Can we get rid of Demoralize, then?

Leo_G · 03-12-2012 01:15 AM

I am finding....so little use out of it now. It was nice when we first got it, and is still a cute trick now...but it's a shoehorned fix that doesn't play well with the new-shiny Stalker. Everyone seems to be happy with them now and it probably has nothing to do with Demoralize.

I will say, it's fun to kill things with AS but it's a major drain on END for just pure damage...I wouldn't suggest lowering the END cost though, just rather the attacks had thematic secondary effects to go along with your string of attacks:

Assassin's Blade/Assassin's Slash: -def probably wouldn't be all that useful but perhaps -res vs lethal damage to the target? Or maybe a splash of -def in a 10ft radius (think of it as blood splatter making the foes weary and uneasy)

Assassin's Claw: Another tricky one. Perhaps a KDoT (knockdown over time...like Arctic Breath in Mako PP) on the target. Think of it like you're cutting the foe's tendons and it's hard for them to stay on their feet.

Assassin's Blades: I would say, since it's worked into two combos, it kind of already has a secondary effect. But beyond that, perhaps some self ToHit buff + foe def debuff to help it nail those combos with more certainty?

Assassin's Eclipse: Love that skull. Perhaps a mag 3 terrorize on the target or a bit of -ToHit or possibly a splash effect (debuffing foes within 8ft of the target).

Assassin's Shock: A mag 3 sleep with some -recovery would be great and wonderfully thematic. Sock a foe with this and they're writhing and wiggling for 6 or so seconds.

Assassin's Strike: This is the infamous one that all the assassin moves take their name from (the one from energy melee...). Give it a low mag/moderate duration stun plus some knockdown for good measure.

Assassin's Strike (Kinetic/Street Justice): I think, of all the sets, these are the ones that don't need help. The sets already have a gimmick above the others (kinetic recharges BU with Concentrated Strike and street justice has 2 combo points on this attack + Crushing Uppercut is practically another AS). Just add a bit of -dmg for Kinetic's and be done.

Assassin's Blow: Since we're talking about Martial Arts here, an internal injury along with an external injury would be nice. Basically some -regen, -heal and/or -Max HP.

Assassin's Impaler: Hmm, the very same suggestion (-regen, -heal and/or -Max HP) but for the toxins/imaping the foe causing the effect.

And we're talking about losing a 30ft irresistable 7.5% ToHit debuff + 25% chance of a mag 5 fear for this, which isn't so bad just situational and non-thematic.

Hopeling · 03-12-2012 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo_G

It was nice when we first got it, and is still a cute trick now...but it's a shoehorned fix that doesn't play well with the new-shiny Stalker. Everyone seems to be happy with them now and it probably has nothing to do with Demoralize.

I like Demoralize, and find it situationally quite useful. Admittedly, my stalker is KM, so my AS is faster than other sets and thus easier to use, but both on teams and solo I find it at least sometimes worthwhile as damage mitigation.

I wouldn't argue against secondary effects for the various AS powers, but a minor damage debuff to one target INSTEAD OF demoralize would be both less useful and less interesting, at least for me personally.

Edit: An equally useful effect would be fine, though. Like, just for example, an AoE -damage -speed debuff for KM? It's more thematically appropriate, but useful in roughly the same way.

Premonitions · 03-12-2012 01:45 AM

I've argued for thematically appropriate secondary effects in place of demoralize for forever so /signed.

Anyone Who wants to argue about my usual foolishness can find me here.
https://twitter.com/Premmytwit
I'll miss you all.

Leo_G · 03-12-2012 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hopeling

I like Demoralize, and find it situationally quite useful. Admittedly, my stalker is KM, so my AS is faster than other sets and thus easier to use, but both on teams and solo I find it at least sometimes worthwhile as damage mitigation.

I wouldn't argue against secondary effects for the various AS powers, but a minor damage debuff to one target INSTEAD OF demoralize would be both less useful and less interesting, at least for me personally.

And as a Kinetic Melee user, you have to remember: you've been enjoying the sweet life. While other sets, like Dark Melee isn't directly compensated for the exchange of the more effective Soul Drain, or Energy Melee getting practically nothing extra out of it's higher tier powers, or Martial Arts losing all of its AoE, Kinetic Melee gets arguably equal milage out of Build up and Stalker's reliable means of refreshing it and 100% crit chance from Hide on Burst.

That you'd get a simple dmg debuff INSTEAD OF demoralize should be considered a gift considering the devs probably have their eye on taking away one of your other tools (talking about that crit chance on Burst). That is, what I'm trying to say is Kinetic Melee isn't in a position to bargain for anything.

Hopeling · 03-12-2012 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo_G

That you'd get a simple dmg debuff INSTEAD OF demoralize should be considered a gift considering the devs probably have their eye on taking away one of your other tools (talking about that crit chance on Burst).

...do you have any basis for that statement, other than your opinion? Any at all? A single dev quote or action that even vaguely implies it? It appears to me that KM just received two huge buffs (AS, and indirectly the ATO proc, which benefits KM possibly more than any other set), which would be an odd thing to do if they're considering nerfing it. Certainly, the stalker revamp patch would have been an opportune time to make such changes. I'm expecting the AS cast times to be standardized across the sets, which will mean KM's gets slower; if you're talking about changes other than that, you're gonna have to provide at least a shred of something that looks like evidence, before I allow you to totally dismiss my opinion.

But let's forget KM for a moment. I talked about it because it's the only stalker set I've played since i22 hit, but it's not my only stalker. My Nin/Nin stalker would not be at all happy with losing Demoralize either, not for a def debuff that's just as worthless as the def debuffs on my other attacks. An equally useful, but more thematically appropriate effect would be fine.

Moreover though, you seem to be talking about removing Demoralize and replacing it with an all-the-time secondary effect on AS, which I disagree with totally. I like and use Demoralize as it is. If it's replaced, I want it to be with something roughly analogous in function.

Edit: Wow, sorry, that came out way more aggressively than I intended it. Your comment rubbed me the wrong way, but yeesh, this came out much more confrontational than I meant it.

Further edit: On a hopefully more constructive note, is there a particular reason that Demoralize-or-equivalent AND all-the-time secondary effects isn't on the table?

Leo_G · 03-12-2012 03:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hopeling

...do you have any basis for that statement, other than your opinion? Any at all? A single dev quote or action that even vaguely implies it? It appears to me that KM just received two huge buffs (AS, and indirectly the ATO proc, which benefits KM possibly more than any other set), which would be an odd thing to do if they're considering nerfing it. Certainly, the stalker revamp patch would have been an opportune time to make such changes. I'm expecting the AS cast times to be standardized across the sets, which will mean KM's gets slower; if you're talking about changes other than that, you're gonna have to provide at least a shred of something that looks like evidence, before I allow you to totally dismiss my opinion.

Wasn't dissing your opinion, more stating that I don't think it's necessary to add more onto KM because it has many extras and options already. As for proof, I don't feel like digging through those posts at the moment but it was mainly talk by other posters on some dev statement about the 100% proc on Fireball was a bug (which got changed). Even if nothing does come of it, KM has PLENTY to boast about as is.

Quote:

My Nin/Nin stalker would not be at all happy with losing Demoralize either, not for a def debuff that's just as worthless as the def debuffs on my other attacks. An equally useful, but more thematically appropriate effect would be fine.

Moreover though, you seem to be talking about removing Demoralize and replacing it with an all-the-time secondary effect on AS, which I disagree with totally. I like and use Demoralize as it is. If it's replaced, I want it to be with something roughly analogous in function.

And when one considers the ease and frequency of use, this factors into the strength of whatever effect is being added. It also should factor what attack was given up for AS. Some sort of offensive boost would be appropriate for AS's that replaced a strong AoE, or the magnitude be slightly more effective instead. For utility powers, utility effects and so on.

I don't think it's required that whatever replaces Demoralize has to be analogous, because the purpose of Demoralize was to help survivability of a frail AT and *that* changed with the various HP buffs. Since Scrappers did equal or more damage and could take an alpha+tank, Stalkers were given demoralize to aid a team instead...well Stalkers don't need that anymore, plain and simple.

Quote:

Further edit: On a hopefully more constructive note, is there a particular reason that Demoralize-or-equivalent AND all-the-time secondary effects isn't on the table?

Why do you feel we shouldn't have to give things up in order for things to be improved on in other ways? This confounds me, that the population of these forums seem to all think this way. Just buff it and buff it and buff it...you don't have to counter anything, just slap more ontop....It's all fine and dandy for you, after you have your nice shiny power, but it only leads to more people comparing one set to another...or one AT to another...

Why did Dark Melee get -ToHit debuff added along with demoralize? Now it can debuff way more than other set...Why does Energy Melee get knockdown that just wastes demoralize? It's not as good as the others....Why do Stalkers get crazy DPS, team-aid debuffs and an alpha-breaker while Scrappers don't get anything of the sort? Why do Stalkers get a pass on higher HP if they're suppose to be frail? What about the frail Blaster's HP?

It all just leads to more and more buffs if you don't try to counter it. I'm only suggesting changing demoralize because it's really not very useful anymore. With a Stalker buffed for HP, you're not that squishy. With high powered ST attacks or AoEs, you don't need to start with AS anymore. With new AS, you're using it more often *during* a fight vs from hide/at the start and since Demoralize does not stack with multiple applications, it's automatically more situational and therefore less useful.