Opinions on MM secondaries

So after returning from another hiatus, I am trying to start up a new MM or two. My first mastermind was a ninja/dark. Overall I was not too happy with the way ninjas worked out, especially the Oni. I have been trying to start a bots MM, but I am having a hard time deciding on a secondary. I have read through the posts in the forums but I would like to hear some detailed opinions on any of the secondaries and their combo with bots. For some background, I do like playing support roles as well and I love to group when I can. In fact too much soloing in this game tends to bore me.

I have narrowed the list of secondaries to:
/ff - I like the defense, but will this one be too boring at later levels and is it helpful for incarnates?

/traps - This seems to be popular in the forums right now.

/pain - This one is support oriented, but not sure if it meshes well with bots.

/storm - I played a storm controller and I do like the set.

I have also been considering starting a demons/pain, demons/dark, or demons/thermal. As you can tell I am suffering from some serious indecisiveness.

Thanks in advance for any help.

X

Depends on what you want to do. I would personally say Traps is the best all-around, but it's certainly not the end-all be-all.

FF is getting a major buff in the next big patch, you'll be able to hit all your bots with one cast. This is going to make me revisit my own personal Bots/FF. As far as incarnate content, bubbles are still nice but not the gamechangers they are in lower levels. Again, the buff to make them TAoE will make them much more useful in leagues.

Pain is good if you want to be a healer. I personally don't like it too much on MMs, because of pet fragility I prefer to prevent damage instead of healing it. That said, if you like a good mix of heals, buffs, and debuffs it's not bad by any means.

I'm working on a thugs/storm right now, haven't decided what I think of it yet. It has a lot of knockback, which makes me wary, but also a lot of nice buff and debuff.

Of what you listed, I would personally go bots/traps or bots/FF, depending on how active you want to be. No set will do you wrong, though.

Edit: Incidentally, I agree that the Oni is kind of disappointing, though for me it's more based on concept. I wanted a kickbutt ninja master to cap out my ninjas, not a fire demon.

Hi - what SpacePope said about FF - the change will make a massive difference IMO.

I have a Demons/Storm MM, the /storm part is a lot of fun, chaotic and hilarious, and in effect gives you 2 extra pets to play around with. Don't know how it would roll with a Bots/ but I imagine you would be deadly and tough. It does have a lot of knockback, but if you are a conscienciouss teamer you can use the kb effects only when they don't affect your team and take an Epic/Patron to compensate. For example, I tend to not use Hurricane/Tornado so much on teams (until AV or "emergency!!" time) and use the Mu holds a lot more.

/Pain is an awesome secondary, very nice for teams, but yeah, it may not mesh well with bots.

/traps is a very popular secondary for Bots, but I haven't had personal experience so will hold my opinion until I do.

Enjoy!

I have both a Bots/Storm and a Demon/Pain at 50. Of the two, I prefer the latter because I spend a lot less time chasing mobs that run away/are knocked away from the storm powers. And he's more welcome on most teams as a healer with little KB, although the Bots/Storm is better against most AVs. Both are pretty good at mowing through reasonable-difficulty missions (I usually run 'em at +0/x3 or +1/x2).

Traps is GREAT regardless of any arch type you pick. You pretty much pick the same Trap core build across mastermind, defender or corruptor and you end up with a defense cap character. so I think the clear choice is Traps.

Demon wise I think with the new updates coming up Thermal is going to be very good. I didn't go thermal myself on my demons because I already have a 50 Robot FF that is a pain to play because of all the bubbling in groups, let alone solo. If I would have seen into the future I would have went thermal for my demon instead of pain.

I'm a few bubbles away from my pain build which I have to see how its going to pan out. Number wise it looks good on paper ( or mids ) but not sure how the play style is going to feel. Thermal just seems much more simpler and straight forward. I think due to the annoying AI issues, the last thing you need is to incorporate more confusion into masterminds or make the build more difficult to work.

As far as the other sets go, meaning storm, pain and dark to a much lesser extent. I think those are secondaries you pick when you already have your go to toons.

First off I really do believe storm actually needs some training. You need to learn how to push mobs back, but also how much you can push back before they spin off an object with hurricane. I can't tell you how many times I have been with a storm player that just keeps running into the mobs with hurricane running knocking things all over the place and out of the AOEs just placed moments ago. Bad storm players give it a real bad rap and hurt the set for everyone who has taken the time to learn how the powers work.

Pain set is about regen and healing, which is what thermal does. But thermal has buffs. As many will agree over time you come to learn that not getting hit in the first place is much better then trying to recover from being hit. Green numbers flying above your head is nothing but a security blanket. Though if you can incorporate high defenses with a high regen which is what I have done with Traps, you have a good combination. You are afforded enough time between hits to heal up with this combo. Thermal also offers this ability which is why I find it superior to pain.

With the Dark set my only issue is your getting your defenses through a hit debuff which can be resisted and the recharge on the toggle is too long when it drops. I have a Dark Electric defender which is great when the debuff is going but if the anchor runs off or dies or the toggle is resisted I notice it in seconds. Trying to keep him in place with fear and holds and roots always does not work. Further when your in the heat of a big fight and the toggle drops you're just not looking to see which next boss your going to place this toggle on. Your getting hit so much now that your any target is going to have to do. This also leads to a false sense of security in a group. Because team mates don't see these numbers and honestly many do not monitor anything. All they know is they appear to be very tough now. Once Darkest Night drops though they see very fast the error of their ways. Again depending on the team it could be the result of almost a team wipe, which again I have seen several times. Even trying to explain it some don't get it. Recently I told to stop dropping the toggle then or pick a better target. I just laughed as someone explained it a bit better then I could I guess.

To me, I would rather be happy having the choice of running 1/1 through 4/8 setting with traps then have to settle on what some storm players comment on running 0/3 or 4/1 with my first Mastermind toon. Currently I have 5 masterminds of which 2 are at 50 and 2 at lvl 46 so I can mess around with other not so op builds. Plus I have about another 10 assorted arch types level 50s in the stable as well.

Nutshell build your FOTM power house toons you can go to when you need to do something big and that will allow you the money and time to mess around with other odd builds a bit more.

Bots/Pain is very solid. Especially with some resistance uniques and a well-slotted World of Pain. +Recharge is your friend!

Thanks for the replies! So far I have been running a bots/ff in the hopes that the buff update will fix the tedium of the shields. I won't know for sure how enjoyable it is till I have the assault bot and everything is slotted. I did enjoy thermal on my corruptor and will definitely consider it for my demon build, but pain domination just sounds cool. As for the /storm set, I gave that to a lowbie corrupotor and will try it there for now.

Pain Domination IS pretty cool. I really liked the set on my MM, although it can be a bit eccentric with the healing. World of Pain is probably my favorite part of the set, as it brings a little bit of everything to the table. Who wouldn't want 19% (20 with Cardiac I'm pretty sure) extra resistance to all damage forms? Also, picking up leadership is a pretty good idea.


Fair warning, Pain can be merciless on the endurance bar as you ride to smoother ground (and I mean pain as in little pay-off for what you're tossing out on your pets during the lower levels). Blooms during the mid 20s, early 30s. Good set, just takes some extra effort.