Quote:
Mostly due to the pets, actually. Mire is not remotely as significant a factor as 3 pets blasting away.
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Originally Posted by Timeshadow
Thanks to Sunless Mire. But that being a variable buff makes it hard to factor into the discussion.
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Originally Posted by Microcosm
Mostly due to the pets, actually. Mire is not remotely as significant a factor as 3 pets blasting away.
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The point we were just discussing was Tri Form Shades doing more AOE damage than Peacebringers without pets. You are changing the subject Mr. Microcosm.
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If you're capping mire targets, sure. However, in human, even capping the human mire and using Quasar is likely going to still be less AoE over time than a human PB, simply because the latter has more and better options for frequent AoE.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
At 300% damage? Pfft. No contest. We are talking about AOE damage, which isn't reasonable to discuss if there's no Mire targets. Without Mire targets, there's no need to talk AOE. Also, MFin' shades can use Quasar without blinking an eye. Peacebringers don't get a free pass for their blue bar.
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Quote:
| The point we were just discussing was Tri Form Shades doing more AOE damage than Peacebringers without pets. You are changing the subject Mr. Microcosm. |
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But I said MFing which is a Warshade's best option for AOE output. Comparing that to a Peacebringers' best option for AOE output, which is human form, Warshade's top AOE trumps Peacebringer's best AOE without even considering fluffies. And I disagree. Environment is a factor, and a Human Form Peacebringer chasing down their targets every time they attack is likely to hit half of their target cap with their AOE's after the alpha strike due to all the KB.|
Originally Posted by Microcosm
If you're capping mire targets, sure. However, in human, even capping the human mire and using Quasar is likely going to still be less AoE over time than a human PB, simply because the latter has more and better options for frequent AoE.
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Quote:
| You gotta watch me about that kinda thing :P |
We don't really disagree, I just got off on a tangent comparing individual forms because the MFing style of being all forms at all times does not work for me without toggle suppression *coughdevs*
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Nitpick: The Peacebringer's top AoE form is Nova, provided you drop to human form to unleash photon seekers occasionally.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
But I said MFing which is a Warshade's best option for AOE output. Comparing that to a Peacebringers' best option for AOE output, which is human form, Warshade's top AOE trumps Peacebringer's best AOE without even considering fluffies. And I disagree. Environment is a factor, and a Human Form Peacebringer chasing down their targets every time they attack is likely to hit half of their target cap with their AOE's after the alpha strike due to all the KB.
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With an attack chain of bolt-blast-scatter-bolt-blast-detonation, an SO'd Nova's AOE damage output, given slotted attacks and weighted for build up is
1,660 points of total damage per attack chain cycle against an average of three targets (let's use the rwz dummies in this example). If you were to translate that to total dps it would be 148 AOE dps. (I distinguish AOE dps here because calculating dps against multiple targets is a bit oversimplified when aoe and single target attacks are taken into account)
That same build's human form attack chain of IS-RS-GEye-GBlast-Flare-RS GEye-GBlast yields 1,906 points of damage for a higher burst but a lower AOE dps of 122.
Throw in Photon Seekers/Dawn Strike at the end and you're looking at 1,056 extra points of burst damage for each, provided the nova drops to human. Used over time, those two attacks add around 50 dps to the overall score (Assuming Dawn Strike's crash is mitigated with CS or blues).
So human form will always have 50 dps added for a total of 172 AOE dps, and Nova form has to close to melee range and drop to human every time DS and Seekers are recharged to get the same boost to 198 AOE dps.
Now the argument could be made that DS and Seekers are human form attacks, and shouldn't count when comparing human to nova damage, but then I'd have to point out that - like the mf'ing warshade - a triform peacebringer is properly played as ALL FORMS AT ONCE. What's good for the WS is good for the PB.
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I also have to disagree with this statement:
Quote:
An SO'd Black Dwarf with an attack chain of mire-strike-smite-drain-strike-smite will do (with sunless mire weighted in) 1,059 points of damage to those same three rwz dummies I used above for 114 AOE dps.|
Originally Posted by Microcosm
White Dwarf is roughly comparable to Black Dwarf in AoE.
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An SO'd White Dwarf with an attack chain of flare-strike-smite-strike-smite-strike (pauses excluded) will do (with inner light factored in) 942 points of damage for 92 AOE dps.
So not even close.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Nitpick: The Peacebringer's top AoE form is Nova, provided you drop to human form to unleash photon seekers occasionally.
With an attack chain of bolt-blast-scatter-bolt-blast-detonation, an SO'd Nova's AOE damage output, given slotted attacks and weighted for build up is 1,660 points of total damage per attack chain cycle against an average of three targets (let's use the rwz dummies in this example). If you were to translate that to total dps it would be 148 AOE dps. (I distinguish AOE dps here because calculating dps against multiple targets is a bit oversimplified when aoe and single target attacks are taken into account) That same build's human form attack chain of IS-RS-GEye-GBlast-Flare-RS GEye-GBlast yields 1,906 points of damage for a higher burst but a lower AOE dps of 122. Throw in Photon Seekers/Dawn Strike at the end and you're looking at 1,056 extra points of burst damage for each, provided the nova drops to human. Used over time, those two attacks add around 50 dps to the overall score (Assuming Dawn Strike's crash is mitigated with CS or blues). So human form will always have 50 dps added for a total of 172 AOE dps, and Nova form has to close to melee range and drop to human every time DS and Seekers are recharged to get the same boost to 198 AOE dps. Now the argument could be made that DS and Seekers are human form attacks, and shouldn't count when comparing human to nova damage, but then I'd have to point out that - like the mf'ing warshade - a triform peacebringer is properly played as ALL FORMS AT ONCE. What's good for the WS is good for the PB. |
Are you factoring animation times of switching in and out of Nova for Photon Seekers in the DPS totals for Bright Nova vs. the pure Human output? Also, what the hell is an SO?
On a high recharge Human build, Scatter>Detonation>Flare can essentially be chained endlessly, fitting in Seekers (and Dawn Strike if you so choose, which isn't really practical to use) so there's no need for those ST attacks. What you'd have to look at for an accurate high end comparison is the DPS of that chain vs. a Nova chaining Nova Scatter>Nova Detonation and the animation time for shifting plus Photon Seekers. Also, they're both going to provide very theoretical numbers as it doesn't account for the massive KB in the chains making it very difficult to hit the target cap after the alpha strike.Edit: These are crude numbers not accounting for -res procs or Inner Light. I'm using my previous Human build and AIB's Tri Form Peacebringer build as my sources. Chains are estimated.
t4 reactive/t4 spiritual
Human:
Scatter>Detonation>Scatter>Flare
Scatter: 2.376c 139.9d
Detonation: 1.848 134.4d
Scatter: 2.376 139.9d
Flare: 2.244 188.1d
602.3/8.844= ~68.1 DPS
Now to fit in Photon Seekers.The chain takes 8.844s and the build I'm using has Photon Seekers on a recharge of 49.37s so 49.37/8.844=~6 times through the chain before Seekers can be used.... At this point I'll actually have to stop because I don't know where to find damage values for Photon Seekers. I guess they'll have to be admitted from the results, but that's okay- We can assume Human Form will get better results using them as there is no extra animation time shifting to Nova.
Bright Nova
Bright Nova: 2.244c
Bright Nova Scatter: 1.716c 208.4d
Bright Nova Detonation: 2.64c 192.9d
401.3/6.6= 60.803 DPS
(The Nova shift is assumed in the chain which seems relatively fair to me since that's about how often the player will have to shift out of Nova to heal themselves/hit Light Form/hit Inner Light/hit Hasten/etc.)
Builds used...
Luminarious (my retired PB)
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Quote:
Just to point something out. My peacebringer uses the "Polar Lights" lore pets...which essentially are wisps with bright nova's ranged attacks. If they simply took the seeker animation and rigged it for a polar light...a PB would essentially have it's own "Extracted essence" so to speak. |
Originally Posted by Timeshadow
Right, right. The Extracted Essences definitely do more damage than Photon Seekers. Probably because they don't feel the need to go all suicidal as soon as an enemy's in range.
In all seriousness, the nature of the pets is inherent to their damage disparity. I'd be for the Devs taking another pass at Seekers and seeing what could be done to make them more on par with Essences. |
You could summon one at a time as well, just like essences.
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No. The numbers I gave assumed a single burst of damage from once through on the attack chain, with Photon Seekers and Dawn Strike at the end. I went ahead and extrapolated for extended chains, but got lazy.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Are you factoring animation times of switching in and out of Nova for Photon Seekers in the DPS totals for Bright Nova vs. the pure Human output?
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They DO, however, take the form change for inner light duration, since this is cast at the beginning.
Quote:
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Also, what the hell is an SO?
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Quote:
| On a high recharge Human build, Scatter>Detonation>Flare can essentially be chained endlessly, fitting in Seekers (and Dawn Strike if you so choose, which isn't really practical to use) so there's no need for those ST attacks. What you'd have to look at for an accurate high end comparison is the DPS of that chain vs. a Nova chaining Nova Scatter>Nova Detonation and the animation time for shifting plus Photon Seekers. Also, they're both going to provide very theoretical numbers as it doesn't account for the massive KB in the chains making it very difficult to hit the target cap after the alpha strike. |
The builds you're using are end-game builds that only see use after 80% of the character's life is in the past. Until you get to that point (and for those few of us who do get to that point), Nova edges out Human in AoE.
Quote:
| Now to fit in Photon Seekers.The chain takes 8.844s and the build I'm using has Photon Seekers on a recharge of 49.37s so 49.37/8.844=~6 times through the chain before Seekers can be used.... At this point I'll actually have to stop because I don't know where to find damage values for Photon Seekers. I guess they'll have to be admitted from the results, but that's okay- We can assume Human Form will get better results using them as there is no extra animation time shifting to Nova. |
Kheldian Pets get their own special section on Red Tomax.
Photon Seekers will contribute 177.84 damage apiece when they explode, for a total of around 534 assuming they all explode.
So that's 2.244 seconds added to the chain (for arcanatime) and 534 damage. So that totals out to 1136.3/11.084=102.51 for human. Photon Seekers will be up about every 6th chain.
So [1136.3+(602.3*5)]/55.28=3011.5/55.28=54.47 final dps for human.
For nova, let's assume that you drop photon seekers at the end of the first chain, followed by shifting back into form for a total of 4.488 seconds of doing no damage. You're looking at 935.3/11.088=84.35 for one burst. Photon Seekers will be up every seven cycles of the attack chain.
SO [935.3+(401.3*6)/50.688=3,343/50.688=65.95 final dps for nova.
Huh. So the animation for Photon Seekers actually holds human's damage back in those equations.
BUT there's a disclaimer. Okay there's two disclaimers. First, my math might be wrong. I hate math. Second, it assumes that Nova is in melee range and therefore able to convince all seekers to actually explode. If you're using nova to range, You'll likely be S.O.L. for the full damage potential.
Discussions like these are exactly why I'd advocate taking the 45% damage buff away from nova and replacing it with a 45% increase to the base damage of Nova's attacks.
Nove is SUPPOSED to be the damage dealing form. It currently isn't doing its job.
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Quote:
This is what I have problem with Kheldian in general. Warshade is ok because the human form powers can be really good and you can bypass tanker form. |
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Nova is SUPPOSED to be the damage dealing form. It currently isn't doing its job.
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Nova form just sucks. It is only good when you first get it. For a Form that locks out all pool powers and restricts you from using any human form powers, it is highly over-rated. Nova form excels in aoe damage but it should also excel in ST damage because Nova form doesn't get to wear resistance toggles or use healing powers. Nova should be the most damaging form period and it isn't.
They can easily fix this by improving the attack chain. Just increase the recharge on Nova Bolt and Nova Blast so the base damage is higher (ratio 3s and 6s for example). Give it 20% recharge discount like the Claw set has because Nova is an offensive form. The current Nova Bolt has 1.5s casting time for a 1.5s recharge attack. That is just terrible DPA. Gleaming Bolt only has 1s casting time.
I've suggested that they can do something fancy with Nova form by giving it a +damage aura or -resistance on energy resistance.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Quote:
Was talking purely AoE attacks, which is almost exactly the same between the two dwarves on SOs.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
I also have to disagree with this statement:
An SO'd Black Dwarf with an attack chain of mire-strike-smite-drain-strike-smite will do (with sunless mire weighted in) 1,059 points of damage to those same three rwz dummies I used above for 114 AOE dps. An SO'd White Dwarf with an attack chain of flare-strike-smite-strike-smite-strike (pauses excluded) will do (with inner light factored in) 942 points of damage for 92 AOE dps. So not even close. |
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Quote:
I dunno. Even on SOs, if hasten is active, one Dwarf mire should active for the next. With ten targets, the difference in damage would be... probably pretty huge.
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Originally Posted by Microcosm
Was talking purely AoE attacks, which is almost exactly the same between the two dwarves on SOs.
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White Dwarf is roughly comparable to Black Dwarf in AoE.
Which Nova is better depends on how many targets you hit with mire.
HumanPB AoE >>> HumanWS AoE.