Both have strong single target damage and are capable of defeating AVs with their damage output. Sonic will end up doing way more single target damage on teams because of its -res, while ice has amazing area damage, which sonic has none of.
So the short answer is that /ice have better AoE due to having blaster level damage in Blizzard and Ice Storm, while /sonic will be better against single targets due to the -res, so it depends on your strategy.
Also, my money would say that picking the AV appropriately and built for defense, any Storm Defender can solo AVs. Granted sonic may have an easier time, but I've solo'd them on my Storm/Psy (pre incarnate stuff even) and as long as you aren't trying to take down AV that is resistant to your damage type and that you can survive against it's doable.
Also I'm a little baffled by your feeling useless against hard targets, since hard targets are one of the places Storm Defenders really get to shine. You can use Snow Storm and not worry about the target dying right after you use it, if there's a single target to focus on Tornado can dish out pretty impressive damage, which when coupled with Freezing Rain certainly isn't useless.
Draggynn on Virtue: lvl 50 Storm/Psi, 1389 badges
Draggynn's Guide to Storm Summoning(Gale-Tornado, updated 6/25/2011)
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Oh, get the popcorn. I like this debate. Yes, more talk of my precious storm set.
I do wonder about Storm/Psy defeating an AV when it is doubtful he could solo a sky raider jumpbot before running out of end. Those nasty spawns are tough for defense psychic blast.
Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
Well that feeling may come from a few bad experiences, with a bad and immature build ( for example ice mistral in a 8 man safeguard back when they were new, I was unable to protect the team, perhaps not really through a fault of my own).
I'm still unsure about the choice but your commenst are very helpful!
Storm/Son is a terrific build. My very favorite 50 defender. The st damage is obscenely high if you build for it. I recommend /elec app for the st immob at which point that becomes part of your attack chain and you can totally drop the painfully slow shout. The -kb in elec fence lets you fully leverage nado and LS without them getting knocked around. Given the amount of -res sonic blast can layer those two pseudo pets can do astounding damage which lets you be a real boss (and higher) killer.
Storm/ice is a good toon, but there is no compelling reason to go that route over ice/storm corruptor imo. Whereas storm/son is considerably better at what it does than son/storm.
Against AV's storm tends to run into issues protecting a team. The -rech you deliver is basically nullified as is the knockback/down, as is the -tohit debuffing.
That basically leaves the set with a subpar st heal to help the team stay alive. That isn't to say storm isn't welcome against AV's because freezing rain and nado/LS are great against them, but in terms of protecting the team it is a weak spot for the set.
You can certainly solo some AV's with storm/son if that is your goal, but it isn't a premier build for that task. I know I specced my for that purpose and tagged a dozen or so of them no insp/temp style well before inherent stamina, but it isn't what the build is best for imo.
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**raises an eyebrow** Sorry, are you calling me a liar?|
Originally Posted by Psylenz
I do wonder about Storm/Psy defeating an AV when it is doubtful he could solo a sky raider jumpbot before running out of end. Those nasty spawns are tough for defense psychic blast.
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Endurance is indeed a problem for soloing AVs. Cardiac pretty much eliminates that problem, but pre-incarnate I would cycle Conserver Power and Force of Nature to keep my endurance up. It was a certainly a pain because I would have to flee to avoid being killed from the endurance crash when Force of Nature went down (but that extra 2 minutes of endurance was worth the crash). Was it an SO storm build, certainly not. But if you're going to solo AVs on a storm/anything, you're not playing an SO build.
Draggynn on Virtue: lvl 50 Storm/Psi, 1389 badges
Draggynn's Guide to Storm Summoning(Gale-Tornado, updated 6/25/2011)
Avatar by Wassy full reference here
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Well, a fully slotted Hurricane against an even level AV still provides a 9% to-hit debuff which isn't necessarily anything to scoff at. Granted depending on the AV, you may not want to be in melee range to use Hurricane.|
Originally Posted by FrostyG
Against AV's storm tends to run into issues protecting a team. The -rech you deliver is basically nullified as is the knockback/down, as is the -tohit debuffing.
That basically leaves the set with a subpar st heal to help the team stay alive. That isn't to say storm isn't welcome against AV's because freezing rain and nado/LS are great against them, but in terms of protecting the team it is a weak spot for the set. |
Snow Storm and Freezing Rain (single stacked) combined contribute almost a 20% increase in recharge time (-17% recharge).
02 boost also provides stun, sleep, and end drain protection, which depending on the AV can be very valuable for squishies. One way that might help you feel more useful is to take Power Build Up. You can use that before you heal, and get about 3 heal other level heals off in a tight spot.
Although it may be harder to see your impact in an AV fight, it's useful to remember that you do still make a difference.
Draggynn on Virtue: lvl 50 Storm/Psi, 1389 badges
Draggynn's Guide to Storm Summoning(Gale-Tornado, updated 6/25/2011)
Avatar by Wassy full reference here
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When up against an AV, storm suddenly transforms from a control/chaos set into a damage set. You have access to one of the best resistance debuffs in the game and a couple powers that deals serious damage to AVs. However, O2 boost and steamy mist become about the only viable defense at your disposal. Hurricane is strong enough that its to-hit debuff can make a small impact on AVs, but depending on which one it is, it may not be worth it for you to get that close to them.
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Originally Posted by HyperVelocity
Well that feeling may come from a few bad experiences, with a bad and immature build ( for example ice mistral in a 8 man safeguard back when they were new, I was unable to protect the team, perhaps not really through a fault of my own).
I'm still unsure about the choice but your commenst are very helpful! |
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When your debuffs are running at 15% (or less) or their usual strength that is what I generally view as "basically nullified"|
Originally Posted by Draggynn
Well, a fully slotted Hurricane against an even level AV still provides a 9% to-hit debuff which isn't necessarily anything to scoff at. Granted depending on the AV, you may not want to be in melee range to use Hurricane.
Snow Storm and Freezing Rain (single stacked) combined contribute almost a 20% increase in recharge time (-17% recharge). 02 boost also provides stun, sleep, and end drain protection, which depending on the AV can be very valuable for squishies. One way that might help you feel more useful is to take Power Build Up. You can use that before you heal, and get about 3 heal other level heals off in a tight spot. Although it may be harder to see your impact in an AV fight, it's useful to remember that you do still make a difference. |
Especially in the case of hurricane which if we recall the OP's post he cited feelings of "uselessness" against hard targets. That is pretty common when you have a power that completely shuts down pretty much everything you face and then barely has any impact on an AV.
Is it worth it to run hurricane against an AV? that will be a game time decision imo. My fire/storm troller doesn't and instead just opted to build for softcap def when I had it set up as an AV spec. My storm/son didn't run it solo vs most AV's, also opting for a ranged def spec, but with the option of picking up cardiac that may change if I ever revisit the toon as it ends up being a lot of endurance for the relative defense it provides against AV's.
Then again endurance wasn't a major issue for my storm/son (though was still an issue), so I'd prefer to just go musculature or spiritual over cardiac as the gain from those would probably be better than that offered by running hurricane against an AV.
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And I was just putting some context on what, "basically nullified" means by providing some numbers. Many people seem to think that 85% resistance means debuffs do nothing, but Storm Defenders have such massive debuffs to begin with, that even at 15% effectiveness, they can still have an imapct. All bets are off of course against +4 AVs. Then I think it really is a waste to run Hurricane.|
Originally Posted by FrostyG
When your debuffs are running at 15% (or less) or their usual strength that is what I generally view as "basically nullified"
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| Is it worth it to run hurricane against an AV? that will be a game time decision imo. My fire/storm troller doesn't and instead just opted to build for softcap def when I had it set up as an AV spec. My storm/son didn't run it solo vs most AV's, also opting for a ranged def spec, but with the option of picking up cardiac that may change if I ever revisit the toon as it ends up being a lot of endurance for the relative defense it provides against AV's. |
Draggynn on Virtue: lvl 50 Storm/Psi, 1389 badges
Draggynn's Guide to Storm Summoning(Gale-Tornado, updated 6/25/2011)
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Quote:
You assumed they tried to solo an AV that is heavily resisted to their damage type?
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Originally Posted by Psylenz
I do wonder about Storm/Psy defeating an AV when it is doubtful he could solo a sky raider jumpbot before running out of end. Those nasty spawns are tough for defense psychic blast.
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No, no, no! Draggynn. I was talking from my own experience with defender psy blast, especially on my FF/psy. I haven't run a storm/psy was just blue-sky wondering out loud on text about the synergy between the damage resistance debuffs in storm and psy blast.|
Originally Posted by Draggynn
**raises an eyebrow** Sorry, are you calling me a liar?
Endurance is indeed a problem for soloing AVs. Cardiac pretty much eliminates that problem, but pre-incarnate I would cycle Conserver Power and Force of Nature to keep my endurance up. It was a certainly a pain because I would have to flee to avoid being killed from the endurance crash when Force of Nature went down (but that extra 2 minutes of endurance was worth the crash). Was it an SO storm build, certainly not. But if you're going to solo AVs on a storm/anything, you're not playing an SO build. |
I consider you the authority and the number cruncher par excellence for the stormy community. I certainly am NOT a 'pics or it didn't happen' poster.
I recant my statement. Endurance usage is always a concern for any stormy.
Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
Quote:
Ah, sorry for jumping to conclusions there. I agree with you that endurance is always a concern, and even more so in a solo AV fight because there is no down time, vigilance, or teammate buffs to help. I had originally tried to solo AVs with the electricity mastery pool, but power sink didn't return enough endurance. Next I tried with just Conserve Power from Power Mastery, but it took both Conserve Power and Force of Nature to keep me going for long enough to take down an AV.|
Originally Posted by Psylenz
No, no, no! Draggynn. I was talking from my own experience with defender psy blast, especially on my FF/psy. I haven't run a storm/psy was just blue-sky wondering out loud on text about the synergy between the damage resistance debuffs in storm and psy blast.
I recant my statement. Endurance usage is always a concern for any stormy. |
Of course now with inherent fitness, the vigilance damage buff, and all of the incarnate powers, there are more options in making an AV capable build.
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| I consider you the authority and the number cruncher par excellence for the stormy community. |
, thank you
Draggynn on Virtue: lvl 50 Storm/Psi, 1389 badges
Draggynn's Guide to Storm Summoning(Gale-Tornado, updated 6/25/2011)
Avatar by Wassy full reference here
On my Storm/Dark, I decided to go with Recharge for my Alpha slot. I really started to notice my endurance issues with that. Didn't take conserve power, so it was all through FoN, Accolades, and just steady endurance management on my part, popping blues when I forgot to pace myself. However, with Destiny, I took Ageless. Even more recharge and it solved my endurance issues. I was very happy when I got that fixed.
50s: Bla- Arch/Mental Cont- Mind/FF, Earth/Cold, Ill/Therm, Earth/Rad Dominator- Plant/Psi, Elec/Earth Corr- Fire/Storm, Arch/Sonic, Rad/Kin, Beam/Sonic, Psi/Time Stalker- Elec/SR Def- Storm/Dark, Emp/Psi, Dark/Elec, FF/Arch, TA/Ice, TA/Elec, Kin/AR, Cold/DP, Traps/Psi Scrap- Fire/Shield Tanker- Dark/Mace, Ice/Kin Brute- Claws/WP, SS/Energy, BS/Elec
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You can say that again. Some sets were designed and balanced around a bunch of great powers that you have to use selectively because of endurance costs. Storm is a perfect example. |
Originally Posted by Draggynn
Of course now with inherent fitness, the vigilance damage buff, and all of the incarnate powers, there are more options in making an AV capable build.
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Cardiac alpha blows that out of the water, you can run around with all your toggles on 24/7 while blitzing a full attack chain.
Hypervelocity, would you consider a Cold/Sonic Defender? I love mine and it brings things to teams that are either unique or extremely useful in an AV fight. Storm combinations may be better for soloing, but all of the new content so far has been designed for teams.
Cold Domination has defense buffs, which are extremely useful for keeping teammates alive. Heat Loss can be made permanent (or close to it) for nearly unlimited endurance, which allows your Alpha slot to be used on recharge and your Destiny slot on status protection or something else if you want it. Sleet can be exploited as an AoE rain power if you add Reactive Interface, unless they nerf it. Sleet isn't quite as good as Storm/Ice's triple-rain powers, but the rest of Cold/Sonic's powers make up for that. Also, you won't feel quite as bad if they do nerf Reactive. Finally, the bread-and-butter of Cold Domination is Benumb. It reduces the effectiveness of practically every power the AV activates by 75%. Damage is reduced. Healing is reduced. Buffs like Unstoppable are reduced. It literally makes the difference between Marauder's health bar coming to a dead stop when he uses Unstoppable, or him dying as if he never used it in the first place.
Sonic Assault gives any Defender at least 80% average resistance debuffing potential, assuming they have a good attack chain. Unless you're trying to solo everything in the game on a Defender, no other secondary is more valuable on a team. Your damage output doesn't really matter when everyone else is doing twice as much damage because of your debuffs. Not even Radiation primary can debuff as much resistance as Sonic Assault can.
The only reasons I can see someone using Ice Blast over Sonic Assault are for theme, solo damage, or if their sound volume is too high and the Sonic Assault attack sounds give them a headache.
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This bug has already been fixed on the test server (although they've introduced a new bug in the process, where interface only effects one target in rain power...I suppose to balance things out from the period of time it was overpowered |
Originally Posted by Syntax42
Sleet can be exploited as an AoE rain power if you add Reactive Interface, unless they nerf it.
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) . So I would not try plan on building around this bug.Although Cold and Storm share powers, they play quite differently on account of Storm's pseudopets. If all you want is massive AV debuffing, choose Cold, but from a playstyle perspective you won't get the "Storm Experience".
Draggynn on Virtue: lvl 50 Storm/Psi, 1389 badges
Draggynn's Guide to Storm Summoning(Gale-Tornado, updated 6/25/2011)
Avatar by Wassy full reference here
I did consider Cold for other characters but could never make one as I do have to play solo or small teams most of the time, so 3 powers that can be only used on teams put me off a little. Storm is it's own thing, and I really want to play it again. I might use cold on another character eventually though.
I know it's the wrong forum but while we're at it, anyone have experience with storm as a Mastermind secondary?
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Well Masterminds thrive on chaos, so it works well in that respect. You could certainly have a lot of fun with it. Steamy Mist would protect your henchmen, and o2 boost lets you keep them topped up. Have they fixed the ranged henchmen running into melee? If they have you could sit in the middle of them with hurricane up, protecting them from melee mobs while they mow them down. Only downside is that it might not offer your henchmen much protection from ranged and aoe.
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Originally Posted by HyperVelocity
I did consider Cold for other characters but could never make one as I do have to play solo or small teams most of the time, so 3 powers that can be only used on teams put me off a little. Storm is it's own thing, and I really want to play it again. I might use cold on another character eventually though.
I know it's the wrong forum but while we're at it, anyone have experience with storm as a Mastermind secondary? |
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I don't have any experience, so it's probably best to ask the Masterminds. My one area of concern would be that MM abilities cost about 30% more endurance. I don't know if this is offset enough by not needing to expend endurance when they attack thanks to pets, or if this makes things a real pain.
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Originally Posted by HyperVelocity
I know it's the wrong forum but while we're at it, anyone have experience with storm as a Mastermind secondary?
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Draggynn on Virtue: lvl 50 Storm/Psi, 1389 badges
Draggynn's Guide to Storm Summoning(Gale-Tornado, updated 6/25/2011)
Avatar by Wassy full reference here
Quote:
Bwahaha no fix yet, ranged pets still charge into melee. Don't hold your breath for dev love, melee pets spent years staying out of the crowd and plinking feeble ranged attacks.|
Originally Posted by Peacemoon
Well Masterminds thrive on chaos, so it works well in that respect. You could certainly have a lot of fun with it. Steamy Mist would protect your henchmen, and o2 boost lets you keep them topped up. Have they fixed the ranged henchmen running into melee? If they have you could sit in the middle of them with hurricane up, protecting them from melee mobs while they mow them down. Only downside is that it might not offer your henchmen much protection from ranged and aoe.
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However, stormie masterminds are fun to play and can be quite powerful. The pets don't mind KB, they uncomplainingly and (relatively) efficiently target scattered mobs.
My demon/storm is only high 30s and frankenslotted, but he solos at -1x6. The combination of bodyguard mode, great mitigation and a decent heal gives him a lot of staying power. Most of my faceplants come from running out of end, I hope hitting 50 and slotting cardiac will make him extremely sturdy against normal content.
People say bots/storm is very good and I can see the synergy. +DEF from protbot goes nicely with your -tohit, and if you do a good job herdicaning the assault bot will bathe the tightly packed crowds in flame.
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My only high-ish level stormie is a MM so I can't directly compare, but end management is a struggle for stormie MMs. Back in the olden days my bubbler, dark and traps MMs took the leadership pool instead of fitness, it was tight but do-able. My demon/storm has inherent fitness and a couple of slots in stamina and end is a still a constant concern.|
Originally Posted by Draggynn
I don't have any experience, so it's probably best to ask the Masterminds. My one area of concern would be that MM abilities cost about 30% more endurance. I don't know if this is offset enough by not needing to expend endurance when they attack thanks to pets, or if this makes things a real pain.
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But it's workable, much more so these days. Tip missions are a pretty easy way for lowbies to get Perf Shifter and Numi and the other +end proc, and of course at 50 it'll be cardiac all the way.
I played a Bots/storm up to 50, duo'd 90% of the time with a Necro/Storm. This was before the adjustment to pet AI prior to the Demon Summoning debut. By the way I have a tp stealth proc in TP to stack with the steamy.
My Bots/storm made a living off tp'ing to a position 90 degrees from my pets in respect to the direction of the spawn. Hit gale FIRST and it blows them into a better position, kick off the Freezing Rain, fire up the hurricane, and the cornered/floored/flopping foes responded well to the AoE stuns from the protectors and the AoE from the first tier guys. Positioning first to the foes' indefensible position is what makes this work so well. Your attacks are separate in the pets and assist the mastermind with his smackdown.
Necro Storm is scary good. Scary, because on paper it shouldn't work. Use hurricane like a surgeon's knife and the grave knights and zombies clean house very successfully. The steamy mist protects the crew from fire, cold, and energy - no small support.
Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
I'm in such an indecisive state that I need to ask for advice for powerset selection which I usually don't do...
I have a shelved storm/ice and I wish to start playing a storm character again (I have also a 40ish storm/elec which has brought me much joy in my beginnings but I can't foresee playing again). I'm going to play either solo or in a duo.
The question is so: Does sonic allow to leverage with -RES the damage from storm to overcome the awesomeness that is Ice Storm? That appeals to me, drawing damage from the primary.
Side question: How is ice against hard targets, can it solo AVs? One on the things I disliked with my first stormy is how useless I felt against hard targets and I wish to avoid that.
Thanks!