Arilou
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Posts
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Joined
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Quote:Because of the way the contact tech works. They've been trying to tweak the way you do these things (by eg. tip missions, etc.) but ultimately the game works by having an entity tell you what to do. It can't (in it's current state) handle "us" deciding to do anything. It can be faked (eg. tip missions) but that's just an illusion, and not a very good one at that.Originally Posted by Dal
Exactly! We don't get to enjoy the best of being a villain, it's all about being told what to do. The excuse as to why we do it is always along the lines of the contact "paying" you to do it. It's so ridiculous, and I am glad that they are changing that. It is most uncreative. We need better reasons to do what we do. For the whole gane you get to see the actual villains (contacts) accomplishing their plots using you as a tool. -
Quote:Except that on Praetorian Earth you have a backup organization. (The Resistance) that you're not controlling.
You lack imagination. On Praetorian Earth, our characters manage to be enemies of the state and still survive just fine despite opposing a government of VASTLY superior technology and material means, not to mention one of much tighter control of its territory. "Oh, but you're a double agent." Beladonna Vetrano isn't. Everyone knows she's Resistance but they just can't catch her. Calvin Scott isn't. Everyone knows he's Resistance but they can't find him. This stops neither of them showing their faces in public, they just have to be careful.
Again, i'd love to play "create your own superhero/villain org: The strategy Game" but that's not really in the cards. And without that ability there's just no way you can take on an organization like Arachnos or Emperor Cole without the backing of someone.
Even in the incarnate trials we need a huge number of superhumans, backed up by Vanguard, Ourobouros and Prometheus to even have a chance of denting the enemy.
Yes there is. *it's an explanation for why the game isn't sandboxy*. It's an in-game explanation for "Why can't I murder civilians and feast upon their flesh? WAAAH!" "Why can't i go to Paragon and blow up the Atlas Statue?"Quote:You lack imagination in much the same way as the original City of Villains writers. There was no reason to tie our Reclimators to Arachnos, there was no reason to have all Vendors be Arachnos-sanctioned and there was no reason to have what amounted to our entire end game up until I19 consist of kowtowing to the Arachnos power structure.
The reason is because the game mechanics wouldn't be able to do that and have it remain fun for everyone, so they say you can't, and Arachnos is the organization that enforces certain rules.
It's an IC explanation for an OOC phenomenon.
You *defy* Arachnos constantly. I was however talking about *defeating* it. And when Daos says he'll bring the full weight of Arachnos down on you, that's what he's talking about. Making you Priority Target #1.Quote:You don't need to punch every Arachnos soldier in the face in order to defy Arachnos,
Arachnos provides a status quo for the game, which (unless you wanted to make the game entirely sandbox, which would almost have to entail full-on PVP in every zone and all that) is neccessarily to explain why there is a *game* here, and not just villains running around beating up each other, heroes and civilians. -
Quote:How come Lee Harvey Oswald could shoot JFK and yet not take over the US?
Then why are they NOT actually in charge? Why are the Heroes capable of genital-slapping not only the Grandville defence forces, not ONLY the Patrons, but also Recluse himself tanked up on super-jesusbeam steroids machine.
How come John Wilkes Booth could shoot Lincoln and yet the South lost the war?
Arachons != it's leaders. To take on an organization like that you need more than firepower, you need an army, an organization, a plan... And the game mechanics can't handle giving us that.
I'd love to play a superhero strategy game, but COH isn't it. And this means the major organizations of the world are going to be beyond our ability to defeat.
EDIT: We can also get in and fight Recluse because the vast majority of his armies are also being drained by the WEB. This is stated in the briefing.
Because we may have strength, but we don't have *power*. -
Manticore killed by Scirrocco with a sword, in the basement.
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Quote:My understanding was that the loyalist/resistance was always there, but the warden/crusader and power/responsibility choices were added later.Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Now that would explain a lot. Doing this kind of storyline archaeology always uncovers very real reasons for seemingly random, unreasonable problems. And somehow, it always seems to come down to business messing with storytelling.
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Quote:And you're demanding to be the god-moded player, who demands to be treated like a special snowflake and to be able to ignore any kind of existing power-structure in the world, just by virtue of being a player.Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Yeah, so the argument goes, and it's still just as much nonsense now as before. Heroes don't seem to have a lick of problem invading Grandville all the time by themselves and not facing anything from Arachnos and it's not like they're the only people with a mediport system. Nor, for that matter, would fighting about a million Arachnos be all that much of a challenge with the aggro cap where it is. The game teaches me that I can come in and rip their bases apart any time I so please, yet all of a sudden I'm supposed to be afraid of them?
This is the ultimate in god-modding GM ******** - but thou must, and constitutes the single biggest fail of the entirety of City of Villains' story as planned out ahead of time - we're small-time weak-willed thugs who want to suck up to Arachnos while they are the big fish who really matter. Tying vendors and reclimators to Arachnos was a mistake. Tying US to Arachnos was an even bigger mistake.
For all the bad things I've said about Going Rogue, at least it has the right idea when it comes to self-serving agendas. "Sinclair will use you!" says Beladonna. "Sinclair can't use you. No-one can use you! You'll show the Resistance what you're made of, and if Sinclair tries to mess with you, you'll take him down, too. NO-ONE controls you!" That's what a good super villain is. That's what a good super villain does. He doesn't shrink from one bald old man. He punches him in the mouth, takes on the full might of Arachnos and shows Recluse that he's not to be messed with.
It's been six years now, and I'm not any more interested in accepting that Arachnos apologist rhetoric. The game shouldn't be trying to explain why my character is a chickenshit coward. The game SHOULDN'T put my character in a position to be a coward in the first place, and that it does is a fail for City of Villains. The whole narrative treats us like lowlife scum, with every other contact calling us stupid brutes and acting smug and superior. I sincerely hope that Freedom includes as much contact-killing as people are saying, because that's precisely what villains do with contacts who talk back.
And that's stupid. There's a world. There are powers in it and you mess with them at your own peril. You don't get to mess around with the Lady of Pain or traipse into Nessus or fight Cain or kick Khorne in the shins or have tea with the Dark Powers without issues.
Personally I wouldn't mind an option to say Screw you to Daos... That would then show a cutscene of you being killed and delete your character. Because that's what would happen. You shouldn't be able to beat Arachnos in a straight up contest of power. Because to dos o would be silly. We'd have to have a completely different game (more of a strategy game, I'd play that, no doubt) in order to simulate the kind of power you'd need to take on an organization like Arachnos. You're one superpowered person (albeit a strong one) and there are thousands of them in the world.
To quote an old Jedi saying: There's always a bigger fish. Or in this case, you might be a Great White Shark but Arachnos is a school of Piranhas big enough to swallow the moon. -
Quote:Honestly, bringing the full might of Arachons is *quite* a different thing than anything you'd fight in an average mission.Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
That's my meme, actually. And you have to admit that Recluse's obsession with the Statesman went beyond Dr. Doom and entered into creepy and weird a long time ago. The man isn't trying to rule the world or increase his power, he's content to just show up on the Statesman's doorstep and throw smarmy remarks at him like a spurned lover. And for his part, the Statesman abandons his calm and flies into an emotional rage every time he sees Recluse (check out the tutorial loading screen comic on Beta) like they had a bitter break-up. I honestly feel that the narrative would do Recluse a HUUUGE favour if it stopped identifying him through his relationship with the Statesman.
What really sinks Recluse's sense of power and villainy is that he runs a shithole that he doesn't really run. Aside from that one signed order to Arbiter Sands, it doesn't feel like Recluse does anything at all but exist as a figurehead, because his entire organisation is corrupt, mismanaged and highly unsuccessful at actually running a nation that runs itself behind their backs, for the most part. The reason people praise Tyrant and poopoo Recluse is that Tyrant is the villain with dignity. He rules his nation with an iron fist and everything that happens is said to have been thanks to him. Recluse, by contrast, simply exists in the Rogue Isles and lives among garbage and ruins. If anything, City of Villains looks more like a post-apocalyptic Earth than anything else.
Fixing villain-side would require giving Recluse a little more dignity as the de facto lord of the realm, possibly by giving him a zone that's less of a shithole, and at the same time giving players more opportunities to oppose him successfully, giving them the sense of having overcome a credible threat. Right now, the game's biggest fail is Arbiter Daos threatening to bring the full might of Arachnos on my head and the game playing my character like he's actually intimidated. Yeah, Arachnos, the dudes I've been slapping around like errant stepchildren since I was level 1, and I'm supposed to be afraid of them? Give me a break!
Feel like fighing abou a million arachnos soldiers at the same time as a dozen AV's, and without access to the medport system?
And this all happen at the same ime, mind, not spread out across a map like regular stuff.
Sure, you might be able to personally best Lord Recluse in a fight, but the full might of the organization (that mind, has access to nukes, among other more sophisticated weapons) is a different thing altogether.
It's the difference between having a punch-out with Putin and facing he entire russian army. -
Quote:I think in a wierd way Recluse doesen't have servants; He has allies. People serve him not because of what his goals are but because of what he can provide; A (somewhat) safe base, resources, an army.Originally Posted by Lazarillo
Right, but by definition, if you're that hardcore into Recluse's philosophy, you won't be serving him. On the other hand, if you find Tyrant's more appealing you...might work with him. Or you might decide that he himself is one of those hard sacrifices that needs to be made. However, with Tyrant, at least there's a viable path as to why you'd work for him, other than "he'll beat me up if I don't".
...granted, as he's proven with Apex, Tin Mage, and even Admiral Sutter, he is perfectly willing to beat you up if you don't anyway. But at least the way he's written, there could be more than that (even if the game doesn't allow it in any sort of storyline fashion).
He's basically running franchise-villainy: "I'll help you out as long as you help me out... And when this deal is no longer acceptable we'll fight it out and see who wins."
Recluse's rule is based on naked force in both respects: He uses it to enforce his will and it is also his incentive for people to serve, that he can provide this force when called upon. -
Quote:Recluse actually has a kind of philosophy. It's kind of esoteric and not very appealing to me personally, but I can sort of see it.Originally Posted by Lazarillo
Right, so the real question is why the double standard? Why is it possible to serve Recluse, but not Tyrant?
And no, it's not "because Tyrant will lay waste Primal Earth if he wins". Recluse will do the exact same thing.
But he aspires to greater. More or less, I can ostensibly see reasons why people would take Tyrant's side (especially, amusingly enough, after the Underground Trial). This is independent of any personal feelings on the matter, so let's not go there (not that you did, but...you people know who you are!). Recluse, on the other hand, I just don't see how working for him appeals to anyone looking to be anything other than an evil lackey.
Tyrant says "Look, we're in a really bad situation, and these are necessary evils. You may not like them, but if we want to protect people, we'll have to carry them out." There's plenty of implication that he actually believes in what he says, though, let's assume he is lying, he's still appealing to some people's senses of righteousness. You might serve him willingly, or be his ally, because you think his goal is in the right place (compare to Vanessa DeVore and Calvin Scott...both want Tyrant gone, so they're willing to work with each other).
Recluse says "Pancake you, I'm Lord Recluse, and since I'm the king, I do what I want. And you do what I want, too." In his case, not only is there no real reason to ally with him, it's literally impossible to do so in the first place. You either serve him, in the pursuit of his own personal goals, or you're against him.
Now, granted, none of this actually really matters, since the plot has already been written into railroading everyone into one single direction. But in terms of why people would have different feelings about being railroaded one way and then the other, I think it basically covers it.
Tyrant says: "Let us all work together for the Greater Good! Sacrifices have to be made of course, but I am willing to reward those brave enough to make these hard decisions!"
Lord Recluse says: "You are free. Nothing is preventing you from doing what you want except those with more power than you. If you want power, take it: What happens to you next is up to you. There are no rules beyond the rule of the strongest, and you have always fancied yourself as precisely that. Now let's see how good you are. As long as you are strong enough and clever enough there will be nothing stopping you." -
Server-order is at least partially determined by what server you last logged in to.
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Depends. Change can be good or bad, it's useless to say unless you know what's it going to change into. Give me a good change and I'll take it, a bad change and I'll complain, it's that simple *shrugs*.
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You know, I'm confused by the fact that people are angry with the Keyes fight. I've never died when fighting him. (obliteration beam is easily avoided, entanglements are weak and disintegrate is easily solved by greens)
The problems I've had has always been with lack of tanking skills. -
Quote:Depends on what you're doing. It usually takes 10-15 mins to get a TF going (longer if it's one of the obscure ones) and I've spent hours forming teams occasionally.Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
True, but it usually takes me two to five minutes to form a team.
err, that's not a lot of time. -
Quote:Yeah, you can just jump into the trials. That's my point.Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Trials are not public quests. It's public when just about anyone can hop on. Until recently that wasn't the case. And it STILL isn't the case if you don't use the LFG/TUT system. I can't just walk into the public areas that Keyes and BAF actually exists in, in Praetoria and be offered the option to join a trial or have the league interface appear in my window.
Also when I think of public I think of the mothership raid, not something that requires an instance.
The raids are NOT public quests.
Technically speaking the ORIGINAL HAMIDON could be considered a public quest.
They're just so difficult that most people won't let you do that
(thanks to a few fairly annoying issues with the queue)
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Quote:I was talking about the PQ originator, not COH.Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
The rewards for PQs don't have to be crap. Again: Mothership Raid, which is done by numerous people.
The pratorian ones gave crap rewards by choice. (though I personally don't find something meant for a lvl 1-20 area to be crap rewards for where it's located. /shrug).
Edit: But my main point was that endgame does not have to mean raid. and multiple player does not have to mean raid.
And as mentioned, Trials are in practice Public Quests, just difficult ones. And that difficulty means they tend to be pre-formed. -
Quote:I would have preferred "Paragon" myselfOriginally Posted by Winterminal
So... VIP server to be called Exalted eh? I can dig it, though I still think "Freem" would have been fun.
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Quote:Again. Failure has no consequence in this game except lost time. Hence time is the only metric that matters. If it goes faster it's easier. And soloing is generally faster than teaming once you count the overhead require to actually form a team.
It might - *might* - take longer to set up a team (again, the team does NOT need to be 8 people, team does not mean "Group of 8.") Once that team is inside, the content is EASIER barring utter facepalming incompetence. -
Quote:I'd note that 90% of the cases people would preform PQ's too. (although well, 90% cases they wouldn't do them because the rewards were crap...) and if that's the criteria, COH already has PQ's (although people don't use them as such)Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Errr depends if you mean modern mmos or the original ones. For most games you need to preform the raid then go into it.
A public quest in modern mmos, anyone who just walks by can often join in.
That's a HUGE difference. -
Quote:To be fair, I don't think anyone has actually argued against a solo-option, just against making it too easy.Originally Posted by Winterminal
Examples quoted for truth. I agree with the other points about the general trend of the thread as well, but those illustrate why a solo option should be present.
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Quote:To be fair, there really isn't much of a difference between a PQ and an instanced raid, functionally.Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Yep, but it doesn't have to be raids.
Again see Warhammer or even this game's direct competition: Public Quests. -
Quote:Because of the effort it takes to form a team. Soloing can be done at any time or any point. (even say soloing TF's would be very easy as you could just quit when you get bored and continue later, which you still can do on a team but it's again, much more complicated since you have to schedule a return-time with other people) teaming requires a bunch of people to be at the same time and point and intention. This makes it by nature more complicated to form a team than to solo.Originally Posted by Obscure Blade
Since when is soloing easier than teaming? If anything the opposite is true, teams often tend to be steamrollers.
If a task takes 30 minutes on a team of eight, and a comparable task takes 30 minutes to solo, the solo task is going to be easier. (and since MMORPG's rarely have actual permanent "failures" with real consequences, time is really the only metric that matters) -
Quote:Partially because, well, what's the point of having a server with thousands of people on it if you can only ever work with 8 at the same time? Massively multiplayer games have their charm in well, their ability to have a massive amount of players working together.Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Why does it HAVE to be raids? I mean, honestly - why the "but it's always done this way" post?
Why does MMO have to mean no player created in-game content? See AE. Yes, I know people farm - but people also create arcs.
Why does MMO have to mean gear-based costuming? See our costume creator and enhancement system.
So...
Why does "End game content" have to mean raid? Why are our devs insisting on remaining in *that* box?
Doesen't mean everything has to be about that of course, but it's one part of the MMORPG experience. -
Quote:People have been asking for large-scale team-based content though.Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Errr, no.
People asking for endgame content have may or may not been asking for raids.
The only thing we can say 100% they asked for was Endgame content.
That does not in any way shape or form have to be raids. -
Quote:It really isn't. It's basic MMORPG-mechanics. Soloing is EASIER than teaming. Therefore, teaming is going to need better rewards. Again, really basic math.Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
You mean like introducing Mothership raids?
Note that introducing that did not preclude getting solo/small team content related to it as well. (Or the zone events.) And nobody would suggest one means the other can't happen.... well, except in this case the incarnate "raid raid raid" crowd who, since the Incarnates beta, seem to be absolutely adamant that it's the only way to get Incarnate stuff unlocked in a reasonable (IE, less than - what was the latest estimate with what was announced? A few years?) timeframe. And who seem to want to demonize anyone wanting anything else.
Strangely enough, nobody asking for solo/small team content has said "No more raids!" They may have said they're not fun for them individually, but nobody's argued against having them or having more of them.
And yet, somehow, it was so far out of the devs orbit to consider - given the nature of this game's audience - that people might want solo/small team content instead of or in addition to the "OK, herd 12-500 people together!" raids?
The other thing that's getting me is that posi somehow seems to believe having that available would kill the trials. Again, if that's the case, there's something *wrong with the trials.* However, I'd feel fairly safe putting money down that most people would run *both.* I have half an hour? I can hop into an Incarnate arc and run a mission and make some progress, as opposed to spending a part of it waiting for the trial itself to form (since the LFG tool is useless) and running out of time. I have more time? Run part of the arc because I missed the one leaving, then join up with the next trial run.
Amazing how that works. But it apparently is an alien idea now... *shakes head* -
Quote:A Mind dominator just soloed the LRSF, and you call it CRAP?
I hate Mind, it's so...crap.