Magisterium Trial Badge Runs, Sat 09/15


Bionic_Flea

 

Posted

Hey, all. Per this thread, we had some success but not the full success I wanted to achieve on Master of Magisterium badges tonight. We did finally pull off Ready to Rumble, and we got Hard Way twice pretty handily, but we need a lot more work to get Really Hard Way.

Basically, we need to front-load the team with Corruptors. Preferably, we want ones that can dish out -DR debuffs and maybe +damage.

Tyrant is immune to -regen debuffs. Only -DR, +damage and -maxHP are likely to be meaningful.

We need everyone who remotely possibly can be to be +3. I don't want to accept anyone on the league who is not at least +2, and I'm only going to accept a few of those at most. I don't like forming leagues that way, but it's too hard to meaningfully DPS or debuff a +6 AV.

For those that don't know, the lower Tyrant's HP are, the higher his regen rate goes. This means that any given net DPS can hit a kind of floor where his HP won't really go down any lower, because his regen eventually balances the incoming DPS. This is why Corruptors are such a big deal - right around the HP levels where that really kicks in for Tyrant, Corrs start dealing more and more damage due to Scourge. Naturally their debuffs are also a huge help.

If you need this badge on something that is not on a Corruptor or primary damage dealer, you may need to help others get if first. Basically, we're extremely unlikely to be able to get this badge for everyone who wants it in one pass - too many folks with lower DPS contribution will mean no one gets it. We need to load up the team with a bunch of Corrs, mix in the badgers (paying attention to how much we dilute DPS if possible) and run multiple times, hopefully swapping people in and out to get the badge.

If you want to contribute but don't have a +3 Corruptor, that's OK. I'd appreciate all the help we can get given the community's current mental state. If things go well, though, we may not need you for every run - just the ones where you're up for the badge.

Given the above plan, I will keep scheduling this until we get peeps the badge. I may accelerate the scheduling to get more times per week in next week if we need to.

Edit: It probably helps if I state a start time, eh? I blame being fried from tonight's trials. Let's say 8 PM Eastern, 7 Central, 6 Mountain, 5 Pacific. We will likely go for a few hours at least, so if you can't get into the first wave, don't sweat it. Please bear with the initial trial being slow to get rolling, as we figure out who can bring what, etc.

Thanks again to everyone who helped tonight, and my apologies to those who couldn't really help out.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

I want the badge on Bionic Flea (tank), but have +3 sonic/rad and ice/kin corrs that I am willing to switch to as needed.


50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM

Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad

 

Posted

Just a reminder, this is still on for tonight. We'll be starting at 8 PM Eastern, 7 Central, 6 Mountain, 5 Pacific, and I plan to run at least three tonight if we have the membership to support it. If more are needed, I will schedule them for next week.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

Thanks Justice!

Amazingly good Really Hard Way Run tonight.

FemFury's last badge is done, final count of 1397.

It was a great epic battle. Got Tyrant down around 18 to 20, then the league poured it on just as the league leader asked. We had him down at 11 or 12, the crackle warning hit, but a bunch of us clearly thought the same thing: "so close, just a little more!". We didn't flee the crackle, just kept hitting, got him to 10% and finished him off, dying in the lightning, of course,but then he was in his wimpy form. Easy to rez and finish him off. Wonderful fight!


I'm a published amateur comic book author: www.ericjohnsoncomics.com
******MA Arcs****
Arc 5909: "Amazon-Avatars"
Arc 6143: "Escalation" (Nominee: Architect Awards, Nominee: Player Awards, and Dev's Choice!)

 

Posted

A) I want to thank everyone who came out for this tonight. After all the hard work and instruction it took on Thursday to get Ready to Rumble, the league that got Really Hard Way tonight also got R2R without trying. We really rocked the trial on that run. We also had 2 successful runs getting Triple Threat. (We missed it once.)

B) There are still folks who need these badges. I am willing to keep running trials this coming week. I am currently planning Tuesday and Thursday, again at 8 Eastern, 7 Central, 6 Mountain and 5 Pacific. I know it can be hard for Pacific folks to hit that time, so I will also tentatively plan another overflow for Saturday.

Thanks again to all assisted!

Click on the image below for a larger version.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

This was an amazing run. Thank you, UberGuy! For those that did not participate, I think there were several keys to success:

1. Excellent leadership, and the team members were mostly all skilled players who could move out of the lights quickly but not lose much dps. There were very few deaths.
2. Everyone was using Ultimates, so we were mostly +4 rather than +3. Uber told us that a +4 delivers 30% of his damage onto Tyrant, while a +3 only delivers 15%. I think something similar applies to debuff.
3. All characters were +3, I think. Maybe a couple of +2's but not many.
4. We had 7-8 Corrs, so Scourge was high.
5. I noticed that we had approximately 400% -res (including one powerful sonic/sonic defender -- thank you Electroanagesia).
6. When we repeated the run with the same players, same skills, Ultimates, etc., but only 300% -res, we did not get close to success.

This is an approximate assessment of -res since I don't know how my teammates were playing their characters. but I've done many, many of these runs, and I think very high -res is the unappreciated "secret" of getting this badge, along with the other elements listed above.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Consultant View Post
This is an approximate assessment of -res since I don't know how my teammates were playing their characters. but I've done many, many of these runs, and I think very high -res is the unappreciated "secret" of getting this badge, along with the other elements listed above.
As potent as a Son/Son defender is, I doubt it was adding 100% resistance debuff against a +5 AV all by itself. We had a Dark Miasma Corr, at least one Rad Controller, a Cold Domination Defender, a /Thermal Corr and I think some more /Rad and /Cold Corruptors. When we lost the Son/Son, we added a /Dark Corr and a Dark/Dark Controller, though I'm not sure what all else we lost. (I think we lost the /Thermal). While not all those powersets can maintain 100% uptime on it, they all have potent -resist powers.

There's no question that -resist is one of the only meaningful debuffs in this contest. Normally, -regen factors heavily into this kind of encounter, but Tyrant is completely immune to that - he has over 100% resistance to regen debuffs. That makes -res and -maxHP about the only things we can do to him that speeds him to defeat, and of those two, -res is far more available to us in large doses.

Getting lots of Corruptors is also key, because of how Tryrant's "favor of the well" works. The lower his HP get under 50% of his max, the higher his regen gets. But Scourge says the lower his HP gets under 50%, the more often Corruptors deal double damage. This can give a league the extra oomph to push past a place where otherwise, Tyrant's increased regen would eventually counter the league's DPS, but Scourge increases the DPS as his regen goes up.

A Corruptor inflicting Scourge consistently gives them the game's highest effective AT damage scale by a wide margin - the only real competitor is probably a Stalker with saturated crit chances (which may not be too outlandish in this fight). Due to other complexities, even dealing 100% Scourge might not definitively mean Corruptors become the most damaging AT out there, but I think it's very likely that it puts them on par with Blasters, Scrappers and recently-upgraded Stalkers. The beauty here though is that you get to have your cake and eat it too - top-flight DPS and the potential for lots of resistance debuff.

I think in the first league, we had a combination of enough Corruptors, enough resistance debuffing non-Corruptors, and enough high DPS "other" characters that we blasted through. Even without Scourge, that league would have gotten his regen to balance out our DPS at something low. (The way we blasted past R2R hints at this.) So the Scourge we did have pushed us over that edge. The second time around, I think we lost some of all of those things. We had fewer Corruptors relative to the league size, less total -res, and less "core" DPS. Our league size didn't drop very much, so Tyrant didn't get much easier to defeat.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Consultant View Post
2. Everyone was using Ultimates, so we were mostly +4 rather than +3. Uber told us that a +4 delivers 30% of his damage onto Tyrant, while a +3 only delivers 15%. I think something similar applies to debuff.
I'm not sure if Uber mentioned it too, but I think it was me who first brought this up in league chat.

For anyone not familiar with the details of this game mechanic, here's the link to the "Purple Patch" page on Paragonwiki:
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Purple_Patch

So when doing Really Hard Way, Tyrant is 54(+5), and we don't get level shifts from killing the lights. So, taking from that chart, here's how various Incarnate shift / Ultimate combos stack up versus an effective Level 59 target.

50(+3) with Ultimate: 30% of base damage

50(+3) no Ultimate or
50(+2) with Ultimate: 15% of base damage

50(+2) no Ultimate or
50(+1) with Ultimate: 8% of base damage

50(+1) no Ultimate: 5% of base damage

And remember this modifier doesn't just reduce damage, it also reduces your Debuff effectiveness.

These numbers are pretty stark. So, if you think as a 50(+3), you don't need to burn an Ultimate for the fight with Tyrant while going for RHW, just keep in mind that you will be doing half as much damage.

Also means that a 50(+2) is basically half as effective as the 50(+3). Since Scourge isn't 100%, probably means a 50(+3) Blaster or Scrapper is a better choice than a 50(+2) Corruptor, despite the natural advantages of Corruptors with Tyrant.

And a "Pity spot" for a 50(+1) who's new to the trials, and doesn't have Ultimates? That's not looking good. Literally 1/6th as effective as the 50(+3) burning Ultimates. That character would be definitely boosting Tyrant (by adding to league size) more than would be helping.

One of the things about Justice server I've always loved is we are rarely elitist when forming teams or leagues or raids (at least in my experience). It seems to me that the general attitude is "Come one, come all. If you can't pull your own weight, we've got plenty of other people who can pick up the slack. You'll learn a lot about this, and we'll feel good about helping you out." I've seen this with Incarnate Trials, Hami Raids, and Master runs of TFs. I've been on teams where we've said in tells "We've got 3 solid players who know each other and 5 people who've never done the STF before. We can still pull off the Master run as long as the 5 listen and don't actively grief us. And we can get these guys the badge."

I think you have to make an exception to that for Really Hard Way. Personally, I'd say 50(+3) only. Maybe a 50(+2) or two, if they are a really good debuff set Corruptor.

Personally, I do NOT like like being that selective, but this is the most difficult badge in the top trial in the game. Hopefully people can understand that doing other trials and "leveling up" is a good idea before tackling something this challenging. (And it's not like we won't bring along a 50(+1) on a regular Magi trial. It's just the RHW runs that run into this Level 54(+5) monster.)

And everybody has to have at least an Ultimate for that final push around 30% health on Tyrant. I myself have gifted Ultimates to players with less Influence / Astral Merits for RHW runs, and I think that's a great way to ensure success. Make sure *everybody* has those Ultimates, make it clear in league to the more casual players that others will help them out if they just speak up and say they don't have any Ultimates.

Although, I'd say over half the time, you explain that you just buy them from Astral Christy for 2 Astral Merits, and a lot of people realize they have a huge stock of Astrals sitting around from other trials, and are glad to find a use for them. And for other people, buying an Ultimate for 20 million a pop on the Auction House is a nice way to burn influence before the game shuts down.


I'm a published amateur comic book author: www.ericjohnsoncomics.com
******MA Arcs****
Arc 5909: "Amazon-Avatars"
Arc 6143: "Escalation" (Nominee: Architect Awards, Nominee: Player Awards, and Dev's Choice!)

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
There's no question that -resist is one of the only meaningful debuffs in this contest. Normally, -regen factors heavily into this kind of encounter, but Tyrant is completely immune to that - he has over 100% resistance to regen debuffs. That makes -res and -maxHP about the only things we can do to him that speeds him to defeat, and of those two, -res is far more available to us in large doses.
Hm. One thought that I just had regarding keeping the -Resist on Tyrant: Tanker Bruising.

It's only a 20% Resist debuff, but if I remember right, it has a little mechanical quirk where it's not a direct debuff, but rather it grants a power to the target that then debuffs the target. This was done to prevent Bruising from stacking from multiple tankers.

The upside of that is, since the source of the power becomes the target, it's not impacted by level differences. It's still reduced by Resistance, but it shouldn't have the 30% reduction in debuff strength from the level difference. Unless they changed that at some point.

We should remind Tankers to use that Tier 1 attack from their secondary often on Tyrant. (although, I assume most Tankers know to do this in AV fights). Need a Tanker or two to pull Tyrant out of the Lightning anyway, so people can go back to attacking.

Edit: And the -Resist procs from Achilles' Heel and Fury of the Gladiator work the same way, with a granted -resist power. So, they should bypass level differences too.


I'm a published amateur comic book author: www.ericjohnsoncomics.com
******MA Arcs****
Arc 5909: "Amazon-Avatars"
Arc 6143: "Escalation" (Nominee: Architect Awards, Nominee: Player Awards, and Dev's Choice!)

 

Posted

I don't mean to suggest that -res wins the battle with Tyrant. I DO mean to suggest that a minimum level of -res is necessary, but not sufficient by itself. And the minimum is very high. I've seen quite a few runs in which the players were excellent (mostly or all +3's), Ultimates were used, and deaths were low, but which just did not succeed. I was on many, many of these runs, usually playing a sonic/sonic defender because the -res power is the thing I thought would contribute the most to the success of the league.

This last run was very ably led by UberGuy, and that was critical. The idea of getting that many Corrs was smart and, most of all, it worked.

But I still think -res is a missing ingredient. It will be interesting to see if this proves to be true in future runs. With regard to -400% as a rough number, I am simply adding up the -res levels my character's powers deliver in a normal fight -- I don't know how much that is reduced in the tyrant fight.

But my sonic/sonic defender puts disruption field on a skilled tank (like Bionic Flea...someone who can jump, fight and survive), and then cycles sonic syphon, shout, and shriek as fast he can...usually I get a stack of 4-6 of these. Usually that's 100% to occasional peaks of 140% of nominal resistance debuff, but the number is fluctuating. "Over 100%" is a good assessment as an average...perhaps 105-115%. But it drops if I have to move too much to avoid the lights... Of course, I've tuned my defender to max recharge and accuracy. By contrast, my NA Corr (which actually got the badge), peaks on -res in the 40-44% range. Even thermal controllers (I have two) can't match a sonic for -res debuff.

As time goes on, we can see how this works out. Maybe -res is not the unappreciated factor that I think it is. We'll know from the next few sets of runs.

But the main point is -- now I have a starting point to see, since UberGuy led such a great Magi run!


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shagster View Post
Edit: And the -Resist procs from Achilles' Heel and Fury of the Gladiator work the same way, with a granted -resist power. So, they should bypass level differences too.
I think I remember reading that they changed the way these and bruising work so that they no longer do this. However, that might have just been something they planned to "fix". I have not tested it. I have a Tanker I can slap something around with in order to test it.

And no, I never mentioned the scale difference in damage for folks with and without Ultimates. Credit to Shags.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA