_Echo_

Well... that was a good practise run, hhuh guys? *nervous laughter*

Fortunately my net issues magically resolved themselves in time for the respec trial to begin. Unfortunately the vines bested us last night. The vines conned red to most of the team and it became clear after a couple of laps around the tree room that they were going to be really tough if not impossible to clear. Defensively the team was awesome - only a couple of player deaths by the tree. Offensively, even with a bundle of Shivan pets, we couldn't clear the vines fast enough to proceed.

Chatting with Grizzly Vet after the mission, we kinda decided that waiting until level 32 would be the soundest time to re-attempt the respec (this is what the all-dom team did eventually too). If we were all the same level so the vines conned orange to us, that would also be a good time to try again (though that's not likely to happen any time soon).

No matter. GrizVee also suggested we try the Sharkhead SF next week as something different. I think that would be a cool idea since we'd have no troubles on a SF, plus the SF reward tables are nicer than the trial ones anyway!

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Hard to believe there could be 2 Ninja Noddy's.

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No way can that be true??

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I always did on Toybox

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Ah. so your toybox!

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Amongst other toons, yep.

Why? Has Echo been taking his name in vain or something? Do I need to plan my high energy laser/plasma/incendiary swarm missile and Web Grenade/Envelope/Cocoon based revenge?

:P

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Nah I just remember him from when I was playing a MM on defiant

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See Canine, I AM innocent!

As for the respecs, I don't need them at all so I won't miss them if I... miss them. They were planned mostly to break things up and to get a nice Respec Reward Recipe at the end of it.

Whether you guys go ahead with the trial tonight or not is up to you, but please don't postpone it just on my behalf.

Sorry guys, but right now it's looking very unlikely that I won't be able to attend tonight's shenanigans.

Some may know that I moved house at the weekend (into university halls for the summer) and I was expecting there to be a net connection already. There is, but hahahaha it's not that simple! I'm working through both the clerical and technical issues right now but it might even take a couple of days. Very frustrating.

If I don't see you tonight, best of luck!

That last comment wasn't directed specifically towards you Dark_Blasphemy, and I apologise for not making a clearer distinction between it and the rest of my post. You talked about your experience before and I acknowledge that. I've added accounts based on my own experience too.

I'm not disagreeing with you on the AV point. I know I run short on endurance in those fights, using the minimum of toggles just as you do. I would have thought Stamina made the difference in those long fights, but on your account it doesn't seem so.

Seems to me that Stamina might not even be needed for AV fights - though I can't commit to that notion until my Controller has Conserve Power and I try it for myself. If that is the case however, that would make Stamina even less necessary for Ill/Rad. Something for me to find out later methinks.

As to your other comment, what is the point of making a toon "as good as it can be" when there's no need for it to be so? Even if a neutral observer could see a noticable difference in the performance of my Controller to compared to a Stamina build (which I think would be neglibile), my Controller like most others more than meets the requiremnts of this game on its highest difficulty.

If every challenge can be beaten so easily, is there any need to improve? Speaking personally, I see no point.

If you invest time in PvP, I can certainly understand your desire to min-max your build. For PvE however, my build more than meets this game's standards. Your standards are higher and that's fair enough.

Only if you go for an endurance/toggle-heavy build...

In my original post I already mentioned the downsides of my build. No Superior Invis, no Leadership. The really long fights will drain me. I don't make excuses for that, but it's a disadvantage I'm happy with living with and rarely encounter.

Is my build optimal? Nope, but I never tried nor felt the need to make it that way. I don't PvP and my 'troller crushes the PvE enemies convincingly enough that I've never strived for more nor felt lacking in power (just like pretty much other Controller, I've been on Invincible since about lvl 20 and have never looked back).

Is my build capable? Completely. My build works as hard as any other Controller (including period of time between rest cycles). As I just said, solo or team, my (and any decent) 'troller is so capable the game is almost boringly easy.

Little side note: I enjoy playing alts which are challenging. Blasters and Dominators for being glass cannons, for example. The challenge in my 'troller was in the making, and the experiment without Stamina.

The experiment was successful even before access the Epic pools and Conserve Power (which I was always planning on getting to help with the AVs that are so common in the 40s). In the 30s and with all my main power choices selected and with a better damage-per-endurance rate than ever thanks to Phantasm, my enthusiasm for continuing to play my Controller is severely waning. The experiment's over, the toon performs strongly as a 'troller in 99% of fights, and as a 'troller the game is just WAY too easy. I'm frankly bored and unlikely to reach 50 with this alt.

Basically, it works. It works just fine.

You're trying to say that it's impossible to make a viable Ill/Rad build without Stamina, yet Black_Light and I have both (quite independently of each other) found decent Stamina-less builds. I'm only trying to say that there are other perfectly-workable options available to Ill/Rad players who want a few more fun powers instead of the usual arbitrary ones.

Conventional wisdom says that most ATs need Stamina, especially Controllers. This is a proven exception.

In a nutshell:

If I need to heal myself, then something has gone badly wrong with my defence, or the team's defence as a whole - the enemy's already through the gates and pounding on my toon. The Kin or Dark heals, of which one application will near enough refill the whole Health bar, so such a toon could heal themselves in one shot and keep going. However, the Rad heal is much weaker and can takes 2-3 applications to heal to 100%. In that timespan, in that kind of situation, the enemy will be punching a lot faster than the toon can heal. The only viable tactic is rebuild defences (use control, debuffs, redeploy PA or ST, for example) or run like hell. The heal will only get you killed.

The situation is probably very different for a Rad Defender, or for a controller with some primary other than Illusion, but for me and my Ill/Rad, the heal simply does not work.

I'd be happy to discuss this power some more, but let's stop derailing this thread okay?

Yeah, the tree will almost always faceplant us if it hits, but the team's got a lot of gizmos to help out in that area.

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Not meaning to sound harsh, bu an Ill/Rad without stamina is a gimped Ill/Rad

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It works. Have you tried it?

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yes. having a fast recharging heal that can heal around 250HP or 450HP when coupled with powerboost is absolutely rubbish on one of the most hideously powerful set combos in the game.

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And as for the Rad heal... it is weak compared to those other Defender Primaries with a single heal power. Sure it's AoE but it's rarely enough to mitigate incoming damage against large spawns.

Look at the sets in comparison. Kinetics and Dark AoE heals are much stronger but require a target, Storm heal is much stronger but not AoE. Those three work much better in an emergency than the Rad heal.

The simple fact that Rad's other damage mitigating powers are so powerful means the heal is weak to balance out the set. It's the weakest power in the set and if I could drop it, I would.

Certainly if you were running a lot of toggles, including SI, Choking and the Leadership toggles, you would need Stamina too.

I just made considered choices about what I wanted and needed. I'm most bummed about not being able to take Leadership, since I would have loved the Vengeance/Fallout/Mutation combo.

Ill/Rad is just such a powerful combination that such comprimises don't hinder me at all. Indeed My Ill/Rad still feels, by far, the safest and strongest of all my toons.

I have a lvl 36 Ill/Rad controller I started to see if I coudl get away without Stamina. Never picked it up, and never needed it. Gogin from memory, my build is somehting like:

Illusion:
Blind, Spectral Wounds, Deceive, Group Invisibility, Phantom Army, Spectral Terror, Phantasm.

Radiation Emission:
Stupid subpar heal that I'm forced to take, Rad Infection, Enervating Field, Lingering Radiation, Accelerate Metabolism, Mutation, Fallout (just for kicks).

Pool Powers:
Hasten, SS, Recall Friend, Teleport.

...in no particular order.

The key to the build is using Hasten and AM together. AM to improve recovery, then AM and Hasten to reduce the recharge until the next time you can cast AM. While it's running AM provides a better boost than Stamina and with Hasten, AM's active about two thirds of the time. Which I've found is plenty.

As soon as I got Phantom Army, I knew the build would work. I now have three invincible drones to do much of my damage for me! And without using up my endurance to do so! When Phantasm came along, things just got better.

Similarly, Spectral Terror is a great soft control that keeps on controlling, end-free, after you cast it.

Typically I'll apply the Rad debuffs and let my PA and Phant go to work, chiming in with Blind and Spectral Wounds where I can. Making sure to turn off SS and Sprint, and endurance is only ever an issue in the longest of fights (versus GMs).

All this is pre-I9 as well. With IO set bonuses, I'll be able to improve my recovery even further.

Sure I've made some compromises. No Superior Invisibility, but Group Invis (in handy click, not toggle form) and SS cater for all my stealth needs. No Choking holdd from rad either, but that power's awful anyway.

Skipping Fitness has allowed me room for a few utility powers that I've found very useful, or just damn entertaining. Not enough people take Fallout.

Hen, I was just about to say something like "Well you're bound to enjoy next week's meet then! "

Respec! Reeeespec!

Seriously though, I remember the first attempt at the all-dom respec, the team was at level 24 and had similarly bad results. Super frustrating. We went back at level 30 (or 32?) and kicked butt though!

As for the Trappers, I'm sure we'll do fine. As specialised a team as we are, we still have the necessary tools. We have MMs, Shivans and lots of AoE to take care of the vines, then massed FFGs to protect us from the trial's AV. Plus we're going to burninate it with triple Ignite!

It was a small team this week, probably partly because of DXP burnout. Those folks that didn't show can go grab a Shiven in BB before next week, if they think they'll need it. Make sure to openly insult other players in broadcast while you're there.

It's not unique.

Persoanlly I think Damage procs are very worth it in AoE powers (more targets means more damage), espcially those that cause aggro but no damage in the first place.

Grav and Ice Control are especially good for this, as their powers also cause Slow which means you have twice as many procs to choose from (hint: choose both!).

Damage Procs tend to more worthwhile the more of them you have, so slotting in multiple powers, especially powers with faster recharge, works best. As such, Recharge set bonuses (or LotG: Recharge) are mighty handy too!

Of course all this comes at the expense of slots elsewhere, but lvl 50 IOs and set bonuses help counter that loss quite nicely.

See you guys tonight! Remember, we'll be hitting Bloody Bay first.

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Best.
Mission.
Ever.

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I'd like to propose we try the respec trial in two weeks time, for something a bit different. The way our team performed this week, I think we should be able to handle it.

If you're up for that, then next week we'll visit BB for Shivan pets in case we need them for the trial - and partake in a little PvP too. We could also re-do the BME (Best Mission Ever) for any folks who didn't make it this week.

At least in the Fly Trap's case, it's meant to be a ranged/control pet, right? Something like Singularity.

We did the CaD SF not long ago and it went very smoothly.

We've been talking about PvPing too. I'd like to have a go for a change. Plus we need to get Shivans at one point too.

Personally I would get Acid Mortar much earlier, it really helps with your damage and aggro. Preferably get it as soon as it's available, level 10.

Poison Trap is a must as your strongest form of control. If you can fit it in you won't regret it.

Hello there!

Yeah we have 3 regular AR Trappers at the moment, all salivating over the potential of the triple-Ignite combo ((or was that just me?).

Tonight's the night!

Assault Rifle's good enough for Damage Procs. It's got *does math* 5 Ranged AoE set powers, so 5 * Posi's Blast: Chance for Energy Damage there. Plus 2 more Procs in Caltrops... Plus one in Webnade... Plus Sniper Rifle...

My AR/Dev Blaster is going to be a Damage Proc gimmick monkey, so I don't know if I'll go the same route with Mea yet!

Ice is one of the best blasting sets as it is. With Ice AND Traps, you should be able to put out a very very respectable amount of soft control.

And as you said, Ice Blast is Inventiolicious! Are you going to slot a Damage Proc in every power?

Plus all the team's immobilizes will work very nciely with Ice Storm and Blizzard!

The mission IS timed, yes. 90 minutes and a Longbow Ballista

If memory serves correctly, the mission owner will have already picked up a jetpack as a reward for the mission immediately beforehand too. So if you're right then 7 team members should have packs after one runthrough.

Sounds good.

I'm just concerned that the jetpack mission doesn't award the pack with full duration for every member of the team once you leave, or if it's just the mission owner. I've only solo'ed it in the past so I don't know for sure.

Cool, a full team should be fantastic/lagtastic.

My chief concern is that the Sky Raider contact dude is level 20-25. Considering most of you are level 25 now , we may have to do some crafty shenanigans in order to complete Capt Petro's arc (if you haven't already) and unlock the Sky Raider while we still can.

(Also, I've always wanted to do his final mission - the attack on the offshore Sky Raider base - in a large team. The mid-ar combat is awesome!)