Yogi_Bare
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Posts
1909 -
Joined
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How about giving all of E's attacks (STs and AoEs) a chance to Chain/Jump (like Chain Induction) its damage and drain/recovery debuff? And increasing it's chance to return End to the user?
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I know they cut the Interrupt out for 'enhanced snipe'; did they shave down the casting time as well (or are they one and the same?)? On the vids, it didn't seem as if they were taking a full four seconds to fire one off (but my memory's kinda fuzzy).
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Quote:Originally Posted by Alexander_Drako
Eh, bad example. Blazing Aura Sucks, with puny damage on AoE at 8ft radius instead of 10 or 20 like other powers, being the reason why it's skipped a lot, so I could go and say "why wasnt it placed on consume to make it like drain psyche?", so i dont think only Elec got screwed.Wouldn't the damage/radius be irrelevant if using it as an HoT toggle (damage becoming the bonus)?Quote:Originally Posted by newchemicals
My fire/fire blaster with blazing aura and hot feet would disagree.
5-slot; 3 Theft of Essence's A/E/H, A/H and proc and the 2 for either Scirroco's A/D/E, D/E or Numina's H/E, H? -
Well, it seems that for the solo game... the changes are a bit more involving than when in a team or league situation.
I could see the Snipes cycling more quickly in teams with stacking ToHit buffs (with some sets being in good position to take advantage of secondary abilities that normally would be considered inefficient).
Beam: Disintegrate->Penetrating = more guaranteed AoEs
Rad: Buffed; a -33.5% def debuff (plus an additional AH proc opp)
Electric: Buffed; a -27.5% End drain attack
And a team allows mob damage to be spread out enough to where regen/HoTs may have more time to apply their benefit.
So, maybe they approached it from a, "How do we make Blasters be of more benefit (less hindrance; perhaps?) to a team?" perspective? -
Quote:According to the Devs: 'LRM not included'.'Originally Posted by Kyriani
I wonder if LRM from the munitions APP is considered a snipe for these purposes >.> probably not... that would be way too much fun he he he.
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Quote:You'll have another, more available, option for Disintegration Spread now.Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
The funny part is I've been leveling up an Beam Rifle/Devices Blaster with the long term intent of retconning my AR/Dev Blaster into a Beam/Devices. Not because I dislike AR but because Beam Rifle fits the character better (and I love the animations). This change is putting a LOT of pressure on that plan since it really boosts the appeal of AR/Dev. And keeping both isn't an option, I now have four versions of the same character and am trying to force myself to reduce that to two so I can actually play him more.
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Quote:Personally, I'd rather have the Health bump every 2 seconds rather than every 12.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
+Regen and HoT is the same thing by different mechanic. Suppress Pain is better than Soothing Aura because it appears to be designed stronger for some reason.
In fact, regen *is* heal over time: we regenerate in big 5% health chunks, by default every 12 seconds. To make a regen power and a HoT power have the same basic survival strength, but with different delivery mechanisms, just requires a couple of seconds of math. -
Honestly somewhat (not utterly) underwhelmed by the +regen/+recov. Using it on my /WP Brute I find that without much (or any) Res/Def to go with it (or running middle ground regen numbers); you're still going to eat dirt.
Would've preferred something like [front-loaded] Healing and/or Endurance over Time or even a degrading Absorb effect. -
To Hit buffs, hmm...
*[of course; Aim/BU powers]
*Defense debuff heavy sets may want to invest in the Analyze Weakness proc
*Decimation proc
*GSFC proc
*Siphon Insight proc
*Kismet unique
*slotted Tactics
*Call To Justice
*D.U.S.T. Ranger Day Job
*Yellow Insps
*Lore - Carnie Radial -
Ranged set with attacks that [teleport] the target to a fixed point/vector from the caster.
Some would bring the target in closer; some would allow the caster to wormhole them back to (or keep them at) 80' (or an attacks max modified range).
Most attacks (optionally) could also provide a small chance for either Stun or Confuse ([teleport] disorientation).
The [teleport] transition would have to be immediate (to minimize loss of attack time due to the target possibly being out of sync); unless a work around could be made to keep the target targettable during the [teleport] sequence. -
Quote:Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
Any melee powers should be defense only, something like Divine Avalanche/Parry. But we will never see that happen.
That would be kind of cool. -
And, of course, I'll be playing 'soccer dad' for the duration of the blah blah blah... so, hopefully there'll be a thread full of post-info goodness when I get back.
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Quote:Originally Posted by Tater Todd
Oh darn...well Plant is still safe! If the Proc worked in Bonfire it would Make Fire Control even more interesting! I was referring to the Overwhelming Force Proc.
Oh, that one (I thought you may have been referring to the FF proc)... I guess the best way to preview a similar effect is to take note of the damage Bonfire does while you're keeping them locked down with your -KB powers. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Dark One
Exactly.
In cases like that, I think people try to call the movie a "film" and "good" so that they appear to be more intellectual than the plebian masses that enjoy something like AvP or Shaun of the Dead. Whenever I'm tricked into one of those arthouse snobbery movies, I find myself wanting to yell, "Someone throw a pie or something!".
Yes, I can be very Peter Griffiny at times. >.<
And I liked both AvPs (probably because I wasn't corrupted by established AvP lore (and all those poor wittle babies in that nursery; hehe)) -
Quote:It's a pet summon and from what I've been told, the KB proc is ineffective in those type of powers.Originally Posted by Tater Todd
I think we need to do 4 tests...
1) Grade sets by themselves vanilla also include APP and PPP combos.
2) Grade sets with Procs or possible incarnate content.
3) Grade sets according to Secondaries that best suits the Primary or sets that pushes the damage limit of the Primary to it's peak.
4) Discuss/Debate which combo would work in what situation.
Has Anyone tested how the KB proc works with Bonfire yet? If it work how it think it does then Plant has some scary competition.
[....wait, which KB proc?] -
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Plant - Creepers are insane and can be made perma and Seeds give you more damage potential (hard to gauge actual numbers though)
Fire - If you can maintain Lockdown, Bonfire can be a beast as well. Hot Feet can be kind of a tossup depending on your playstyle... If you don't mind the risk of LJing it, it can be of great value; if you tend to play at range, it probably isn't going to do you much good.
Three Imps means ongoing damage even if you lose one or two. Soulbound Allegiance proc.
Dark - Haunt damage compared to Creepers or Bonfire... I don't know (doubt there's any comparison really). Umbra beast has more total attacks and AoEs than both Imps or Fly Trap.
I really can't speak on the rest. Yet.
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Quote:Venomous Gas; I would go:Originally Posted by Jawbreaker
If so, how should it be slotted?
4 slot Dark Watcher's Despair - TH/End; Rch/End; TH/Rch/End; TH
Achille's Heel proc -
IMO, Snipes should be to the ranged class what Assassin's Strikes are to Stalkers. They both represent 'kill shots' deliverable due to the element of surprise.
Unfortunately, the Snipe doesn't deliver whereas the Strike does. And the Strike lends itself to more flexibility.
To this end, I would like to offer the following:
Change Snipes to work more like the updated Assassin's Strike. Under a predetermined set of circumstances, Snipes would continue to function as such; long range, high damage, interruptible (possibly providing increased damage/bonus damage); a miss under these circumstances would increase the spawns perception radius but not aggro them onto the sniper. Otherwise, it would function as a normal ranged attack.
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Other options could be to; separately or combined:
1. Turn Snipes into 'narrow cone' (ie. piercing) attacks
2. Borrowing from AS again; allow a snipe hit a chance to cause a short duration, small radius AoE Fear or Confuse
3. Allow a snipe hit to create a location based Taunt (ie. spawns run over to the body/target to investigate)
4. Apply a KD effect to a successful snipe
5. Allow a successful snipe to instantly recharge itself
6. Apply a speed debuff to the target -
Idea seems good but at the risk of the Devs shooting down anything that has to do with actual protection, I would opt for including mez resistance to Defiance building attacks.
This way, you're constantly building "mez reduction credits". When you do get hit by a mez; the initial duration has already been shortened and your 3 mez-proof attacks allow you to shorten it further.
And/Or:
Integrating a chance to 'break free' to a Blaster's 3 mez-proof attacks. It would work just like popping a Level 1 Break Free inspiration. -
Quote:Originally Posted by StratoNexus
To be fair, that is not really the point that was being made. The AoE attacks in Sonic should count no matter what, their damage is low, but not negligible. Yogi was simply stating that incarnate stuff and IOs can make them even more potent, not that they were needed.Exactly and thanks. (just got back from the lakeQuote:Originally Posted by StratoNexus
And I don't think Yogi was trying to bring them into the discussion. It was more of an off hand remark, a momentary aside.)
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So, I had this all nice and replied to... but the stupid dog unplugged my router and I lost it all.
Quote:My initial reason for wanting to include all of the ATs because it was being stated that all the ATs were encroaching on Blaster damage because of the tweaks they've been receiving.Originally Posted by StratoNexus
But you can compare them to scrappers and brutes and figure that out. You do not need to compare them to all other ATs as well.
I'm willing to use your short list provided we add Stalkers, Corrs and SoAs to it as well (high damage dealers).
You were saying that this sub-topic was muddy. Without clarification; its not of much use to either of us.Quote:I don't think the base damage mods are largely irrelevant. I think they are one of many points of reference.
As stated before, I'm testing on a Dark/Fire Blaster. At level 12 and with base recharge, I was able to consistently build up and maintain an approx 30% Defiance bonus (28-33%). This is including slower powers like Combustion and Fire Sword Circle into the chain. [Edit: using the Combat Attributes Monitor to keep track]Quote:Maybe I don't play right, but I am fairly confident my blasters do not get an average of 28% increase in damage from defiance, especially my level 50 blasters.
[Edit: Edit: Just rolled and am running a level 2 Sonic/NRG; with just the first 3 attacks, I can maintain a 30.80% Defiance buff with a global 30% recharge; pushing up into the 35,37 and 41.80% range (assuming I don't miss and not counting the -Res (which doesn't show up in the Combat Attributes Monitor))
At level four (base recharge (let Quick Reflexes expire)), I'm maintaining a 29.70% Defiance buff]
They didn't give numbers... it was just the statement(s) that they did more damage. [Edit: probably read too much into post 393].Quote:link please, I am missing where average damage of the AoEs was discussed rather than just the number of AoEs they had access to.
I only counted AoEs that actually did damage. Being that's kind of where I'm at... at this point of the discussion.Quote:Yeah, I am not sure what was meant by that. My numbers differ from yours (blasters get 68 AoEs across primary and secondaries, scrappers get 62 across primaries and secondaries), but I still get blasters averaging more AoEs than scrappers, specifically most blaster combinations can access more AoEs than most scrapper combinations.
I did not include APPs (and scrapper APPs do have more damage oriented AoEs than blasters, but blasters do have a fair smattering of AoE effects in their APPs) and I included every AoE effect, things like Invincibility and Lightning Clap were not excluded. Arcanaville will have to clarify her intent, because it seems the statement is incorrect.
I do this as well; relying on my Defiance buffs during the interim.Quote:This can get tricky, but having your best attacks back faster can also improve burst damage, since you can more often use them. However, in general I find rotating Aim and Build Up even on a non-recharge intensive build allows me access to one of those buffs 2 out 3 spawns (Build Up spawn A, Aim on spawn B, neither are recharged for spawn C) and with some focus on recharge every spawn.
I'm not denying their existence or potency but the fact remains that most Scrapper secondaries don't have AAO or FE, etc. Just like most Blaster primaries don't have the -Res of Sonic.Quote:I do like Aim and Build Up a lot, and having both is indeed nice and I can't imagine not having them. However, it is hard to deny the potentcy of Build Up and AAO or maybe Power Siphon and Fiery Embrace (although FE's recharge is too long for an AT that depends so heavily on that kind of buff, IMO) or Build Up and Lightning Reflexes+Lightning Field.
No one said that, what was said was the damage buffs that scrappers have access to are stronger on average (taken individually). Scrappers have access to Build Up, but also a smattering of better +damage powers than Aim or Build Up.
I would be providing misinformation if I used Sonic as my fallback position when addressing across the board Blaster buffs (unless I were applying it to the overall median)
[Hopefully, I'm keeping the following in context, as to how I'm perceiving the references made to AAO, FE, etc]:
Quote:Originally Posted by Arcanaville
These are interesting (and sometimes powerful) extras.
In any case, for Siren's Song to be a good counter-example to the more general statement that Blasters don't get mitigation powersets, it should be valid to say that any primary blast set that doesn't have mitigation comparable to Siren's Song is broken, in terms of not fulfilling its design obligation.
No one says that.
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Just using the buffed nuke combo example to gauge what people are referring to as "encroachment".Quote:In the future, if you refrain from the above type of silly comment, I will not respond in kind. For now though:
Indeed. Or everyone should take blast sets with true nukes, secondaries with Build Up, as well as make sure to take Burnout. Because that was the obvious point my example was making, that we should all conform to one ideal...
Or maybe I was just saying that your example of blaster nuking wasn't pertinent nor as potent as you thought? Nah, more likely I was suggesting the devs should turn off all other powerset combinations besides Shield/Electric.
And, yes, I may have been a bit snarky but that seems to be the trend of the discussion; pitting a specific circumstance as a discredit to to an opposing median.
*Second time around (plus interruptions); my thoughts may not have come off like they did initially -
Quote:I'm counting all AoEs in this. Distinctions beyond that are defined by playstyle and has no impact on existence. My playstyle allows me to use mitigative or recovery AoEs as damage tools even if the mitigation or recovery isn't needed.Originally Posted by slythetic
Rather than count them all out myself I thought I'd ask a quick question since you're earlier counts seemed inflated to me. Or if you prefer what you call an aoe attack I wouldn't. So how many aoe's does sonic have? How many does darkness mastery?
To my mind the answer is one and none. But I think you're doing any attack that has any aoe component so 3 and 3.
As far as damage buffs I'm really not getting the point. In a group the kin/assaults/etc make them less relevant. In a small group or single setting the buff isn't significant enough to be up every spawn and burst down an entire spawn before they can react much. To me burst damage doesn't have a whole lot of relevance in pve if it doesn't offer a defense advantage. At least in the sense of blasters.
***Example: Sonic has four AoEs; although you may be discounting the sleep attack, the KB attack and the nuke... I do not.
Dreadful Wail (as with most Blaster nukes) are the epitome of burst damage that offer a defensive advantage (in most cases); overshadowed by Judgement powers (vs an unboosted nuke).
Siren's Song (sans the sleep component) does moderate damage on its own; increased by 20% when used as a follow up to Howl.
Shockwave might be ignored now as part of a normal AoE chain because of the KB component (situational power; although ranged classes are less impacted by the effect than melee classes) but wait til everybody starts clamoring for the Universal Damage procs.
In addition to being able to slot procs; now that we have Incarnate abilities that can add more significance to the underused and the meh I would hesitate to trivialize any damage having AoE power that can add to a kill count. -
Quote:Establishing a baseline and seeing whether Blasters are above or below it given their role.Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Why is that an interesting discussion? Do we really need to discuss obvious exaggeration or someone who talks out of context? It is likely when someone says blaster damage is mediocre, they mean mediocre compared to other ATs that specialize in damage or they are talking nonsense. I do not think it is a needed conversation to compare blaster damage to tanker damage and then go, well everything is fine, blasters do more DPA than defenders. Blaster damage should be compared to scrappers and brutes (and doms and stalkers and maybe corruptors), because those are the other ATs designed to inflict damage primarily. Why do you want to compare their damage to other ATs that are not designed to primarily deal damage? What does it demonstrate if at least blasters can usually outdamage Peacebringers?
So, as someone stated prior; largely irrelevant? (as a reply to my inquiry of relevance... and as long as it keeps coming up, I will continue to question its relevance.)Quote:Go ahead. But that is more to the point of the DPA discussion below. This fact is simply stating that scrappers have the best melee and ranged damage mod. Nothing more. These are examples of where blasters could have a clear lead, but instead the waters are muddy.
When a crit occurs, I'm sure its an amazing thing (love them on my Stalkers) but if your Fireball only crits, on average, 8% of the time then you're only getting a 12% bonus to your lifetime (whatever power) damage vs a Blaster's, on average, 28% Defiance bonusQuote:My experience with my Blaze mastery scrappers leads me to believe in the math that says scrapper crits have a significant impact on scrapper damage that in many cases makes them superior damage to blasters (Fireball crits make me go WOAH!)
Actually, that statement was made and no; Scrappers do not have more AoEs:Quote:But that is not the statement that was made. The statement is simply that scrappers on average have more AoEs. That is a fact. Size of the AoEs, target limits, and damage output do not change that fact. Again, this is an example of where blasters could have a clear edge, but instead the waters are muddy.
Blasters: 57 across 19 sets [not counting 'narrow cones' or Disintegration Spread]
Scrappers: 47 across 24 sets
not in total; not on average.
For DPS? Yes. For Burst? No. Funny thing is, when I was actually defending Form of the Mind vs. Form of the Body using the same argument; I was getting shot down on the basis of effect on burst damage. But if we are to use it then its impact on both DP types need to be quantified and averaged in; just like the other damage buffs powers.Quote:Hmmm. SR gets +recharge and slow resists. +20% recharge almost assuredly has a bigger impact on damage output than Aim.
You just can't state that Melees excel in damage buffs by saying, "Although 76% of Blaster Primaries and 86% of their Secondaries have a buff power; it all moot because Kinetic melee has Siphon Power."Quote:And those other stronger melee class buffs are not being presented as the norm. They are simply being stated as EXISTING for non-blasters. Not as the norm, but as possible to have.
Thanks for the explanation.Quote:First, anyone can take the damage of a power and divide it by the animation time and find the DPA of those powers. Second, when Arcanaville says she is not guessing on a design principle, it means a dev told her. You have to choose whether or not to believe her yourself. Melee attacks having better DPA than range attacks seems like a reasonable design principle, since you may have briefer time periods of possible interaction, you need to have better DPA (think PvP or Doom Patches in PvE).
I would still like to see the margin of difference; even if it is just between the 'damage dealers'. If the Blaster role is pure damage and the damage creep from other damage/hybrid ATs is significant enough; then I would like to see that and participate accordingly.Quote:No reasonable person is saying blaster damage is poor. Simply that it is not all that much better or not at all better than other damage dealers.
So everybody should run out and roll Shield/Electric; Electric/Shield as opposed to any and all Blasters or other melee combinations?Quote:I played my level 39 Shield/Electric tanker recently. I am unimpressed by what can be done to two spawns with nukes and Burnout after experiencing Lightning Rod + Shield Charge.
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[To me, this is kind of like the 'tip' argument in Reservoir Dogs.
Is it going to be a matter of "Fine, you've convinced me not to play a Blaster." or is this whole thing irrelevant to the point where I just end up throwing my money on the table anyhow.] -
Quote:I am aware of the damage creep, however, my questioning stems from the fact that some players are claiming that this creep is somehow invalidating Blaster damage; making it mediocre. I kind of wanna see this on paper; Blasters' median rank compared to all ATs... not just Scrappers and Brutes.Originally Posted by StratoNexus
That depends on the argument. If you are arguing that scrappers have better offense than blasters, true. If you are more simply arguing that scrappers have a smattering of better +damage powers than blasters and encroach on blaster offense, you likely do not need to go that far.
Arcanaville listed a series of facts (only two of which are arguable), followed by the proposition that scrappers encroached on blaster damage, not that scrappers totally surpassed blaster damage. To the following list she made, remember to add my list from post 403.
[This allows me to make more informed dialogue/suggestions on this particular aspect. I don't want to be a trumpet for more Blaster damage if they don't need it... but I might be able to find better ways to deliver the damage they do have?]
(previously queried) So, if we put together an average ranged Blaster chain vs an average melee Scrapper chain...?Quote:Scrappers have a higher melee damage modifier than Blasters
cheat and use it for their primary and secondary ranged attacks where its equal to the Blaster ranged modifier
(previously queried) Posts 391 and 397.Quote:have even higher average base damage due to crits (this is arguable I guess, but the math I have done shows it to be generally true)
My numbers say otherwise; the contention point being the average damage of the AoEs (Burst? DPS?)Quote:have a higher number of AoEs on average
My skepticism at this point is that the stronger melee class buffs (Rage, Siphon, Follow Up, AAO, etc) are being presented as the norm but aren't being averaged in to give a realistic picture of expectation. (If we're going to tell a player to choose a Scrapper over a Blaster because Scrappers put out better damage buff numbers (based to AAO/FE) and they get all excited and roll a Staff/(non Shield or FA) toon...Quote:have stronger self damage buffing powers on average (this is the crux of the current argument, and it is valid to discuss that having both Aim and Build Up is better than having Build Up plus any number of other tools scrappers have for increasing damage, but I think the scrappers come out ahead (in general), but that might be hard to prove to people who feel otherwise)
[It may turn out that the overall median buffs provided may favor Scrappers (and I would be okay with that) but by 'showing the work'; I would be able to see the margin of difference.]
Basis (not doubting, just asking)?Quote:have higher DPA on average by design
Outside of my current focus.Quote:having vastly superior damage mitigation on average
To the point where its not a selling point any more for Blasters? I have yet to see that proven.Quote:would you say its more likely they might encroach on Blaster offense?
Especially when I can show off a Aim+BU+Nuke+(pills)+Burnout+Aim+BU+Nuke combo/[stagger/reset].
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