[Proposal] Rebuild Ninja MM Pets from the ground up

It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...

See my Guides and Tutorials

*snort*

Nascar Ninjas ...

Personally, I think that the "mix" of stuns and knockdowns on the first three tiers of powers in Kinetic Melee, not to mention the damage buff/debuff effects, make for a better "fit" with Ninjas just on the game mechanics side of the page ... never mind the "lights and sounds" part of things. I do imagine that it would be relatively easy to have Genin use alternate sound files for their Kinetic Melee attacks, where the volume is just toned down (by half? two-thirds?) so that they aren't quite as "noisy" as Player AT attacks.

And just because it's interesting to do the cross-comparison with Martial Arts ... here's how the powers would stack up if swapping out Kinetic Melee for Martial Arts:



Call Genin: +15% Defense vs All, +50% Resistance vs Confuse, -2.0 Confuse Mag Protection, +200% Resistance vs Taunt, +2780% Jump Height, +249% Jump Speed, +85% Run Speed

• Martial Arts - Thunder Kick (Stalker recharge: 3s)
• Martial Arts - Storm Kick (Stalker recharge: 6s)
• Weapon Mastery - Web Grenade (Stalker recharge: 8s)

Train Ninjas: +5% Defense vs All, +15% Resistance to Defense Debuffs, -1.0 Confuse Mag Protection, +100% Resistance vs Taunt

• Martial Arts - Cobra Strike (Stalker recharge: 10s)
• Weapon Mastery - Shuriken (Stalker recharge: 3s)
• Ninjitsu - Hide (Stalker recharge: 20s) (Toggle)

Kuji-in Zen: +5% Defense vs All, +15% Resistance to Defense Debuffs, -1.0 Confuse Mag Protection, +100% Resistance vs Taunt

• Martial Arts - Dragon's Tail (Scrapper recharge: 14s)
• Weapon Mastery - Shuriken (Stalker recharge: 3s)
• Willpower - Rise to the Challenge (Scrapper recharge: 10s) (Toggle, Suppressed when Hidden)
• Martial Arts - Placate (Stalker recharge: 60s)

And just so you don't have to scroll the page to compare Kinetic Melee vs Martial Arts (in this context):

• Quick Strike vs Thunder Kick: 3s vs 3s
• Body Blow vs Storm Kick: 5s vs 6s
• Smashing Blow vs Cobra Strike: 7s vs 10s
• Burst vs Dragon's Tail: 15s vs 14s

Oh and for reference, Crippling Axe Kick has an 11s recharge, so it would be even slower than Cobra Strike. Just FYI.

What I take away from this (very nearly) 1-to-1 comparison of Kinetic Melee and Martial Arts for the purpose of "powering" Genin attacks is that Martial Arts would be slower and have a "shakier" attack chain, with significant pauses in it, than a comparable Kinetic Melee attack chain. Mind you, I'm not talking about the "look" of the animations of the respective powersets here ... I'm talking about how "well" the animations and recharge times "sync up" for making smooth, no pauses, attack chains. Kinetic Melee, on the other hand, would "flow" fairly smoothly through its powers with fewer pauses in the attack chain(s) over time, due to the fact that its single target powers recharge faster *and* have recharge times that are all Prime Numbers, which will aid in the deconfliction of melee attack power choices for the AI.

Also ... look at the mix of secondary effects on those powers in a direct, 1-to-1 comparison:

• Quick Strike vs Thunder Kick: 25% chance KD vs 10% chance Stun
• Body Blow vs Storm Kick: 20% chance Stun vs (nothing)
• Smashing Blow vs Cobra Strike: 33% chance Stun vs 75% chance Stun
• Burst vs Dragon's Tail: 50% chance KD vs 75% chance KD

And that's not including all the Damage Debuffing going on with Kinetic Melee, which has no counterpart in Martial Arts ... that's just looking at Stuns and Knockdowns. Add in the fact that Kinetic Melee in the context of Genin, as presented here will be cranking out Kinetic Melee attacks FASTER than they could Martial Arts attacks (because of Recharge time differentials), and things get skewed even further in Kinetic Melee's favor ... On Paper.

So I *do* get where you're coming from Bill in your criticism. I just happen to believe that Kinetic Melee is a far better "fit" for Genin than (the legacy) Martial Arts powerset is, in terms of Game Mechanics, and the effects those game mechanics have on the survivability of Ninjas as Mastermind Pets. Martial Arts really needs "more attacks" and/or "more global recharge" going for it in order to smooth things out than is really practical (in my opinion) in the context of Mastermind Pets.

When I started writing this up, I began with the two Shuriken attacks up front and put in Web Grenade last ... but then came to the realization that Web Grenade is "more needed" for Ninjas than a quick ranged attack like Shuriken. So I made Web Grenade the "default" ranged attack, with the Shuriken getting added (twice) by the Level 6 and 32 powers.

Yeah. It was one of those, "well why wasn't it done like this in the first place?" kind of things when I stumbled on the synergies involved. Of course ... to be fair ... the Weapon Mastery Epic Pool and Kinetic Melee weren't exactly "available" back in Issues 4-6 when Cryptic Studios was working on City of Villains and getting everything ready for that launch.

That's more about "Deconfliction" in the Pet AI Decision Algorithm than anything else. As we discovered with Custom Mobs in AE, when you give the AI "too many powers" it tends to "choke" on deciding what power to use next, causing gaps in attack chains (that shouldn't be there) and other weirdness. By giving Oni a set of Ranged Only powers, it should "help" the Decision Algorithm process better and position Oni better thanks to deconfliction with the (now omitted) melee attacks. Yeah, the Fire Sword powers were "cool" and all ... but the effects they had on the Pet AI Decision Algorithm were ... less than ideal.

It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...

Can't help it. I have a KM/SR Brute. Love playing her... but the sound effects just are jarringly *funny* to me. So I'll admit getting stuck on those. (And the animations. Swirly-swirly-punch! "Guess what I've got in my hand... and spin and spin and PUNCH to the head!")

But ignoring it and going with values and secondary effects, yeah, I can see it being more helpful.

Oni, I think I'm just so used to how it is NOW that I'm having a hard time thinking of how it'll play the way you're suggesting. Which isn't really a count against the idea itself.

(As an *overall* MM buff, I'd like to see MM attacks do a bit more damage - so I can actually finish off a runner, instead of shooting them and hearing them yell "Damn mosquito!" But that's neither here nor there. Though it "feels" more of an issue in bots and ninjas, to me.)

See my Guides and Tutorials

I'll be the first to admit that it would be NICE to have a "suppressed effects" option for Kinetic Melee ... that reduces the "light and sound" of the powerset to something that doesn't require Special Effects Gnomes(tm), bringing it more in line with a "Natural" powerset. But that's another argument that belongs in another topic (like Tunnel Rat's Art FX thread).

Fair enough.

This is where I'm thinking that "plenty of Immobilize powers" on the Ninja Pets will make all the difference (except against War Wolves, of course).

Taking that notion to its logical conclusion, you can't fix or change ANYTHING in the game once it's been released ... let alone make anything BETTER than it had been previously, because someone ... somewhere ... isn't going to like it. And to be fair ... NONE of the suggestions you'll find in this forum are "terribly likely" to be accepted and implemented.

I didn't offer this proposal in the expectation it was LIKELY to be accepted. I created it to demonstrate the "grass on the other side is greener" notion that not only Ninja Mastermind Pets could be done better than they have been (since Issue 6!) with the newer and more modern powersets and pools which make a better "fit" with Ninjas conceptually ... using a *pattern* of powers selection which could be easily ported over to other Mastermind Primaries and used to revamp other Pet Sets along similar lines (although I delve into this more in the thread in the MM forum).

That's more of a "kludge" than I'd want to put up with ... either as a Developer, or as a Player. The investment to develop the proposal remains essentially the same ... but the return on investment is (severely) lacking. That then becomes one of those "if you're going to do it at all, might as well do it for ALL rather than SOME" sorts of situations.

I'm not so sure that there would be a loss of damage with the Jounin. It would (of course) require testing to determine what, if any, DPS loss (or gain?) there might be with the changes I'm talking about ... in a holistic setting. Jounin might be less "bursty" on their damage, while at the same time able to throughput better sustained damage due to less scattering of targets (less KB+Fear, more Immobilize) and having more fast recharging powers to attack with. Jounin might also have dramatically improved survivability (vs some Foe Groups) due to the inclusion of Divine Avalanche (for additional Melee/Smash/Lethal Defense).

It's possible that a "mock up test" could be done for the differences could be done (approximately) using Architect Entertainment and creating Custom Mobs which could then beat on a Designated Reference Target (or a Player Character ...). It wouldn't be "exactly right" ... but you'd be able to get "close enough" to start drawing some conclusions. The real problem though is the mix of powersets I've chosen for this proposal won't exactly "convert faithfully" into AE all that well.

It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...

Though her kinetic melee would step on the toes of your genin a bit too much, and randomly, while we're at this, would you consider giving the Oni maybe something like O2 Boost to help with its support abilities AND bring it in line with it's description of being a warrior of fire AND WIND?

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.

*sigh*

Not true, but I'm not getting into a multipage argument about it any more. Read Arcanaville's (first) post in the version of the thread in A&T General.

Short form: The only way the "cottage rule" would no longer be a factor is if the devs said "The hell with it, we're just replacing everything randomly, regardless of what it does to the set or the game."

See my Guides and Tutorials

In point of fact, I seriously considered O2 Boost first before falling back on Cauterize. I actually had BOTH powers in the lineup for Oni in one draft, which would have made him a speed healing DEMON (or Oni, if you know your Japanese). Problem is that O2 Boost also carries with it a raft of anti-Mez Protection that would very quickly be deemed "unfair" if directly ported over, due to the number of Mez Protections offered (go look up the power), the duration of those Protections, and the recharge time of the power.

So yeah ... I considered it (already).

It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...

I think I will take your word for it, I've been asking this for awhile but my question ends up drowned out by more speculative posts (And by the time I see Arcana's posts, it's a heated debate with another poster who began with speculation). Though I still wonder what it means that they're changing two powers in such a way that it seems to not only add what can be slotted into them, but also subtract.

And to Redlynne, while I admit that O2 Boost's mez protection might be unbalance compared to cauterize with everything else considered, I, personally, would be willing to part with Rise of the Phoenix, hide, and placate on the Oni, if only by virtue of the fact that the former seems like it would be rather hard to code (NPCs seem to require VERY special coding to know how to rez one another, see the Geneticists of Crey and-... I don't think any other NPC can rez allies...), and the latter two feel a bit breaking to the Oni's theme as much as the oni themselves break the theme of ninja. (And giving them a hide/placate is possible anyway with the Smoke Bomb at level 18)

Though that's all just me, frankly.

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.

I agree with the notion that the Oni falls into the "Wha ...?" category as far as Ninjas go when it comes to conceptualizing them. Let's just say that if I'd been on the powers team during Issues 4-6 when Ninjas were first getting defined, I'd have argued against Oni as we know him today (costume wise), and gone with something different (as far as appearance goes).

Of course, I'd also have replaced the Level 18 power with Ninja Horde ... essentially a "redo" of Gang War, except using Pedestrian Citizens character models ... who then proceed to "wade in" and do a lot of Butt Kickery via Martial Arts as "Ninjas" under your control. But that's a completely different thread/topic from what I'm aiming for here.

It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...

funny, I had had a similar idea but it basically would have been a "Kage Bushin No Jutsu" sort of thing. it would have worked as a grant power that granted a specific version of phantom army to each tier of ninja so it would summon was looked like a "shadow clone" which would have done illusionary damage and such.

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.

I'm all for it ... for Ninja Masterminds (and their Ninjas). Question is ... are the Devs?

It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...