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If I'm going to use nova, I prefer to use a range defense-capped build for that; I also use the posi dmg/range in nova emanation, so I'm not as concerned about being too close.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
I understand damage sustainability models, a Warshade would normally have to try and guarantee itself a best case scenario. I seen a good one, but it was a AE mission so you can tailor it so its bang on ideal.
Our old forums (european) had Dr Rock, who had a package much like MIDs that worked out average damage sustainability for you. He tried to give it to me to carry on with should there be future changes XD. Anyway, you chose your powers, your slotting just like in Mids and it came up with damage sustainability figures versus each damage type for you. Relying on shields alone and never thinking outside of the shield box is a mistake people can make. Sometimes when you can't quite softcap defense you have to look at the enemy and wonder what their weaknesses or limitations are, and how you can capitalize on them. How else can you lower dps to self? Capitalization might not be made from being human form, but instead from being in Nova form which would of course be less DPS dished out by you and so slow yet potentially safer. Plus Nova form to me can be bit more end friendly, end friendlier enough when you haven't got anyother targets for lunch. A case maybe for a Novas optimal attack chain but in doing a target that takes sometime to take down, isn't the question going to be "Isn't it more likely that the Nova will run out of end too soon with that attack chain?" To each persons build, their own. |
As far as survivability calcs go, they are not actually very difficult. You just find the average health you regain per second from all sources, and divide that by chance to be hit times 1-resistance.
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Just out of interest, lets say you make this ranged soft capped build and used the Blast>Emanation>Blast>Detonation attack chain. What will run out first, an even level AVs health bar or your endurance bar? It's 4:16 am here I should sleep. So plenty of time if you cared to work it out. I'd have a bash later.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Even without corpses to empower our Stygian Circle, I hardly ever have endurance problems as a triform. Most my toggles don't even get turned on. Orbiting Death is the only one I use to sustain AoE damage while ST DPSing an EB/AV/GM.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
Plus Nova form to me can be bit more end friendly, end friendlier enough when you haven't got anyother targets for lunch.
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Besides, nothing a good Ageless couldn't help with, eh? Debuff resistance is extremely useful to Kheldians.
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Quote:
Not all AVs are the same. You can't always rely on the same methods as one method is safer than another. I don't have endurance problems without Stygian Circle either in Nova. The attack chain that is optimum has an eps, the ers of the build has to be greater than that eps. Now some peoples builds might take Incarnates to do something about it but these maybe Incarnates that they might not want to be shoehorned into really. I tend to think of things without Incarnates much like Dechs would without Inspirations anyway. Someone may do things now with Incarnates that could or have been done before without, so to me, it's like popping insps and no big deal.|
Originally Posted by Diggaroo
Even without corpses to empower our Stygian Circle, I hardly ever have endurance problems as a triform. Most my toggles don't even get turned on. Orbiting Death is the only one I use to sustain AoE damage while ST DPSing an EB/AV/GM.
Besides, nothing a good Ageless couldn't help with, eh? Debuff resistance is extremely useful to Kheldians. |
Softcapping Nova as a means to do all AVs without sustenance is not going to have you do all AVs as they differ. Alot of peoples characters can do some AVs and not others especially preincarnate. You're riding on your luck with some AVs, relying on defense and its just a matter off time before they do you. Some AVs you do not have to rely on luck at all by way of what their attacks and travel powers are and Nova is geared up to aid in this.
Softcapping a Nova is going to take a build that many wouldnt want as it takes away from doing other things with the build. The rest of the build looks rather unappealing. Use Human form where Human form can get the job done, you would anyway, as it is common sense, then Nova form where it might be better. Human form can ride on some luck to get the job done. In some cases where Human form won't get the job done, a Nova with a slow and steady attack chain, above an AVs regen, not softcapped, not shoehorned into a incarnate that aids end recovery can stand a better chance.
All I did for an exercise is take AIBs build, change 5 slots in Nova and move 1 slot and it was good to go iirc. The two single target attacks offer the best DPE versus a single target and can overcome an AVs regen and that would do. I keep saying that one of Novas strongpoints is its range and it can be built on. Not all AVs have its level of range or a travel power like fly. Some might have its range but then lack in DPS when it comes to that range. Some might have its range, have pretty decent DPS but it doesn't mean you have to go out and get softcapped to range. You can have a reasonably all round build. I know a 2 Billion build might stuff a 25 Billion build in PvP. When it comes to AVs you have to think like a PvPer, you play to win.
If it weren't for Novas range plus exemplaring usefulness I possibly wouldn't Triform. I'd be Biform.
Having changed AIBs build again I feel like I am looking at different numbers. No idea whats up with that. Guess I never gimped it the same way.
Edited for clarity.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Ah I see what you're getting at. I wouldn't ever attempt to softcap Nova though, simply because the fact I find it dull at times lol. I love blasting multiple enemies, but for single target I find my human form rotation more interesting and leaves me with more available powers.
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Quote:
I made that build almost a year ago, and it is endurance sustainable. If you are having problems with end in this situation, you can wait until you are almost out and hit Geas. You will lose a little defense for a minute, but it would more than double the time you can sustain your chain.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
Just out of interest, lets say you make this ranged soft capped build and used the Blast>Emanation>Blast>Detonation attack chain. What will run out first, an even level AVs health bar or your endurance bar? It's 4:16 am here I should sleep. So plenty of time if you cared to work it out. I'd have a bash later.
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If your primary issue is that you would like to have human potential in the same build, my primary build still has nova and can be used in the same way. I just prefer to use the range-capped build if I know I will be using nova. It retains perma-eclipse, sunless mire and gravitic emanation, so I'm not losing functionality.
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Yeah I wouldn't either.|
Originally Posted by Diggaroo
Ah I see what you're getting at. I wouldn't ever attempt to softcap Nova though, simply because the fact I find it dull at times lol. I love blasting multiple enemies, but for single target I find my human form rotation more interesting and leaves me with more available powers.
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Human form for most endeavours when soloing AVs. Nova form for some endeavours when soloing AVs. When Human form might not handle certain AVs in melee, Nova form might handle them at exceptional range. DPS might be so much lower 30% is ample range defense, maybe even less, maybe even no defense. Overcoming an AVs regen with a sustainable attack chain is all you have to worry about and that's not always going to be hard to achieve.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Quote:
Seeing as you are the brains behind everything...I was trying to prompt you into doing a build |
Originally Posted by Microcosm
I made that build almost a year ago, and it is endurance sustainable. If you are having problems with end in this situation, you can wait until you are almost out and hit Geas. You will lose a little defense for a minute, but it would more than double the time you can sustain your chain.
If your primary issue is that you would like to have human potential in the same build, my primary build still has nova and can be used in the same way. I just prefer to use the range-capped build if I know I will be using nova. It retains perma-eclipse, sunless mire and gravitic emanation, so I'm not losing functionality. |
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
i once saw a video clip of someone soloing an AV on a human only WS, but it was setup in AE with a bunch of fodder mobs to feed the machine
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Here it is...|
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
i once saw a video clip of someone soloing an AV on a human only WS, but it was setup in AE with a bunch of fodder mobs to feed the machine
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http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...ade+soloing+AV
I am almost certain that I am using a wrong formula here, but a level 50 AV should have 28271 hp (From Paragon Wiki) and regen at 5% every 15 seconds (From Paragon Wiki also) which equates to 94.24 hp/sec regen.
Therefore any attack chain putting out more than this can solo an AV assuming you can A: survive, and B: have enough endurance.
A human form using a gapless Grav Well > Shadow Blast > Essence Drain > Shadow Blast chain with a well slotted Orbiting Death, and assuming Sunless Mire hits will put out ~160dps (Based on my build in another thread that is linked below) so damage is not the issue.
The issue is survivability, a lot of which is based from Eclipse, and endurance.
I think that using a combination of the last build posted by TwoHeadedBoy (Which is very survivable) and the build I posted in this thread (For the damage) it would be quite possible assuming you pick the right AV. Something like Chimera would be a good start iirc, all s/l damage.
I haven't really got the inf to spend respeccing just for this so it isn't going to be me doing it, but anyone who want to should be able to do it, even using the no temps, no insps rule the scrappers do.
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
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Aha! The truth comes out |
Originally Posted by New Dawn
Seeing as you are the brains behind everything...I was trying to prompt you into doing a build
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Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
I am almost certain that I am using a wrong formula here, but a level 50 AV should have 28271 hp (From Paragon Wiki) and regen at 5% every 15 seconds (From Paragon Wiki also) which equates to 94.24 hp/sec regen.
Therefore any attack chain putting out more than this can solo an AV assuming you can A: survive, and B: have enough endurance. A human form using a gapless Grav Well > Shadow Blast > Essence Drain > Shadow Blast chain with a well slotted Orbiting Death, and assuming Sunless Mire hits will put out ~160dps (Based on my build in another thread that is linked below) so damage is not the issue. The issue is survivability, a lot of which is based from Eclipse, and endurance. I think that using a combination of the last build posted by TwoHeadedBoy (Which is very survivable) and the build I posted in this thread (For the damage) it would be quite possible assuming you pick the right AV. Something like Chimera would be a good start iirc, all s/l damage. I haven't really got the inf to spend respeccing just for this so it isn't going to be me doing it, but anyone who want to should be able to do it, even using the no temps, no insps rule the scrappers do. |
You realize that I've already soloed AV's up to 53 in level, right?
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Originally Posted by Microcosm
Under absolutely ideal circumstances, the only thing with higher potential survivability is a tricked out stone/dm tank (excepting psi damage). I have never seen the absolutely ideal scenario in game, however, and in practice you will likely vary around top end scrappers and tanks.
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The overall point I was making is that Warshades are so survivable that using Nova form and the outrange tactic against an AV is not only detrimental to damage output but completely unnecessary in the first place. I can see the appeal of nova form for the AOE, but without toggle suppression and faster animations I don't think it's even worth using it.
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Was just putting the math to it for anyone who wants to try a build (Turn out it isn't as hard as I thought. I saw your ITF so knew you had soloed AV's with insps.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
You realize that I've already soloed AV's up to 53 in level, right?
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Did you do any with no temps/no insps at any point?
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
Was just putting the math to it for anyone who wants to try a build (Turn out it isn't as hard as I thought. I saw your ITF so knew you had soloed AV's with insps.
Did you do any with no temps/no insps at any point? |
No I have yet to do anything like that, I've been spending most of my in game time on my Blaster recently (still trying to get all his Incarnate stuff) but I'm sure I'll get back to doing things on my Warshade again soon. I never used temps on my shade, but I'm sure at least a lvl 51 would go down easy enough without inspirations. I used lore pets for my solo ITF a while back so I didn't bother making a spectacle out of it, hah.
From my experience a well played and build Warshade will only die to user error.
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