Thought Exercise: Revising Old Sets
By
Bionut911,
Posted on: 2012-05-08 13:16 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Okay, so not huge or even that interesting, but you wouldn't gain or lose much if you choose either. Both are viable choices (or should be balanced as such). Okay here's a couple more advanced ideas. I'd imagine blast sets would have more powers swapped because they simply have a lot of powers with varied uses (snipes, nukes, controls) so somewhere in the real of 4 power choices added:
Fire Blast
Reason: It's a legacy set made to be an all-or-nothing deal. It has very little mitigation but grants extra damage. You don't have a choice in that matter, you have to deal with it. So why not have some options that give some of that damage back for some mitigation? But not just hand it right over, the extra damage would be there but you'd have to *actively* put yourself at more risk to get it and if you don't? No biggie. Also, some don't like the crashing nuke...
Fire Blast theme- Fire manifestation
-Fire Flies > Flares one or the other. Fire Flies would do a bit less damage than flares and would be spread over a 3 tic DoT over 3 sec. It would also have a high -movement debuff to the foe. I'd imagine the animation would be exactly like Call Swarm but the bees would be made of fire. This power would also have a chance of granting you 1 stack of 'Enflame'.
-Flame Hawk > Fire Ball one or the other. Flame Hawk is a cone that causes some moderate fire damage to all in it's wake and extra lethal damage to the actual targeted foe. All foes hit by this have a chance to be knocked down. While this power does slightly less damage than Fire Ball and over a longer activation, it has a chance to grant 1 stack of 'Enflame'.
-Manifest Flame > Rain of Fire one or the other. Manifest flame is a target granted temp power that will set the target on fire (no accuracy needed) and grants the foe 'Enflamed'. Enflamed basically causes wherever the foe is standing to catch fire and harm any foes within 10ft. This also causes 'avoid' which will ensure the target spreads the flames but mind you, this has less area range than Rain of Fire and does not scourge. This power has a chance of granting 1 stack of 'Enflame' to you.
-Phoenix Fall > Inferno one or the other. Phoenix Fall is a targeted area nuke that reduces your HP by 100%. It does the same damage as Inferno but at range. As you activate the power, you're granted stacks of 'Enflame' depending on how much HP you have although you'll always get at least 2. If you use Phoenix Fall at 80% HP or more, you automatically get 5 stacks of 'Enflame'
-Enflame are simply 'modes' that allow your fire power to manifest around your body. 2 stacks will grant you the 'Enflamed' temp power for 15 seconds and just like the actual power, anywhere you step is set ablaze and can cause the foe damage. 3 stacks will grant you a moderate amount of defense to fire attacks and 5 stacks will grant you the temp power 'Phoenix Rise'. Some points:
- While the attacks that grant stacks of Enflame do less damage and over a longer activation, they also have mitigating effects added.
- Even with just 1 power that grants Enflame stacks, it'd be possible to get the temp powers as well.
- The temp powers would either be instantly granted upon acheiving a certain number of stacks or appear in a temp tray.
- One can keep up the 'Enflamed' temp by attacking and cause more damage by taking more risks and moving within the foe's melee attack range.
- Phoenix Rise is a self-rez that simply grants 8 seconds of untouchable, 30% HP and 50% END. One only has to achieve 5 stacks and you get the temp power for 20 sec. Even if you die, you'll still have access to this power.
Too complicated? Okay, well what about this one:
Energy Blast
Reason: People always complain about the knockback and means to mitigate it. I don't agree that we should be able to just cut it off but having alternate powers so you don't have to have KB in everything would at least help those players somewhat. Also, some don't like the crashing nuke...
Energy Blast theme - Rocket Propulsion
-Rocket Thrust > Power Burst one or the other. Rocket Thrust would simply have no knockback. Instead, this power would repel you backward. Rocket Thrust and Power Burst would have similar animations (and identical cast times) but where PB would mitigate the enemy, RT would grant the user temporary flight (8 seconds) and propel the user further from the foe they're targeting as it's dealing damage...if you don't like the flight, talk to the Gull but it will always repel the user backward. RT also grants the user 1 stack of 'Rocket Propulsion'.
-Comet Strike > Power Push one or the other. Comet Strike would be an downward arcing ball of energy that would strike the enemy and knock them high into the air and inflict -fly on the target. Comet Strike also grants the user 1 stack of 'Rocket Propulsion'.
-Comet Rain > Explosive Blast one or the other. Comet Rain would do the same damage as Explosive Blast but activate much slower (I'd put it at the same activation as Breath type attacks) and acts as a placed targeted AoE like Rain of Fire. This power has no secondary effects besides granting the user 1 stack of 'Rocket Propulsion'. This would do the same damage as Explosive Blast and I'd imagine the animation would be throwing a beam up that then scatters and rains down on the foe.
-Take Off! > Nova one or the other. You engulf yourself in so much energy, it harms you as you take off into the sky at the speed of light. Take Off is a PBAoE nuke with the same damage as Nova with the added benefit of teleporting you away from the area afterward. You simply target a place like you would Teleport and you nuke the place you stand and appear where you target. Take Off costs a moderate amount of endurance but debuffs your Max HP and Healing by 50% for 30sec. This also grants the user 5 stacks of 'Rocket Propulsion'.
-Rocket Propulsion would be unique to these powers and grant the user +movement, resistance to -movement, -fly and immobilization. If you don't like the added movement bonus, talk to the Gull. These stacks should last a moderate duration (15-20 seconds or something). As long as you're fighting, you'll be zipping around rather easily.
- 2 stacks of Rocket P. grants the user Energy Slide, an auto power that grants fast unsuppressed run speed. Don't like it, talk to the Gull.
- 4 stacks of Rocket P. grants the user Rocket Booster, a flight power with fast unsuppressed movement that costs no endurance. This power appears in a temp tray.
- 5 stacks of Rocket P. grants the user Flash, an instant mid-range teleport power. No hover, instant cast, recharges in 10 seconds. This power appears in a temp tray.
Whew...anyway, I guess this is more me re-imagining the old sets as possibly a little more...or in the case of some set ideas, accommodate for certain preferences. What do you guys think? Any ideas?
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I like these ideas, aside from rocket thrust. Forcing movement away from the enemy is just as bad as scattering them to the four winds. |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Energy Blast theme - Rocket Propulsion
-Rocket Thrust > Power Burst one or the other. Rocket Thrust would simply have no knockback. Instead, this power would repel you backward. Rocket Thrust and Power Burst would have similar animations (and identical cast times) but where PB would mitigate the enemy, RT would grant the user temporary flight (8 seconds) and propel the user further from the foe they're targeting as it's dealing damage...if you don't like the flight, talk to the Gull but it will always repel the user backward. RT also grants the user 1 stack of 'Rocket Propulsion'. -Comet Strike > Power Push one or the other. Comet Strike would be an downward arcing ball of energy that would strike the enemy and knock them high into the air and inflict -fly on the target. Comet Strike also grants the user 1 stack of 'Rocket Propulsion'. -Comet Rain > Explosive Blast one or the other. Comet Rain would do the same damage as Explosive Blast but activate much slower (I'd put it at the same activation as Breath type attacks) and acts as a placed targeted AoE like Rain of Fire. This power has no secondary effects besides granting the user 1 stack of 'Rocket Propulsion'. This would do the same damage as Explosive Blast and I'd imagine the animation would be throwing a beam up that then scatters and rains down on the foe. |
Although, your comet strike and comet rain sound like REALLY interesting concepts for an "Energy Control" type of set. Technically a human being's body is FILLED with energy. WHy not allow a hero to "tap" into that energy through the use of a tether/whip. Like the hero recahes foreward, lifts his arms in the air, and pulls one arm up. While an enemy is hurled into the sky from your control of his body's energy. Much like a ball and chain.
-Take Off! > Nova one or the other. You engulf yourself in so much energy, it harms you as you take off into the sky at the speed of light. Take Off is a PBAoE nuke with the same damage as Nova with the added benefit of teleporting you away from the area afterward. You simply target a place like you would Teleport and you nuke the place you stand and appear where you target. Take Off costs a moderate amount of endurance but debuffs your Max HP and Healing by 50% for 30sec. This also grants the user 5 stacks of 'Rocket Propulsion'.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
I like this Idea. You could make it a targeted AoE and Teleport onto self. So you execute the attack, the animation leads you hurdling towards the target. Then you are teleported to the place where you executed the attack. I love it :3 Although, it would make a much nicer crash nuke then -HP nuke...blasters die enough
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Not that I'm honestly asking for this to be added to the game but...|
Originally Posted by Bionut911
I like these ideas, aside from rocket thrust. Forcing movement away from the enemy is just as bad as scattering them to the four winds.
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How so? One of the primary complaints about KB is that other people complain about it. This isn't even KB and considering the secondary effect is having heightened unsuppressed speed 20 or more seconds afterward...
But the goal of that particular example wasn't to 'eliminate knockback', it was varying it. I didn't suggest all the powers have a secondary option that substituted KB for something else for that very reason.
Anyway, I'm more or less curious if 're-imaginings' of old sets by giving a few alternate options for powers would be worthy of the time it'd take to implement them.
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| I like this Idea. You could make it a targeted AoE and Teleport onto self. So you execute the attack, the animation leads you hurdling towards the target. Then you are teleported to the place where you executed the attack. I love it :3 |
Sorry if my reply was a bit clustered. Dinner was calling so i was in a bit of a rush. >.<
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I really like the RP mechanism, it seems chaotic but fun for solo play. |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Not that I'm honestly asking for this to be added to the game but...
How so? One of the primary complaints about KB is that other people complain about it. This isn't even KB and considering the secondary effect is having heightened unsuppressed speed 20 or more seconds afterward... |
My kind of set! The only thing I was a bit iffy on was the user being propelled backwards. I like to stand and blast, but hey, some people might like to zip back and blow up their enemies. That's just my opinion. I'm not saying its a bad suggestion or anything. Quote:
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Anyway, I'm more or less curious if 're-imaginings' of old sets by giving a few alternate options for powers would be worthy of the time it'd take to implement them.
In that case, why not just make it a targeted or placed AoE and cut the teleport? |
Explosive blast would be a riot if the animation was a bit more fun. I imagine something like a Character swinging a flail over their head. Instead of a metal ball on a short chain, you get an energy tether (that extends towards your target from above) with an energy sphere on the end. On impact it explodes. It's much more dynamic and simply badass than "AHA! I thrust my arms forward and you fly everywhere! "
Between all of the animations, I think the current power burst has the most overpowering animation. That one handed blast just makes me feel awesome, sort of like how a TW character feels when they use whirling smash, arc of Destruction, and titan sweep. Energy blast could totally use something dynamic and engaging for the KB it provides. It would feel more fun and be extremely engaging to a player.
I think the teleport would be more fun thematically. Essentially it's a flashy animation for a targeted AoE Nuke. Nova has such an impressive sound, i think it would make due with a more impressive animation than the current one. Something like.
- Teleport above target (kind of like spring attack)
- Slam said enemy into the pavement, fast animation. Sort of like Spring attack again.
- Explosion/Crash Nuke
- Streak animation away from the target to your original posision. Where you re-appear.
Technically, It's not needed at all.
It makes me think of what the flash would do to enemies if he has SS. bahaha. Appear of their heads, crush them to the ground in an instant, then zip out to safety. Like a boss.
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If you consider the alternative, Power Burst has a good chance to mag 3+ Knockback a foe, the net effect is probably exactly the same, open distance between you and your target.|
Originally Posted by Bionut911
I like to stand and blast, but hey, some people might like to zip back and blow up their enemies.
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But going back to the primary thought of the OP, I'm sure I could conjure up some more ideas for additional themes to old powersets therefore needing just a few extra powers added to the set SoA style.
But what I've pondered so far:
Broadsword: A berserker mechanic.
Katana: A samurai mechanic.
Fire Blast: fire conjuring
Energy Blast: self propulsion
Force Field: some absorb buff for allies that 'shatters' into energy projectiles that harm and knockdown foes when it expires (probably an alternative to one of the knockback powers in the set)
Empathy: apathy powers that debuff foes' ToHit, damage and recharge, perhaps as ally targeted PBAoE toggles or self PBAoE toggles
....Pondering the idea, I'm imagining it'd only be particularly worthwhile for only some of the sets; Blasts, Melee, (De)Buff and *maybe* Armor. Why these? Well, they're shared by the most ATs. Adding options to those 3 covers every primary AT...well, except Doms...Hmm...
Anyway, the idea is diversifying the set's abilities by providing alternate options. Depending on how they're balanced, for instance, Force Field could have something like...
Force Fields
-Hexashield > Deflection Shield adds +absorb to a target (single target only). Upon destroying the hexashield on the target, it explodes in a wide (15ft) PBAoE that does minor energy dmg and debuffs foe's ToHit.
-Barrier Armor > Insulation Shield adds +absorb in an AoE around target. Upon destroying the Armor on the target, it explodes in a wide (15ft) PBAoE that does moderate energy dmg, debuffs Damage and Recharge.
-Flux Barrier > Repulsion Field a self toggle that adds a small amount of +absorb that does not stack every 4 seconds. If the barrier is destroyed, it will cause moderate PBAoE dmg and knockback all in range. The barrier will reform soon after.
-Barrier Fortress > Repulsion Bomb a placed pseudo pet that will grant a special absorb pet to allies that absorbs part of their damage. Upon destruction, it will explode into a small 8ft AoE, causing minor energy dmg around that pet. So long as allies stay in range, it will continue to grant the pet every 5 seconds until this power expires (15 seconds). Basically, a pseudo attack that gets magnified by how many allies get buffed (and that take damage).
So, a FF support character taking all those powers will find their ability to buff team defense limited but gain debuffing properties and damage instead. This might be worth using if the team doesn't need much defense or one may just opt to mix options...or they can choose by theme.
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The +Absorb addition to bubbles is interesting. I mean There is essentially NO hint as to what happens when a forcefield breaks currently...It's just assumed that it dissipates. Having some sort of explosition would be neat. |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
If you consider the alternative, Power Burst has a good chance to mag 3+ Knockback a foe, the net effect is probably exactly the same, open distance between you and your target.
But going back to the primary thought of the OP, I'm sure I could conjure up some more ideas for additional themes to old powersets therefore needing just a few extra powers added to the set SoA style. But what I've pondered so far: Broadsword: A berserker mechanic. Katana: A samurai mechanic. Fire Blast: fire conjuring Energy Blast: self propulsion Force Field: some absorb buff for allies that 'shatters' into energy projectiles that harm and knockdown foes when it expires (probably an alternative to one of the knockback powers in the set) Empathy: apathy powers that debuff foes' ToHit, damage and recharge, perhaps as ally targeted PBAoE toggles or self PBAoE toggles ....Pondering the idea, I'm imagining it'd only be particularly worthwhile for only some of the sets; Blasts, Melee, (De)Buff and *maybe* Armor. Why these? Well, they're shared by the most ATs. Adding options to those 3 covers every primary AT...well, except Doms...Hmm... Anyway, the idea is diversifying the set's abilities by providing alternate options. Depending on how they're balanced, for instance, Force Field could have something like... Force Fields -Hexashield > Deflection Shield adds +absorb to a target (single target only). Upon destroying the hexashield on the target, it explodes in a wide (15ft) PBAoE that does minor energy dmg and debuffs foe's ToHit. -Barrier Armor > Insulation Shield adds +absorb in an AoE around target. Upon destroying the Armor on the target, it explodes in a wide (15ft) PBAoE that does moderate energy dmg, debuffs Damage and Recharge. -Flux Barrier > Repulsion Field a self toggle that adds a small amount of +absorb that does not stack every 4 seconds. If the barrier is destroyed, it will cause moderate PBAoE dmg and knockback all in range. The barrier will reform soon after. -Barrier Fortress > Repulsion Bomb a placed pseudo pet that will grant a special absorb pet to allies that absorbs part of their damage. Upon destruction, it will explode into a small 8ft AoE, causing minor energy dmg around that pet. So long as allies stay in range, it will continue to grant the pet every 5 seconds until this power expires (15 seconds). Basically, a pseudo attack that gets magnified by how many allies get buffed (and that take damage). So, a FF support character taking all those powers will find their ability to buff team defense limited but gain debuffing properties and damage instead. This might be worth using if the team doesn't need much defense or one may just opt to mix options...or they can choose by theme. |
The only thing is moderate energy damage? With the one shot-team bubble thing going on now. Moderate damage x8 would be insane...Especially during an AV fight where they can nearly 1-shot squishies. I'd say there is a high chance of him 1shotting everyone's bubble, getting a carpload of energy damage. Then you re-applying.
If it were a chance to inflict moderate energy damage...sort of like a proc, along with gauranteed to-hit debuffs it would be fantastic!
I'd use it on a bubbler.
You know... all of this seems like a whole lot of work to fix things that aren't broken. (Excepting, maybe, Force Fields.)
Especially when you start adding power tree selections to some sets. Because if such choices get added to ONE set, the Devs will need to add them to ALL sets.
So no. I'd like alternate animations for the weapon sets, and yeah, Force Fields is one of those sets in need of a Dev Tune up, but these drastic changes are not needed.
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One has to consider what one loses though. What can regular Force Fields do? Make it so the foe hits your allies practically 5% of the time. Even if one took every absorb shield instead of the defense shield, a FF'er still has defense buffs that will decrease the chance of their team being hit. Not only that, but you'd have to be applying that 1 absorb quite alot since it's single target only and the AoE one would likely have a moderate cooldown.|
Originally Posted by Bionut911
The +Absorb addition to bubbles is interesting. I mean There is essentially NO hint as to what happens when a forcefield breaks currently...It's just assumed that it dissipates. Having some sort of explosition would be neat.
The only thing is moderate energy damage? With the one shot-team bubble thing going on now. Moderate damage x8 would be insane...Especially during an AV fight where they can nearly 1-shot squishies. I'd say there is a high chance of him 1shotting everyone's bubble, getting a carpload of energy damage. Then you re-applying. If it were a chance to inflict moderate energy damage...sort of like a proc, along with gauranteed to-hit debuffs it would be fantastic! I'd use it on a bubbler. |
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Originally Posted by OneWhoBinds
You know... all of this seems like a whole lot of work to fix things that aren't broken. (Excepting, maybe, Force Fields.)
Especially when you start adding power tree selections to some sets. Because if such choices get added to ONE set, the Devs will need to add them to ALL sets. So no. I'd like alternate animations for the weapon sets, and yeah, Force Fields is one of those sets in need of a Dev Tune up, but these drastic changes are not needed. |
And just like Energy Blast's knockback, there's really nothing wrong with Force Fields either. It works just fine...yet you think there needs to be something to 'fix' it? Well what about Trick Arrow? Or Sonic Resonance? Electric Blast? Or Ice Melee? There's plenty of sets some deem 'need help' in some eyes and work fine in others.
As for needing to add trees to all sets? Not necessarily. The newer sets can already function diverse enough. It's the old sets, when new sets that start to tread into their themes (like Street Justice is to Martial Arts...Ice Blast was the only set on the block with any significant cold damage but that won't be the case when Water Blast debuts) would it begin to warrant adding a bit of flare. Because the old sets have little flare at all.
That all said, I find it a bit humorous that when others actually put forth this idea of expanding powersets, people acknowledge it's a lot of work but still an accepted interest. When I try to suggest it, and try to put a system to it, it's suddenly a waste of time. Lol the idea is basically a pass on the Cottage Rule, giving sets that could use a tune up an option for versatility as well as visual options (that just might be recyclable to the other powers they replace!).
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...you suggested adding powers to a completed set, to inlude mechanics like 'foced uncontrollable player motion' in lieu of knockback, while adding a purely non-combat utility mechanic to the set. And you call this 'Mitigating the Knockback Problem?' I call it 'Trying to Fix Something that Isn't Broken by Adding a More Annoying Gimmick.'|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
And I suppose you do not feel there are any issues with sets like Energy Blast's knockback? I don't think there's an issue with knockback itself so an option to eliminate it is *NOT* the solution. Options to mitigate it? I think it's doable.
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| And just like Energy Blast's knockback, there's really nothing wrong with Force Fields either. It works just fine...yet you think there needs to be something to 'fix' it? Well what about Trick Arrow? Or Sonic Resonance? Electric Blast? Or Ice Melee? There's plenty of sets some deem 'need help' in some eyes and work fine in others. |
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| As for needing to add trees to all sets? Not necessarily. The newer sets can already function diverse enough. It's the old sets, when new sets that start to tread into their themes (like Street Justice is to Martial Arts...Ice Blast was the only set on the block with any significant cold damage but that won't be the case when Water Blast debuts) would it begin to warrant adding a bit of flare. Because the old sets have little flare at all. |
"Wait! Broadsword now has ten powers? Energy Blast has thirteen? But what about Titan Weapons? What about Super Strength? All sets need alternate powers!"
That's a far more likely scenario. If the devs go for this, they better be ready to expand all current and future power sets to the new model... and I just think it isn't necessary.
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| That all said, I find it a bit humorous that when others actually put forth this idea of expanding powersets, people acknowledge it's a lot of work but still an accepted interest. When I try to suggest it, and try to put a system to it, it's suddenly a waste of time. Lol the idea is basically a pass on the Cottage Rule, giving sets that could use a tune up an option for versatility as well as visual options (that just might be recyclable to the other powers they replace!). |
Second, would I LIKE to see some of these changes? SURE! But is it practical? Heck NO! I am pointing out that what you are ultimately suggesting is a complete overhaul of how powersets work in the game. And frankly? I find it more likely that they will work on a CoH2 before tackling such a massive reworking that you are proposing.
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You're right that it's not specifically a problem with KB (there are niche uses for powers like e.g. Gale, which you can use to move spawns around, or Bonfire, which you can use to block tunnels or keep terminals free of enemies), but adding 1 extra attack that comes after level 32 isn't going to fix the set, either. The set's problem is it has random unreliable (i.e. <90% proc chance) KB that kills your AoE damage and cannot be relied on for mitigation at the same time. So, just change everything in energy blast to KD, probably leaving 1 attack with 100% KB in it. Problem solved, no cottage rule broken.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
And I suppose you do not feel there are any issues with sets like Energy Blast's knockback? I don't think there's an issue with knockback itself so an option to eliminate it is *NOT* the solution. Options to mitigate it? I think it's doable.
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| And just like Energy Blast's knockback, there's really nothing wrong with Force Fields either. |
I would love it if the dev can re-visit some of the old sets instead of creating new ones all the time (although it's hard to charge people money for the old sets. 
)
Yes, I think Broadsword and Ninja Blade need to be more different. Guarded Spin sets a good example of how "Parry" type of power should be. Parry should do more damage so it doesn't seem that bad of an attack in an attack chain.
And yes, Force Field needs to be a bit more versatile.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
I don't believe a dev team can possibly keep up with all the "Change this. Change that" and also create the new sets which does more for their bread and butter.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Would you guys pay (maybe less points than 800?) for a pretty dramatic "revisit" of the old sets like the ones suggested here? I would.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Correction: it has *A Mechanic* (singular) of forced player motion. Only Rocket Thrust entails movement. Take Off can very well be placed at the spot you're standing resulting in no movement.|
Originally Posted by OneWhoBinds
...you suggested adding powers to a completed set, to inlude mechanics like 'foced uncontrollable player motion' in lieu of knockback, while adding a purely non-combat utility mechanic to the set. And you call this 'Mitigating the Knockback Problem?' I call it 'Trying to Fix Something that Isn't Broken by Adding a More Annoying Gimmick.'
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But it was simply a unique thought exercise.
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| Okay, in and of itself, there is nothing wrong with Force Fields. But like... well, all the other sets you mentioned in that passage... it's been showing its age for quite a while. Remember that "What Powersets need Help" thread? I'm sure you do. And gee... Force Fields, Trick Arrow, Sonic Resonance, Electric Blast, and Ice Melee all came up multiple times durring it. There is a reason for that. |
Not sure where you're getting at with this but the point I was making with what you quoted and replied to was, some people like those sets how they are or have a particular quirk with certain sets that could be redeemed easily with more options.
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Yeah... you have more faith in our fellow players than I. Me? I forsee this reaction: "Wait! Broadsword now has ten powers? Energy Blast has thirteen? But what about Titan Weapons? What about Super Strength? All sets need alternate powers!" That's a far more likely scenario. If the devs go for this, they better be ready to expand all current and future power sets to the new model... and I just think it isn't necessary. |
"Wait! Broadsword has 9 powers? What about Titan Weapons?"
Response: Titan Weapons already has momentum + a defense bonus cone. The end.
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| Second, would I LIKE to see some of these changes? SURE! But is it practical? Heck NO! I am pointing out that what you are ultimately suggesting is a complete overhaul of how powersets work in the game. And frankly? I find it more likely that they will work on a CoH2 before tackling such a massive reworking that you are proposing. |
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Originally Posted by Laevateinn
You're right that it's not specifically a problem with KB (there are niche uses for powers like e.g. Gale, which you can use to move spawns around, or Bonfire, which you can use to block tunnels or keep terminals free of enemies), but adding 1 extra attack that comes after level 32 isn't going to fix the set, either.
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I won't implore the two of you to reread my OP, but instead I'll just explain it as most likely I was just unclear. This idea isn't adding another power after lvl 32 at all, it's adding an alternate power when a specific tier of power is available. i.e. Parry is available at level 8, Visceral Slash would also be available at level 8. This wouldn't require an overhaul to how powersets work, the tech to do that is already available in the Soldiers of Arachnos sets. Widows can select the power Follow up which is a +ToHit and +Dmg attack *OR* Build up with is a +ToHit and +Dmg buff and choosing one makes the other unavailable.
Also, the tech to add powers to pools has also been used before. Travel pools and epic pools have had a 5th power added to them since the game has been rolled out.
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| The set's problem is it has random unreliable (i.e. <90% proc chance) KB that kills your AoE damage and cannot be relied on for mitigation at the same time. So, just change everything in energy blast to KD, probably leaving 1 attack with 100% KB in it. Problem solved, no cottage rule broken. |
Of course, that's my opinion. No need to argue that point.
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| When you consider the metagame where there are numerous ways to get high defense, and when you consider that there are support sets which offer high defense boosts while also bringing other powerful, valuable abilities to the table (Cold, Time, Dark etc) then there's a pretty serious problem. |
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
I don't believe a dev team can possibly keep up with all the "Change this. Change that" and also create the new sets which does more for their bread and butter.
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I don't agree with you here for the same reason I don't agree with much of the criticism of staff fighting that compared it to titan weapons: guarded spin is far and away the best parry-style power in the game. Defensive sweep is, I suppose, the new "average" one while the old ones "trade" better buffs for worse utility as an attack. One of the problems with saying that everything should be like the best example of its type is that this would rapidly lead to power creep if everything were held to that standard. Another problem is that considering a power in isolation is unfair since they're all just components of full sets and the real question is whether they are balanced as parts of those sets. Finally, I think it would be more interesting to distinguish these sets from one another in ways along the lines of Leo's suggestions rather than homogenizing them by "upgrading" them to be more similar.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
Yes, I think Broadsword and Ninja Blade need to be more different. Guarded Spin sets a good example of how "Parry" type of power should be. Parry should do more damage so it doesn't seem that bad of an attack in an attack chain.
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All of that said, I think they'd take a lot of flak if they charged for set revamps and it would lead to the odd situation where one broadsword scrapper would be very different from another because one of them shelled out and the other didn't. I personally would pay for revamps to some of my once-favorite sets but it would be wiser of them to do it for free.
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That would depend. IMO, the melee sets don't need much. Although adding versatility at the cost of speciality might be an options. All in all, I think 1 or 2 power options added to the old melee sets would be fine and I would pay 800 points for the collective addition (so about 10 old melee sets which equals about 14 or 16 new powers). |
Originally Posted by Jibikao
Would you guys pay (maybe less points than 800?) for a pretty dramatic "revisit" of the old sets like the ones suggested here? I would.
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The blast sets, I feel, could use a lot more alternatives as they have lots more utility powers in them. I'd pay for individual sets like pools for however much they'd charge for the new upcoming 5 power pool-sets.
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Also, just wanted to add to this because I forgot to edit it when I read and replied to those other posts.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
That's easy. This isn't a 'Change this, change that', it's an 'add this, add that'
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Yes, it's easier to 'add this and that' vs 'change this and that' because changes have to be data mined and tested on a different metric and also receive feedback from players if the changes are desirable and acceptable. If a player doesn't like a change, that is a very disruptive thing but if a player doesn't like an addition? Well, don't use it.
Also, I don't pay the devs *not* to keep up with escalating demands.
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I was only thinking of making Parry a decent ST attack but with +defense or maybe a combination of other buffs to distinguish Ninja and Broadsword. Yeah, Guarded Spin (a good cone attack) is indeed a very high standard to match but it sets a good example of how a +defense power could be like. |
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
I don't agree with you here for the same reason I don't agree with much of the criticism of staff fighting that compared it to titan weapons: guarded spin is far and away the best parry-style power in the game. Defensive sweep is, I suppose, the new "average" one while the old ones "trade" better buffs for worse utility as an attack. One of the problems with saying that everything should be like the best example of its type is that this would rapidly lead to power creep if everything were held to that standard. Another problem is that considering a power in isolation is unfair since they're all just components of full sets and the real question is whether they are balanced as parts of those sets. Finally, I think it would be more interesting to distinguish these sets from one another in ways along the lines of Leo's suggestions rather than homogenizing them by "upgrading" them to be more similar.
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I don't even care if it has to be +defense. I would trade for half +defense but with +tohit or +recharge or +recovery.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
The two Blast sets that I think can use a good re-visit is Energy Blast and Electricity Blast. Energy Blast is just sooooooo average and Electricity Blast is missing that "chain of lightning" effect that you see in so many games and in Elec Melee.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Okay, not a new idea and I'm sure I even made a thread once about it but I'm actually curious how others would flow with the idea, what ideas you guys may have or if it's even desirable.
The idea: expand the legacy sets from 9 powers to more than 9 but some being exclusive power choices. The thought is, the newer sets get interesting or even advantageous mechanics added to them to vary their playstyle from other similar sets (i.e. Kinetic Melee's Power Siphon and Concentrated Strike's insta-recharge mechanic, Titan Weapon's momentum, and other various 'new' mechanics ripe for use) while the older sets are...well, straight. Nothing wrong with straight but there's room to add onto. For looks, to offer alternate choices for legacy effects without taking away options, for added uniqueness, for fun and for theme. There's many reasons one could add alternate powers to the old sets.
I'd personally limit these to older legacy sets primarily because...well, let's just start with those. I suppose ideas for the newer sets are a possibility too but I'm mainly looking at the older sets. I'll start out with some easy sets. I'd start with a melee set because I feel these probably need the fewest added options, just 1 to add some variety to choices:
Broadsword and Katana
Reason: mainly because the two sets are practically the same except with different animations and slightly altered numbers. Beside that, I really think Broadsword could use a bit of help.
Broadsword theme- Berserker
-Visceral Slash > Parry you get a choice of one or the other. Visceral Slash is a moderate dmg ST attack with a slightly longer activation. I'd imagine a 3-slash animation, the last slash being a turn and a wide back-hand swing. While Parry grants defense to lethal and melee, Visceral Slash grants +ToHit (10%) and +Rech (15%) and has a chance to grant the user 1 stack of Berserker's Rage. 3 stacks of Berserker's Rage will instantly recharge either Whirling Sword (Slice for Stalker) or Headsplitter depending on which is still recharging.
Katana- Samurai
Tameshigiri > Sting of the Wasp again, a choice of one or the other. Tameshigiri (or Test Cut) is a fast activating moderate damage attack that grants the user 1 stack of 'Trained Hand'. With each stack of Trained Hand, you have a very small chance of all your Katana attacks applying a -HP and -Heal debuff. With 5 stacks, you get a 100% chance to debuff a target (or targets depending which attack you use) by -10% max HP and -50% heal. This does not stack with the same user and when the debuff procs, all 'Trained Hand' stacks are reset.