Touch's "Shocking Grasp". It does both less damage, less burst mez, and is of a DoT nature. The difference is between the sets themselves, and as a developer, you must balance each set to each other. I, again, think they made an error somewhere along the lines, and the fixes to Ice Melee are numerous and wholly dependent on the desires of each poster making the suggestion; unfortunately, what will actually be implemented is entirely dependent on how much time Castle has. He's already said that, if he has time, he could try to look at Ice Melee, which tells me it's on his "list" of things he'd like to get around to. I'm no more happy about this than you are, because Stalkers are in the same boat. Or so we think, because Castle's never actually bothered commenting in our neck of the woods.

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I agree that it's a set-to-set comparison, not a power-to-power comparison. But in every example I've seen, both in-game with other tankers, or mathematical tests on the forums, Stone Melee is pretty good on control, and beats us in damage, on a set-to-set comparison.

I mean, if we were to compare the set power by power (so tier 1 vs tier 1, tier 2 vs tier 2), I'd bet all the money in my bank account that SM would come out ahead on a vast majority of them.

I mean, if you compare Ice's Tier 8 power to Stone's tier 3 power, Stone comes out ahead.

I know that looking at it power-to-power is not the way to go, since we need to balance based on whole sets, but something about this just seems wrong when you compare my (although obviously subjective) experiences in the game to what Castle is telling us.

A_C: here's my point:

Seismic Smash does much more damage than FT and can hold a boss in one hit. In fact, it does so much more damage than FT, that it can do this: be slotted for control and STILL do more damage than FT

SS: 158.38 smashing damage
FT: 6 * 12.46 damage (74.76 total)

FT 3-slotted for damage: 146.53 damage

So, even if you slot SS for control, you get much better control than FT, and still do more damage with each application. Doesn't that strike you as odd?

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It has a strong slow that will keep the enemy in the patch, though.

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Well, I know I wouldn't consider a 0.45 second slow effect to be 'strong.' In fact, I didn't even know it existed until you mentioned it and I went to check.

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Then it would need to be slotted for accuracies, -recharge and hold duration, which would destroy its ability to solo efficiently. If people are truly slotting Seismic Smash as a control power, then more power to them. Ice Melee is still going to be controlling more and better, judging from what I've seen.

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Honestly, I couldn't get a boss even close to perma-held with Frozen Touch until I paired it with the ancillary power pool hold. I slotted FT for damage, because that's what I needed. The hold was a byproduct. I see most people slot that way, actually. So you've got pretty similar slotting between SS and FT. Except, SS can hold a boss in one app, while FT would need two. And SS would still do more damage for the same slotting.

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If a set has a high degree of mitigation, it will usually end up with a low level of damage to balance it.

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I agree with this, I really do. Except, without the tier nine (which even Castle says not many /Ice tanks take), we don't win on control. We win on control efficiency. Stone's controls can hit up to ten. Ice Patch can hit 5. So while it is more permanent, it is not necessarily 'more' control.

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Ice Melee, undoubtedly, has a high degree of mitigation potential. Arguably more than Stone, in an AoE.

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I would definitely argue the other way on this one. I think Stone is very comparable to Ice Melee in effective control.

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my only losses were in SG v SG events and my 1 on 1 against Pohsyb's Ill/Kin Controller.

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/em flex

\o(^_^)o/

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Get back in your box!

Edit -> But hi, pohsyb

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Also, SS can one shot hold a boss, and be perma if slotted that way.

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I think you meant SM there.

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SS = Seismic Smash

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I think the point is the fact that Ice Patch can do that at all times. While granted, it's only five targets, that's five targets that can essentially be permanently removed from the fight.

As for Stone, while yes, Seismic Smash can remove a boss from the fight temporarily, Freezing Touch can remove one permanently, if given a chance to stack (if my mental math is correct). It's also able to be selected some ten levels before Seismic Smash, which all factors into the Developer Datamining, as shown by Castle's words above.

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Ummm...as was pointed out, SS can take a boss out of the fight permanently (while doing more damage than FT) if slotted for it. FT cannot, as it is lower mag, and the duration is not long enough to keep a permanent hold on most bosses.

_Castle_, first off, thank you for posting on this matter. I do appreciate it.

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Ice Melee does well at all power levels -- it's never the worst, and never the best. Datamining shows that the points it does worst is in the 38-45 range,

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I'd really like to know, if I could, in what level ranges it does the best amongst itself. Not necessarily the best among the sets, but if it's never the best, and never the worst, I'd like to make sure it's not second worst the entire game except levels 1-10 or something like that.

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Tankers, as a whole, do better than average

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I'd agree with this, from playing as or with many tankers. But this:

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and this includes Ice Melee.

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Goes against everything I've seen in the game. I've seen /Stone tankers out control me, and most every other tanker secondary can out-damage me. Based on my experiences in the game, I don't get how the above is true at all. The mathematical experiments we've run in versions of Tundara's thread don't back it up either.

Again, I thank you for your responses, which you were certainly under no obligation to give, but what you're saying seems to go against the opinions and experiences of most people who play /Ice Melee.

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Based on what I've read, the reason why Ice Melee was originally designed (for control) has either been diminished or usurped (by Stone for example). I see, overall, the set needs to be improved, though I am still unclear about the specific details.

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It's a long story (as can be evidenced by the three long threads on the topic) but it boils down to this:

Many /Ice tankers do not feel that they have enough control in their secondary to balance out the lack of damage the set offers. When compared with sets like Stone Melee, SM gets a similar level of control, with higher endurance costs and much higher damage. Ice melee has been relegated to the control 'efficient' set, not necessarily the control set. When you look at the sets for control, you see that a large portion of Ice/'s control comes from Frozen Aura, a power that many feel is unusable because of the nature of the effect.

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I always think of what was done with "Healing Flames" when I think that nothing will be done with tankers. I dont think that the devs are completely done with tankers...it's just that other matters are a higher priority. Take a break if need be, but keep on tankin'.

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Well, my problem with this is that the Devs seem to me to be taking a very piecemeal look at tankers. What we need is a good, thorough look (and I know I just heard Tundara, gWrath, and Golden_Ace groan) at the AT as a whole. Why do I think this? Because they seem to do one thing to one set, then disappear for a few months, then come back and fix one more thing, then disappear again.

So by that process, it could take a long time to get changes to all the sets I think need them. I think that if the Devs could take a look at the balance between all of the sets, and figure out what they want from the tanker AT, it would be a lot better.

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Maybe it's on their list?

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This is actually the last we've heard from them on the matter, pretty much. And this is after several months of talking amongst ourselves and PMing them.

And yes, we know that they have other things going on, but in reality, it's not like we sprung this one them. I know that I've seen Ice Melee threads for about 3 years now, and it's deficiencies. Frozen Aura threads and changes for about the same amount of time. It should have been 'on their list' for a long time now. That it hasn't graduated from that list in all this time is a big problem in my eyes.

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Besides ... who else can I talk fashion with (for hours at a time)?

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Well, you can try with me, but be forewarned, my idea of good fashion is a t-shirt, jeans and sandals. Underwear, while nice, is not mandatory.

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Maybe we need a devil's advocate, or even just a troll that argues with us. Because right now, it's pretty much all of us saying "yup, it needs a'changin'."



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One of my current new projects is an Ice/Ice tanker. And I have never been accused of being shy...

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Shy, no. Balanced against other secondaries, especially in the high levels, no.

Tundara, you're at the point I reached a few months back. The "I'm sorry that despite all the good points we've made, nothing got done" phase. The truth is, it's not your fault. You've done a great job of herding cats here, and don't have anything to apologize for. It's not your fault.

Now, you know I respect you, and know that I feel you're doing a great job on trying to get changes for Ice Melee that are, quite frankly, needed for the set. That said, I do want to point out that a few of your conclusions I do not feel are correct, if I may.

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It seems like without a constant whip the other Ice Melee tanks are content to sit silent. I'm very disappointed.

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I think this is disingenuous at best. I really don't think that's the reason why we've gotten more quiet recently. It's not that without a whip (to use your metaphor) we stop working, it's that after a while our backs start to harden and the whips lose their bite. We no longer fear them.

There's been a version of the Ice Melee thread here for over 6 months now (I think). That's a long time to continue the same discussion. Even if we were changing points slightly, the gist of the topic has been the same, and burn out is rampant. Many of us may just need a break. Whip us all you want, but we're tired, and it may not hurt any more. But again, that is not your fault (I'll get to who's fault I think it is at the end).

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I even did something I knew so little about and am terrible at; Did the Math and Crunched Numbers. Yes, as often as not I goofed, didn't carry a decimal point, and got it wrong. But hey, I friggin dropped out of remedial math for a reason. Still, I pushed onwards even when I was giving myself migraines trying to figure out how to balance the set. At least back then I felt like it was worth it and I wasn't alone.

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Just wanted to take a step aside here and say thank you for doing this. I did make a lot of difference. As another person who hates math, I really do thank you and Redlynne for doing all that stuff.

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So, I just want to thank a few people quickly. Molar_Mauler, Ice_Ember, Ice_Knight, Wonderslug, and of course, Aett_Thorn. Thank you all so much for your support, ideas, and time over all three threads.

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Here again I think is one of the problems. The people mentioned above, you, and Redlynne (who has quickly become a very respected member of the /Ice Melee community in my mind) are pretty much it. I mean, /Ice Melee is such an underutilized set in the game, and even on the forums, that after a while, it just becomes us talking to ourselves. I mean, I love you all, but we're pretty much just preaching to the choir here.

Maybe we need a devil's advocate, or even just a troll that argues with us. Because right now, it's pretty much all of us saying "yup, it needs a'changin'."

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No one person or Otter can do this alone. For a long while I felt I was alone during the final few pages of 2.0 and now when Redlynne needed support I abandoned her.

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I hope she doesn't feel this way. You've done more than any of us on this matter, and that is to truly be applauded. You should not feel bad about this. These forums are not life, and should not be treated as such. Things get in the way of posting. It happens to all of us. Don't beat yourself up for things that happen here when you're out in the real world.

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But I just can't do -THIS- anymore.

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And like I said before, welcome to my life. It just took you longer to get there than me. I've been fighting this fight for almost three years now. You want to know how many positive changes I've seen happen to Ice Melee: 0.

And this brings me back to who I think is really at fault for the Ice Melee threads dying: The Devs. I don't mean this in any way as calling them out, but we have heard next to nothing from them on the matter. I know that several of us have PMed them on this matter, but really, we needed more from them. I know that _Castle_ is working with Blasters and Defiance now, but quite frankly a post or two from him in one of these threads explaining what the situation was, and whether he would even use the data were were giving them would have gone a long, long way, I feel. I mean, it's great to toss ideas back and forth at each other, but without feeling like the Devs even care, it feels a lot like tilting at windmills.

We're worn out. We need a break. Give us two months, and we'll start a 4.0 version or something. I bet you responses will pick up then. But right now, I think we all just need a break.

_Havok_!!!!!

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4) Port Axe and Morning Star to brutes. Never understood why they didn't get weapons.

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Problems with fury.

Zombie, man, how hard is it to come to the conclusion that after three years of getting nothing new, that we might want some actual attention?

Just porting over Dark Armor to tankers might make up the disparity, but doesn't really make us feel that the Devs care about the AT. It feels more like a cop out.

We have 4 primaries, that's it. Yes, adding a fifth even just porting one over would add to that, but we WANT something new. I think after 3 years that's not an unreasonable request.

Who do you really feel needs new sets? MMs? They got 5 brand new spanking sets with the release of CoV and issue 7. Stalkers? Brand new AT with some new powersets at the release of CoV, plus got Dark Melee ported to them with Issue 7. Tankers haven't gotten ANYTHING new, not even a ported set, since CoH was released. Certainly, it is not an unreasonable request for us to want something new, and some actual Dev time that isn't nerfs.

Just porting sets over will not really solve the problem at all. We've been asking for something new since Defenders got new powersets. I do not think it's unreasonable at all to be asking for at least some new primary set.

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edit: Aett I coulda sworn the Energy Auras and Ninjitsu were already in CoV at launch...porting Energy Aura over to tanks an maybe even scraps would be a great idea and should have been done long ago.

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They were in CoV at launch, but not CoH. Scrappers and Tankers were asking for new sets before CoV even came out. Then CoV was released, and we saw that certain sets that we had been asking for were being given to the new ATs and not us at the same time.

I'm not saying that other ATs don't need new powersets too, but when it comes to who should get them first, Tanks and Scrappers should be it.

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Posi, how are you going to account for the skewedness of the poll?

What I mean is that we have no idea what your intentions were behind some of the sets. Like, how is Vibration different than Fore Fields? How is either of those different than current armors?

Shields are going to be massively over-represented in this survey because they're an easy concept to grasp. Density, Vibration, and FF I feel would be underrepresented because we have no idea what they actually MEAN. The poll, as put forward by your team, will be significantly skewed because of factors like this. You've introduced several complicating variables into the equation.

I'm not saying that shields wouldn't win anyways, but really, I mean how do you expect us to choose between vibration and density armor if we don't know how they'd be different?

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Exactly. Here, I've got another poll. I'm introducing a new ice cream flavor. Please tell me which one tastes best:
<ul type="square">[*] Green[*] Cloud[*] Sweater[*] Apricot-alicious[*] Fred[/list]
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I choose Fred. Fred's always taste nic...errr...I mean, so I've heard.

But this is exactly what I'm talking about. Out of that list, Apricot is what I'd go with, because it's the only one I know what it should be like. The rest I can't actually judge what it would taste like.

Zombie, Tankers and scrappers have not gotten any new sets since the game came out. Whether we get something by porting over an existing set or a new set, you can't deny that those two ATs have gotten no new powersets in over three years. I think it's high time we got something new, don't you?

I mean, Brutes got two new sets since CoH came out, in the form of Energy Aura and Electric Armor. Now, granted they haven't been around as long, but I'm just saying they got some newer stuff than Tanks and Scrappers have. Stalkers got Ninjitsu and Energy Armor.

So, while Tankers and Scrappers might be able to draw on the most pools with just a direct porting, they haven't been able to use those sets for 3 years. I think we're entitled to some love. Hell, we've been asking for it for long enough.

Right, the 'if they wanted something similar' things is what bugs me. There are examples for density control, but what about vibration? What would that even be like in-game? What would set it apart from the other sets that we have? What would set it apart from the other sets on the list.

THAT is what I'm looking for here. Basically, if the Devs have in mind that there really isn't a huge mechanical difference between Force Fields, Density Control, and Vibration, why are they all on the list?

Without knowing what the concepts are behind the sets, can we accurately judge what set we want the Devs to make?