_Deth_

As was stated already, what was intended and what actually happened are way different. Yes the "intended" aggro mitigation AT was the MM. Was. Past tense. They gave that up a LONG time ago. See, as I have said in this thread a number of times, square peg, round hole. Aggro control was also built into brutes from day one, they were never intended to be tanks tho.

It is people that think brutes are just villains version of the scrapper, and people that think the brute is just villains version of the tank, that have really screwed up the perception of the brute. Brutes are neither scrappers or tanks, they are brutes. They are also not "more like" one or the other, they are neither, and are both, all at the same time.

Then all the sets are broken except /stone, and maybe /inv.

To make them sturdy, it takes little to no effort. Every other set requires some extra effort on the players part to get to the same performance.

I'm sorry, but I just can't take any argument seriously anymore on this issue. I just took a level 27 /DA stalker, and running papers set on relentless, took on 4 mobs at a time. Not even conned mobs, +2 and +3 mobs, red con lt's and purple conned bosses. Freakshow no less, where DA is gonna get hammered due to no energy resistance and a whopping 5% total defense. And no, I don't even have murky cloud on that toon yet, so there is no energy resistance at all. The bosses, when I was stupid enough to just stand in front of them, could 2 and 3 shot me easy.

If this guy is having this much of a problem, it is his build, period.

Seriously, a lot of people just don't like to use their heads anymore. If it doesn't have the set and forget ease of WP or Inv, then it's broken.



Yeah, um, slot WP badly, and you wind up just as dead. This is speaking from painful experience. No IOs, at level 45 or so, I hadn't played the toon in a long time, and when I was leveling I had no clue how to properly slot it. I just kinda threw darts blind, and well, yeah, I got dead quick. Then I educated myself, respec'd and learned how truly powerful WP can be. I have a feeling EA is about the same way. If for no other reason than because I have seen folks do some really neat stuff with them, and with only SOs.




My point is, you can do the same without power pools, you just have to be smart and work within the limits of the set. Defense based sets are problematic for people that expect them to behave like resistance based sets, or layered sets. People having trouble with Ice Armor on tanks comes to mind.


This is true, but if the set sucks with SOs, it isn't going to miraculously turn to gold with IOs.


I can, do and will. It is very rare that a primary or secondary is so broken that in the right hands it can't be made to shine. overall effectiveness, versus being effective in certain situations. At the end of the day they are all pretty balanced.


Yeah, hate to break it to you, but other secondaries lack regeneration, like ElA, which currently has no hp buff or heal.

Not really, WP is not way out of whack with other sets. It has it's strong and weak points. It isn't permanent god mode by any stretch of the imagination. Even money says in the right hands, /EA could perform within the same ballpark. I haven't made a DA brute yet, but I have had Inv tanks tell me DA tanks were squishy then watched them drop well before I did.


I just do not agree with you here. And the evidence of numerous other people coming out and stating this backs that up.

Define balance? Every set has it's strengths and weaknesses. Some sets are easier than others, doesn't mean they aren't balanced, just means you have to put more effort into them.

but it is relevant. like I said before, IOs don't magically make a set good. If it was garbage before IOs, then it is still going to greatly underperform with them.

Anyone throwing together random powers from other secondaries isn't doing well. Some people just expect way too much out of some sets, and some people don't look at the overall style of sets when they build them. Some people don't even read the power descriptions when choosing powers and just look at the names. Just rolling a toon and throwing together random powers doesn't entitle someone to be even remotely survivable just because of their AT.

Again, just picking an AT does not entitle you to anything. If you make bad decisions in your build, you deserve to die, and that is all there is to it. Does this mean everyone that doesnt IO, softcap and take fighting deserve to be terrible, of course not, but there is no set that requires these to be playable.

All point to EA not being broken.

Any primary is viable with EA, but they wont all perform the same way and require different styles of play to make them equally effective.

Never had problems with Arachnoids on my elec/elec brute. And that is from when they first released elec, well before IOs. If you can't fight 5 even con freaks without dieing on a set that excels against energy damage, you borked the build. If you build is that borked, you deserve to do badly, plain and simple.

Tell that to people playing DA.

Um, if it would put them on par with WP, where is the problem. More people would play EA if that happened. Kinda like how more people are going to start playing elec after I16 comes out.


Still don't get why EA is supposed to "sneak around." Yeah, they have a stealth, so does DA, and you don't see them slinking around all the time.

None of the secondaries are flat out broken, some just take a bit more intelligence to play well, a little more effort. The tradeoffs for that on a lot of them for that are worth it, if for no other reason than because there are too many /stones running around.

looking on Mid's, unless it is broken on stalker DA, the end use is not bad at all. Seriously, it is showing an end use of 1.07, and that is running every toggle, cj, tough and weave.

as I said in my initial post, ignore the levels I posted, it is a level 50 build. I generally don't Malefactor down.

The big problem I have with Shadow Meld is that it is down more than it is up. Yeah, when it is up, it covers you well. 15 seconds later you are getting pounded like crazy. Now, if I were playing hit and run tactics, I may go with that, but I went DA trying to avoid that. With IOs, tough and weave are better, period. Softcapped melee defense, 30% ranged, and way over soft cap on AoE, with no down time on it. Plus it adds a bit of resistance for when attacks actually do hit. If I wanted a timed "I win" button, I would have went with /Nin. At least you get 2 minutes out of the one in there.

yep, I am seriously considering remaking my DA/DM tank into a DM/DA brute. Won't be able to make him quite as tough as my tank, but his damage output will be ungodly. I should essentially be able to do with a brute version what I can't do with my tank, which is kill AVs.

As far as EA goes, I have seen folks do some nutty stuff with EA, so it's not the set.

That's just slotting, I dig DS on my DA tank, I hit the boss and let it kill off the minions. Still seriously considering making a DA brute, just not sure what to pair it with. Got a DA stalker as well. There are lots of ways around the end use in the set, hell, on my tank i use Dark Consumption as an attack as I never have end issues, and that is running 10 toggles.

What is really ironic, you get mad because people expect you to tank on a /DA brute. Meanwhile on my DA tank, half the people when they see I am DA(without looking at info, as it is IO'd to the hilt), immediately either say they need a second tank, or ask if I think I can handle it.

Trying to figure it out made my brain hurt, and yeah, while wracking my brain i messed up, whirling mace is stun.

This. Don't know how the hell I missed it. Been playing with a lot of Ice and storm lately. Last night, didn't run with any for the first time in awhile, and all KD. I still hate tremor tho, just not quite as much.

*shrug* dunno, he just burns through end like you wouldn't believe. Wait, I haven't run it in regular content in awhile. It may do fairly well in normal content. Against large mobs of 52 bosses solo it sucked end like nuts. Yeah, I may need to try him out in regular content again, might not be so bad. Can't believe that it only just occurred to me when i started this reply. I kind feel like a moron now. My DA is what I measure against, which made more sense before he was IO'd to the hilt (only missing 2 LotG recharges and the extra kb resist for SJ, zomg I love that tank). Well, that and my Ice/WM, which is also a bad comparison.

Still can't jump tho.

Anyone that says you have to tank as a brute misunderstands the mechanics. If people stopped trying to force a square peg into a round hole, i.e., saying brutes are tanks/scrappers, it wouldn't be an issue. As I have stated, aggro management is part of what a brute is, whether people like it or not. Whether it is active or passive is up to the playstyle of the person playing the brute.

I am just wondering what defense set you can use and not have a taunt aura without severely impairing yourself, as it is a secondary effect in a major aura power in each set.
I can possibly see not having the taunt auras on DA, FA, ElA, Stone and SD without severely compromising survivability, but then you are gimping your damage output.

Well, depends on which side you are on.

Heroside:
Tankers main job is to be an aggro magnet and essentially guard the rest of the group. Survival is their main job. If all goes wrong, they are generally should be the last man standing.

Villainside:

There is no strict tanking AT. The dynamics of Villains is different than the dynamics of Heroes. There was originially no strict healer set either. Playstyles and people trying to make a square peg fit a round hole shaped tanking villainside after CoVs release.

Brutes grab aggro to fuel their damage capacity. Holding aggro and keeping the rest of the team alive by absorbing the brunt of the damage is sort of a side product. They are not tanks, and if the rest of the team doesn't back him up in this regard, then the brute will be one of the first to fall.

Masterminds were originally supposed to be the "tank" class. This is no longer the case, however, a well played mastermind is going to be skilled in aggro control. Masterminds, in the right hands, are more than capable of tanking.

I think you mistook what my point was. When on a team, the team has to act as a unit, or will essentially it will just be a waste of everyone's time and effort. If you don't want to contribute to a group, go solo, it's that simple. I am not saying that everyone should build their toons and play in a fashion that they are dependent on others, I hate stone armor tanks and brutes specifically for that reason. At the same time, if I am in a group, and I jump into a large number of mobs and DON'T get backup from them, I am usually pretty annoyed at that point, and if it becomes the norm with the group I leave. Being self-sufficient is all well and good, but there are situations where all the self sufficiency in the world amounts to jack.

The roommate example is a good one. If I could afford to pay the rent on my own, I wouldn't need the roommate in the first place. If my roommate can't make the rent, I get a new one.

If you are in that situation, then you are on a crappy team. A brute, with proper support, is more than able to tank. Those are the key words, and what seperates brutes from tanks. As a brute, I run at the biggest meanest thing in the group, I hold its aggro, and will generally grab the rest of the aggro in the process. I don't do this to protect the team, I do this to maximize my fury as quickly as possible. I generally only grab strays if they are really stomping on someone. My survivability and my tactics make me the tank by default, and if the team is worth a crap it works out swimmingly. My job is to kill the biggest and nastiest of the mobs face to face, with his eyes on me. The beauty of this, is that villains all have damage as their primary set, with the exception of Doms, and even their mechanics provide for a ton of damage. All the weaker mobs, in a team of 8, should be decimated by the rest of the team, aggro or no aggro. It's funny how I can tank on boss missions with my brute, without actually tanking. I run in swinging, and all I do is attack. I might throw a taunt here and there so I don't have to chase things. I don't run around taunting mobs off of squishies unless they are in serious trouble. Keeping the squishies alive usually keeps my damage bonuses higher, so I can hit harder and crush better. Wait, if i "protect teh squishies" I get a benefit of being able to kill better, funny how that works.

This sums it up beautifully.

The thing is, the brute IS tanking in that scenario, just not in the traditional tanker "meat shield" fashion.

Just because the mechanics are different, in a team setting, the roles are the same. Brutes are not tanks, this is true enough, and the way they play is different if played well. A tank, in a group, has one job, and that is to get the attention of all mobs and keep it on him, damage is secondary. Brutes grab the attention of the mobs by putting out tons of damage. Too many people compare brutes to scrappers, and too many try to make them tanks. The reality is they are almost dead in between, and if played well, can be both at the same time.

Yeah, I quit playing my MM completely when I came back to game, as it feels like they gutted */poison.

I remember watching a huge group trying to take down deathsurge, back when regen on GMs was insane. They didn't put a dent in him. I strolled up, popped my debuffs, and down he went like he was nothing at all. Used to duo AVs with my gf's brute. Now, it just feels lame in comparison. Gonna look at his build, see what I can do with him, but not holding out much hope.

I made that toon during the preview weekend before the release of CoV, was my first 40, first villain 50, and now, my first ret. villain.

Not to play devil's advocate, but seriously, if you are on a team, you DO depend on others, and are expected to play a role. Doesn't make you weak, just the dynamics of the situation.

No, I am not saying all brutes should be tanks, but if you see a teammate getting his tail handed to him, you step in, doesn't matter what AT you are.

again, like I said before, personal preference.

And, like I said before, I have been getting knockback from it. Today. On 52 bosses. No I don't have any kb slotted in it. Usually happens if i hit it right after fault. That could be part of it, but I doubt it, as with my mace tank it would happen when i chain CC and Whirling Mace.

If you guys like tremor, neat, more power to you. I don't. Some people like Coke, I like Pepsi. I can see the utility in it, I just don't use it enough for that purpose. The main reason I got it was for the aoe damage, which is terrible. Damage capped, I get less than 300 damage out of it. This makes me cry, as there is ZERO reason for it doing such terrible damage. Footstomp and Shield Charge do a TON more damage and knock the mobs on their tails. I can keep the mobs on their tails enough with fault for my taste. I still plan on respecing out of it. Now, like I stated in my first response, I am coming at it from the brute perspective. However, even as a tank, I am sure I would hate it.

The last build I posted I stuck with the powers he chose, as that is what he stated he wanted to stick with. **shrug**

I know how the mechanic is supposed to work. I will admit when I posted I was thinking about something else, which is why I said it with such authority. That said, I have been getting a lot of KB with tremor, and I never slot for KB, and abhor the mechanic on melee toons. KD and KU, I love to death, but I hate chasing. I rarely fight anything my own level, much less 2 levels below.

As for must have, if you were going to pair it with other AoEs, I would be more apt to agree. Personally, I don't like it, but to each his own.

Glad to help. And you should thank CMA as well, as his softcapping guide for invuln has been the inspiration for most of my builds.