Iggy Kamakaze gave his interpretation of the same idea in this thread.
I'm not a believer in the new soft cap, in the sense that I'll be surprised if there are very many enemies with exactly 64% to hit. But if it comes to pass, Super Reflexes is in a good position to deal with it, and I'm glad that people are thinking about it.
Damage looks problematic. Follow Up and Focus are critical to high DPS, and they're both badly underslotted.
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"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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The devs made a whole set of critter types with exactly that base tohit: the "Praetorian" variants of various critters. That is just what they are called: they aren't necessarily restricted to only Praetorians (the DE in tip missions have that base tohit, but its unclear that they specifically have any connection to Praetoria).|
Originally Posted by Werner
I'm not a believer in the new soft cap, in the sense that I'll be surprised if there are very many enemies with exactly 64% to hit.
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Unless the critter gets specific powers to boost tohit (i.e. Rularuu eyeballs) there's three different base tohits in the game: 75% (players, pets, turrets), 50% (just about everything else) and 64% (special Praetorian classes).
The only place we currently see the 64% specials is in Incarnate content and (still weirdly) DE tip missions. I doubt we'll be seeing them in standard content any time soon. But I suspect we'll be seeing them increasingly in end game advanced content.
Whether that's enough to build around is a separate matter. But I will say that the difference between 45% defense and 59% defense is a factor of almost four for a critter like Tin Mage Bobcat. That would be significant to someone wanting to tank her, or even stand anywhere next to her.
Of course, in virtually all of the content these guys show up in except for DE tip missions, you're likely to be on a team and a significant percentage of the time (but not always) you'll have defensive buffs. So building to 59% may be the land of diminishing returns for almost everyone. For a few things, like SR, Ice, and Energy (and certainly Force Fields) it might be a not-insane exercise. I'd consider it for Katana/* scrappers and NB/* stalkers, and anything/Invuln with invincibility, because those too are not too unreachable.
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Yeah. To the extent that the so-called new soft cap has been publicized at all, I'd say the reaction has been overwrought. |
Originally Posted by Werner
I'm not a believer in the new soft cap, in the sense that I'll be surprised if there are very many enemies with exactly 64% to hit. But if it comes to pass, Super Reflexes is in a good position to deal with it, and I'm glad that people are thinking about it.
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Heck, even if you don't have teammate support boosting you to the new cap, 45% + 1 small Luck Inspiration puts you at 57.5%. With the Inspiration Vet Badge, that same Luck puts you up to ~58.1%. Personally, and for what it's worth, I can't remember the last time I didn't get near 60% in DEF from teammate buffs on my soft-capped characters, but I know some people don't consider those buffs to be reasonable to assume.
All things considered, there are too many offensive trade offs required to push for 59% to all relevant (to your build) positions/types right now. That may well change as Incarnate content matures -- and as more and more Incarnate slots are unlocked, potentially alleviating the required build trade offs -- but we're not there yet. (We already know of one post-Alpha Incarnate boost that will provide a decent DEF/RES boost on a permanent basis, at higher tiers.)
Incidentally, given that Incarnate content tends to encourage players to focus very heavily on one or two characters, we may see more and more people using multiple high-end builds, which may indirectly make 59% a more generally palatable build goal -- at least for a few powersets, as Arcana noted. SR's probably the poster child because it has so little going for it other than the soft cap.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Hmmm, well, I didn't know that it was common to the Praetorian versions of critters. I'd only heard of a couple examples, which seemed a bit much to draw conclusions from.
I DID make 70% melee/lethal defense with double-stacked Divine Avalanche a build goal for my Katana/Dark, and ended up hitting 75%. The idea was a buffer for defense debuffs, but also to handle pet to-hit a little better. I also leveled a Broad Sword/Shield with the same idea in mind, but ended up abandoning that project. My Dark Melee/Super Reflexes should be in a good position if I need 59% in the future. But I haven't paid any attention to the I20 stuff, so I'm not in a position to theorize about which of my builds will be best in the future.
But yeah, on teams, if you have 45% at the start, it seems likely that you'll have somewhat higher than that in practice. I don't want to rely on purples, though, because I don't want to chug them through a whole mission.
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This is exactly what I needed, since I'm horrible at judging attack chains and such. And this is mostly just a thought-exercise at this point, and I'm more likely to go to about 50%-ish, drop the nerve for musculature, and rely on the fact that about 75% of the playerbase seems to take leadership now to do stuff like stand toe-to-toe with Bobcat.|
Originally Posted by Werner
Damage looks problematic. Follow Up and Focus are critical to high DPS, and they're both badly underslotted.
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Unless, maybe Spiritual will provide better DPS with its recharge (as a side note, I almost always have SB as this character is perma-duoed to my girlfriend's Mind/Kin).
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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I'm still a firm believer that a scrapper's first job is damage output. Granted dead dps does no dps, but I've run both apex and tin mage quite a few times (and ended up tanking everything because of AAO) and I've never been below 60 percent defense on any of them.
I really think that the effort spent gaining an additional 15 percent defense would be far better served increasing layered defenses in 95 percent of these situations - more HP, more resists, more DDR (where appropriate), more regen, or alternatively by increasing global damage and recharge. As Obitus said, if worst comes to worst - hit a small purple.
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It all makes sense, and yet, unless I'm specifically TRYING to get myself killed, I HATE getting killed in this game. I hate even thinking that I COULD get killed. Like last night I was on an ITF with my concept Fire/Shield. He's soft capped, which I consider the bare minimum, but has low regeneration and no heal, so definitely isn't one of my survivability builds. His hit points dropped very rapidly in the Rommie fight. We basically had no healer and I must have briefly gotten some bad aggro before the Tankers had everything firmly controlled. I popped a green, hit points dropped like a stone, popped another... and the thought that went through my head was "I'm going to run out of greens and die. DIE. I can't DIE on this." I probably popped a big orange at that point, and then Rommie was down quickly, and we didn't have problems the rest of the time. But seriously, it freaked me out. A walk of shame back from the hospital? NEVER!!!|
Originally Posted by Igor_The_Mad
I'm still a firm believer that a scrapper's first job is damage output. Granted dead dps does no dps, but I've run both apex and tin mage quite a few times (and ended up tanking everything because of AAO) and I've never been below 60 percent defense on any of them.
I really think that the effort spent gaining an additional 15 percent defense would be far better served increasing layered defenses in 95 percent of these situations - more HP, more resists, more DDR (where appropriate), more regen, or alternatively by increasing global damage and recharge. As Obitus said, if worst comes to worst - hit a small purple. |
Yes, yes, I know that if you don't die, you aren't really trying. I have no problem getting myself killed on purpose, like my 50+ attempts to solo Ghost Widow on my Dark Melee/Super Reflexes before finally giving up, or when I herd up giant monsters to see how many it takes to kill me. But in something basic like a +0 ITF? *shudder*
So I guess while I don't expect to be shooting for 59% defense any time soon, I do understand it. And I'm actually fiddling with an Invulnerability/Super Strength Tanker build, trying to see what sort of defense I can pull off while still having excellent resists, near perma Hasten, capped hit points, Aid Self, and other goodies. I don't see 59% happening without more than one enemy in range, but something in the 50s looks perfectly doable, even if I haven't worked out the details yet. I suppose if I frequented the Tanker boards I'd have a much better idea what I was doing.
(Edit: And all of that may be irrelevant in I20 anyway, since I haven't paid any attention to what it has on offer.)
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Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Quote:
I'm most certainly with you on the "I CAN'T DIE THIS IS JUST A TF" mindset. I somehow died on a LGTF last night on my dm/sd, because DraGon or whatever his name is rolled a 3 twice on his BS incinerate move and I got splatted a lot faster than I expected. That was the first time I'd died in a TF in weeks... and i TF a lot. |
Originally Posted by Werner
It all makes sense, and yet, unless I'm specifically TRYING to get myself killed, I HATE getting killed in this game. I hate even thinking that I COULD get killed. Like last night I was on an ITF with my concept Fire/Shield. He's soft capped, which I consider the bare minimum, but has low regeneration and no heal, so definitely isn't one of my survivability builds. His hit points dropped very rapidly in the Rommie fight. We basically had no healer and I must have briefly gotten some bad aggro before the Tankers had everything firmly controlled. I popped a green, hit points dropped like a stone, popped another... and the thought that went through my head was "I'm going to run out of greens and die. DIE. I can't DIE on this." I probably popped a big orange at that point, and then Rommie was down quickly, and we didn't have problems the rest of the time. But seriously, it freaked me out. A walk of shame back from the hospital? NEVER!!!
Yes, yes, I know that if you don't die, you aren't really trying. I have no problem getting myself killed on purpose, like my 50+ attempts to solo Ghost Widow on my Dark Melee/Super Reflexes before finally giving up, or when I herd up giant monsters to see how many it takes to kill me. But in something basic like a +0 ITF? *shudder* So I guess while I don't expect to be shooting for 59% defense any time soon, I do understand it. And I'm actually fiddling with an Invulnerability/Super Strength Tanker build, trying to see what sort of defense I can pull off while still having excellent resists, near perma Hasten, capped hit points, Aid Self, and other goodies. I don't see 59% happening without more than one enemy in range, but something in the 50s looks perfectly doable, even if I haven't worked out the details yet. I suppose if I frequented the Tanker boards I'd have a much better idea what I was doing. (Edit: And all of that may be irrelevant in I20 anyway, since I haven't paid any attention to what it has on offer.) |
I think my point was more that for some (maybe most?) builds, survivability would be better served building for 45 percent (perhaps higher on non DDR capped builds, I grant that) and then going for more HP. Right now I'm trying to decide whether I want to spend 5-6 billion inf to get another 100 hp and 3 percent resists.
So do you guys remember that "Apex" build that I made for Murcielago? Yeah I20 is why lol
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My philosophy on scrappers is scrappers are designed to be balanced. My definition of balanced is, in very rough terms, have enough defense to survive what you have enough offense to kill. Having enough offense to kill a pylon in three minutes is meaningless if it can kill you in one. That's obviously a very hazy target, and not something you can really easily put into numbers. But its what I strive for intuitively regardless.
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Originally Posted by Igor_The_Mad
I'm still a firm believer that a scrapper's first job is damage output.
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I certainly don't disagree with you, and perhaps my meaning wasn't terribly clear. When average joe is forming a TF, he thinks "Ok, I've got a tank, and a support or two, now I need some damage." Generally scrappers fall into the "damage" archetype when people are considering who to bring along for teams. Sure, a well built, well IO'd scrapper can in many cases survive longer than a tanker with SO's who doesn't have taunt and hasn't got a clue what he's doing, but in my experience my scrapper isn't generally asked to tank TFs. That's all I meant by focusing on damage foremost, because I view that as my main role in teams. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
My philosophy on scrappers is scrappers are designed to be balanced. My definition of balanced is, in very rough terms, have enough defense to survive what you have enough offense to kill. Having enough offense to kill a pylon in three minutes is meaningless if it can kill you in one. That's obviously a very hazy target, and not something you can really easily put into numbers. But its what I strive for intuitively regardless.
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When I'm looking at survivability for my characters, I tend to maximize their damage output first, because that tends to be very simple and easy to do. Obtain best attack chain within the confines of the build, obtain the necessary recharge to run it, along with the requisite endurance recovery to run said chain. Once this is done, there's not a whole lot more to do for most builds. I suppose builds like SS or DM/KM/Claws/DB are different in that you want to get their buildup power as perma as possible, and building for global damage set bonuses is helpful, but 95 percent of "min/max'ing" damage output lies in jiggering with attack chains. That took me about half an hour in mids.
Once that was done, I started looking at defenses. You're definitely correct in that a balanced approach is important in designing any character. There's so many different ways to increase survivability in this game, it makes my head spin sometimes. Defense, Def Debuff Res, Resistance, Regeneration, Healing, MaxHP all play a role in time to live. I've spent upwards of 40 hours in mids on my main attempting to squeeze "just a bit more" out of the build. DM/SD has spoiled me rather terribly because any time I play something else, I start thinking "I can sit in front of a pylon with an aggro cap worth of 54 rikti and never worry about dying, why am I playing this blaster?"
I was thinking about this "new soft-cap" of 59% (inspired by an Apex run) and decided to see about getting a scrapper to it, and I ended up over it. This build is, at this point, purely hypothetical (though based on my claws/sr), and the only thing I'm not sure of is how well it still puts out the damage. So feedback on that side is mostly what I'm looking for (especially from BillZ or other Claws mavens).
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.93
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
a small adorable fox: Level 50 Magic Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Claws
Secondary Power Set: Super Reflexes
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Body Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Strike -- T'Death-Acc/Dmg:35(A), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx:40(15), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg:35(19), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:35(19), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:40(23), T'Death-Dam%:35(39)
Level 1: Focused Fighting -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx:35(A), RedFtn-Def/Rchg:35(3), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg:35(3), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:35(5), RedFtn-Def:35(5), RedFtn-EndRdx:35(7)
Level 2: Slash -- T'Death-Acc/Dmg:35(A), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx:35(21), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg:35(21), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:40(27), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(39), T'Death-Dam%:40(40)
Level 4: Focused Senses -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx:35(A), RedFtn-Def/Rchg:35(7), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg:35(9), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:35(9), RedFtn-Def:35(11), RedFtn-EndRdx:35(13)
Level 6: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A)
Level 8: Agile -- DefBuff-I:35(A), LkGmblr-Def:35(13), LkGmblr-Rchg+:35(15)
Level 10: Practiced Brawler -- RechRdx-I:35(A), RechRdx-I:35(11)
Level 12: Kick -- Empty(A)
Level 14: Follow Up -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:35(A), F'dSmite-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:35(25), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(46)
Level 16: Dodge -- DefBuff-I:35(A), LkGmblr-Def:35(17), LkGmblr-Rchg+:35(17)
Level 18: Focus -- Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:35(A), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:35(27), Entrpc-Heal%:35(40)
Level 20: Quickness -- Empty(A)
Level 22: Spin -- M'Strk-Acc/Dmg:35(A), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx:35(23), M'Strk-Dmg/Rchg:35(25), M'Strk-Acc/EndRdx:35(33), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:35(33), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(43)
Level 24: Tough -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+:30(A), GA-3defTpProc:35(50)
Level 26: Eviscerate -- Sciroc-Acc/Dmg:35(A), Sciroc-Dmg/EndRdx:35(34), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg:35(34), Sciroc-Acc/Rchg:35(39), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:35(40)
Level 28: Lucky -- DefBuff-I:35(A), LkGmblr-Def:35(29), LkGmblr-Rchg+:35(29)
Level 30: Weave -- S'dpty-Def/EndRdx:35(A), S'dpty-Def/Rchg:35(31), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:35(31), S'dpty-Def:35(31), S'dpty-EndRdx:35(33)
Level 32: Shockwave -- Posi-Acc/Dmg:35(A), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:35(34), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx:35(37)
Level 35: Evasion -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx:35(A), RedFtn-Def/Rchg:35(36), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg:35(36), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:35(36), RedFtn-Def:35(37), RedFtn-EndRdx:35(37)
Level 38: Elude -- Winter-ResSlow:35(A)
Level 41: Focused Accuracy -- GSFC-ToHit:35(A), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg:35(42), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx:35(42), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx:35(42), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx:35(43), GSFC-Build%:35(43)
Level 44: Maneuvers -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx:35(A), RedFtn-Def/Rchg:35(45), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg:35(45), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:35(45), RedFtn-Def:35(46), RedFtn-EndRdx:35(46)
Level 47: Physical Perfection -- P'Shift-EndMod:35(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg:35(48), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc/Rchg:35(48), P'Shift-Acc/Rchg:35(48), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc:35(50), P'Shift-End%:35(50)
Level 49: Confront -- Mocking-Taunt/Rng:35(A)
Level 50: Nerve Core Paragon
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+:35(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- EndMod-I:35(A)