What makes 'Huntsman' (or Bane) builds viable?
By
Aggroman,
Posted on: 2011-02-20 11:27 in Soldiers of Arachnos
Quote:
Without any pets, doing Single Shot -> Burst -> Single Shot -> Arm Lash with the Achilles proc in Single Shot. The build also has Spiderlings and Call Reinforcements to up that number by 100-150 in ideal conditions (depending on how you run Assault and slot the pets).|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
164 ST dps is with or without any pet?
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Could get about 5 DPS more if i swapped in Bayonet instead of Arm Lash but then I'd lose 5% recharge which I'm not willing to do.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
Like I said, I am not surprised that Bane has less dps because he does the most resistance debuffs of all. If Bane has the highest dps while debuffing the most, then there is a problem.
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Made a Bane build with Musculature Core Paragon (my previous 155 DPS one was with Cardiac). CBA to properly caluclate end consumption, but I think it would be borderline functional in that regard (same net endurance recovery of 2.5 EPS as the Cardiac build, but that of course means attacks will drain more juice).
EDIT: Went and calculated attack chain endurance drain too, turns out it's 4 EPS which is not nice, giving only a minute of continuous beatdown.
This build isn't running Tough (could be turned on if need be since it's fully slotted but end is a problem) and has 180 DPS with the same attack chain, 175 if I use Venom nade instead of Crowd Control every other cycle.
That I'm willing to accept as borderline balanced with crabs, I think, even considering pets - the bane is going to always have his full DPS right where he wants it and the build does have Call Reinforcements too. The problems of end consumption and no DDR remain though.
EDIT: Bah, forgot to include the Cloaking Device in my endurance calculations. Net endurance gain falls to 2.37... I'm not happy.
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Originally Posted by Exxar
Made a Bane build with Musculature Core Paragon (my previous 155 DPS one was with Cardiac). CBA to properly caluclate end consumption, but I think it would be borderline functional in that regard (same net endurance recovery of 2.5 EPS as the Cardiac build, but that of course means attacks will drain more juice).
EDIT: Went and calculated attack chain endurance drain too, turns out it's 4 EPS which is not nice, giving only a minute of continuous beatdown. This build isn't running Tough (could be turned on if need be since it's fully slotted but end is a problem) and has 180 DPS with the same attack chain, 175 if I use Venom nade instead of Crowd Control every other cycle. That I'm willing to accept as borderline balanced with crabs, I think, even considering pets - the bane is going to always have his full DPS right where he wants it and the build does have Call Reinforcements too. The problems of end consumption and no DDR remain though. EDIT: Bah, forgot to include the Cloaking Device in my endurance calculations. Net endurance gain falls to 2.37... I'm not happy. |
My level shift bane originally went with Musculature path thinking that more damage is better but I had endurance problem during long fights. And while I can carry more blue inspirations, I feel I am better off carrying more Reds than blue because Red last a lot longer (60s) than what Blue can do. A small blue only gives 25 end which can be used up in 10s if I spam all my attacks nonstop.
My Bane is now full Cardiac and it's a much smoother build. I mostly only carry Red, Orange and Green.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Survivability comes from more than one source (resistance). Bane can start the fight with an almost guaranteed knockdown in Shatter and if you chain Crowd Control next, the target has a high chance to get knocked down again. Soft-controls do help Bane survive a bit better.|
Originally Posted by Exxar
You forgot taking survivability into the equation. Crabs are much more survivable and I don't think that additional resistance debuffing is worth the survivability you can get with a crab, not by a long shot.
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When I played NW, she has the most defense of all but when I get unlucky and get hit twice in a row by a boss, I die very fast. Comparing to Bane, a boss may spend a lot of time "bouncing" up and down.
There are some situations where having more resistance is better like against Avs that you can't knockdown or GMs. In the case of GM/AV, Bane's resistance debuffs do make a huge difference and I mostly get AoE defense because I know I am never going to steal aggro away from a Tanker/Brute. What I need is higher AoE defense and I save Orange inspirations too because I know I still have 10% to get hit.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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That's what I was afraid of. So it's back to "banes suck" for me for the most part. Damn.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
My level shift bane originally went with Musculature path thinking that more damage is better but I had endurance problem during long fights. And while I can carry more blue inspirations, I feel I am better off carrying more Reds than blue because Red last a lot longer (60s) than what Blue can do. A small blue only gives 25 end which can be used up in 10s if I spam all my attacks nonstop.
My Bane is now full Cardiac and it's a much smoother build. I mostly only carry Red, Orange and Green. |
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
Survivability comes from more than one source (resistance). Bane can start the fight with an almost guaranteed knockdown in Shatter and if you chain Crowd Control next, the target has a high chance to get knocked down again. Soft-controls do help Bane survive a bit better.
When I played NW, she has the most defense of all but when I get unlucky and get hit twice in a row by a boss, I die very fast. Comparing to Bane, a boss may spend a lot of time "bouncing" up and down. There are some situations where having more resistance is better like against Avs that you can't knockdown or GMs. In the case of GM/AV, Bane's resistance debuffs do make a huge difference and I mostly get AoE defense because I know I am never going to steal aggro away from a Tanker/Brute. What I need is higher AoE defense and I save Orange inspirations too because I know I still have 10% to get hit. |
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Originally Posted by Exxar
That's what I was afraid of. So it's back to "banes suck" for me for the most part. Damn.
Very well put. But I don't know, banes just seem to tether at the border of being competitive with crabs, and that really doesn't give me much of an incentive to invest in a bane build. |
Well, do you like Stalkers? Stalker ranks #1 population of all the toons I have but I have this "love and hate" relationship with them. I feel Stalker is lacking on a large team and Bane gives me that "superior Stalker" feeling because Bane has very decent burst damage (for 10s with Shatter and Shatter Armor), offers great team defense and debuffs resistance. I love Bane and mostly it's because I am a Stalker-user. It definitely has an acquired "taste". lol
If you don't use Stalker much, Bane is probably not very fun for you.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Yeah I originally opted for a Bane because I like Stalkers. I'm in an odd relationship with them too... Mostly miss the AoE damage and CC is much better than anything I've seen by Stalkers till now. But now that I've specced into a crabstermind and am looking at my Alpha build I just can't help but compare Banes only to Crabs.
Just curious but would any of you post your build?
This is what I roll with on my Huntsman. With Cloak suppressed still soft capped all three positionals, gobs of recharge, and lots of bonus damage. I use Surveillance to debuff the resist and def of the hard target in a spawn, then draw mace for Web Cocoon and Web Envelope to reduce recharge on the hard target in the spawn, followed by BU with mace out still, finally run in and hit hard target with Shatter Armor, jump back out to range drawing the gun: Venon Grenade, Heavy Burst and Frag on hard target and all his minions. Anything still left is hit with Single Shot, Burst, or Bayonet.
The minus resist procs in S/Shot and Burst along with Surveillance and Shatter Armor can melt EB's and AV's. I still also sometimes stealth about and crit with Bayonet to start a fight, whatever fits my whimsy at the time. Hunstman to me is about fun, that is versitality and options.
I see a lot of fellow Huntsman that just AOE and range, they do not even have a melee attack. Hmm, Bayonet is a darn good attack, and Shatter Armor stacked with the other minus resist and defense available allows for easy ownage of EB's, and really contributes to an AV fight.
Anyway this is how I enjoy my Huntsman, we each have our own preference.
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.92
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Able Caliber (version 12): Level 50 Natural Arachnos Soldier
Primary Power Set: Bane Spider Soldier
Secondary Power Set: Bane Spider Training
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Mace Mastery
Villain Profile:
Level 1: Single Shot
- (A) Devastation - Accuracy/Damage
- (3) Devastation - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (5) Devastation - Damage/Endurance
- (17) Devastation - Damage/Recharge
- (34) Touch of Lady Grey - Chance for Negative Damage
- (36) Achilles' Heel - Chance for Res Debuff
- (A) Steadfast Protection - Resistance/+Def 3%
- (25) Steadfast Protection - Knockback Protection
- (A) Devastation - Accuracy/Damage
- (5) Devastation - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (7) Devastation - Damage/Endurance
- (7) Devastation - Damage/Recharge
- (34) Touch of Lady Grey - Chance for Negative Damage
- (36) Achilles' Heel - Chance for Res Debuff
- (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
- (A) Adjusted Targeting - Recharge
- (27) Adjusted Targeting - Endurance/Recharge
- (A) Positron's Blast - Accuracy/Damage
- (9) Positron's Blast - Damage/Endurance
- (9) Positron's Blast - Damage/Recharge
- (11) Positron's Blast - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
- (11) Positron's Blast - Chance of Damage(Energy)
- (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance
- (23) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance/Recharge
- (29) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
- (29) Luck of the Gambler - Defense
- (A) Positron's Blast - Accuracy/Damage
- (13) Positron's Blast - Damage/Endurance
- (13) Positron's Blast - Damage/Recharge
- (15) Positron's Blast - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
- (15) Positron's Blast - Chance of Damage(Energy)
- (A) Touch of Death - Accuracy/Damage
- (17) Touch of Death - Damage/Endurance
- (23) Touch of Death - Damage/Recharge
- (25) Touch of Death - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
- (36) Touch of Death - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (37) Touch of Death - Chance of Damage(Negative)
- (A) Endurance Reduction IO
- (A) Positron's Blast - Accuracy/Damage
- (19) Positron's Blast - Damage/Endurance
- (19) Positron's Blast - Damage/Recharge
- (21) Positron's Blast - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
- (21) Positron's Blast - Chance of Damage(Energy)
- (A) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff
- (37) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Recharge
- (40) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Recharge/Endurance
- (42) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - Recharge/Endurance
- (42) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Endurance
- (42) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - Chance for Build Up
- (A) Run Speed IO
- (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance
- (27) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
- (48) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance/Recharge
- (A) Endurance Reduction IO
- (A) Shield Breaker - Defense Debuff
- (31) Shield Breaker - Accuracy/Defense Debuff
- (33) Shield Breaker - Accuracy/Recharge
- (33) Shield Breaker - Defense Debuff/Endurance/Recharge
- (33) Shield Breaker - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge
- (34) Shield Breaker - Chance for Lethal Damage
- (A) Red Fortune - Defense/Endurance
- (31) Red Fortune - Defense/Endurance/Recharge
- (31) Red Fortune - Defense
- (48) Red Fortune - Endurance
- (50) Red Fortune - Defense/Recharge
- (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
- (A) Lockdown - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge/Hold
- (43) Lockdown - Accuracy/Recharge
- (43) Lockdown - Accuracy/Hold
- (43) Lockdown - Endurance/Recharge/Hold
- (46) Lockdown - Chance for +2 Mag Hold
- (50) Lockdown - Recharge/Hold
- (A) Call to Arms - Accuracy/Recharge
- (39) Call to Arms - Damage/Endurance
- (39) Call to Arms - Accuracy/Damage
- (39) Call to Arms - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (40) Call to Arms - Endurance/Damage/Recharge
- (40) Call to Arms - Defense Bonus Aura for Pets
- (A) Accuracy IO
- (A) Touch of Death - Accuracy/Damage
- (45) Touch of Death - Damage/Endurance
- (45) Touch of Death - Damage/Recharge
- (45) Touch of Death - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
- (46) Touch of Death - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (46) Touch of Death - Chance of Damage(Negative)
- (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance
- (48) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
- (A) Recharge Reduction IO
- (50) Recharge Reduction IO
Level 1: Brawl
- (A) Empty
Level 1: Sprint
- (A) Endurance Reduction IO
- (A) Empty
Level 2: Swift
- (A) Run Speed IO
- (A) Numina's Convalescence - Heal
- (37) Numina's Convalescence - +Regeneration/+Recovery
- (A) Jumping IO
- (A) Endurance Modification IO
- (3) Endurance Modification IO
"Thank you Iraq! Goodnight!"
One more thing this build takes advantage of shooting the webs from range centered on the boss or EB, then jumping in for Shatter, the mins and lts went into range mode, are now immobilized and switching to melee when you clock their boss or EB with Shatter. (They still have likely not attacked you, they cannot make up their mind how they want to do it.) You jump back out to start the AOE's and range with Venom, and then they are switching back to their ranged attack. Hah, jump back in after the AOE's and Bayonet the hard target, they might even reset again if they are still alive. So reseting the mobs by jumping back and forth limits the attacks, combined with the recharge slow of the webs limiting their attack rate, plus you are hard to hit anyway: Who needs the more sturdy damage resistence of the Crab? I also like my Crab mind you; yet I just like the Huntsman even more. The play style for me is more up tempo and dynamic.
"Thank you Iraq! Goodnight!"
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Just wanted to say nice build; gave me some ideas to think about.
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Originally Posted by Aggroman
One more thing this build takes advantage of shooting the webs from range centered on the boss or EB, then jumping in for Shatter, the mins and lts went into range mode, are now immobilized and switching to melee when you clock their boss or EB with Shatter. (They still have likely not attacked you, they cannot make up their mind how they want to do it.) You jump back out to start the AOE's and range with Venom, and then they are switching back to their ranged attack. Hah, jump back in after the AOE's and Bayonet the hard target, they might even reset again if they are still alive. So reseting the mobs by jumping back and forth limits the attacks, combined with the recharge slow of the webs limiting their attack rate, plus you are hard to hit anyway: Who needs the more sturdy damage resistence of the Crab? I also like my Crab mind you; yet I just like the Huntsman even more. The play style for me is more up tempo and dynamic.
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"when a stalker goes blue side, assassination strike should be renamed "bunny hugs", and a rainbow should fly out" -Harbinger-
Thanks. Build for fun, for your play style.
"Thank you Iraq! Goodnight!"
I think the greatest power that makes soldiers better than the normal archetype is Mental Training. This attack rate and movement rate quickening alone makes my method work: from Surveillance to aoe immobilize, to ranged single target hold (both recharge slows) move to melee (I hover with combat jump on to get my last bit of def cap, and still close this distance fast) to BU and Shatter, and back out to range to Venom Grenade and other AOE's, before many critters AI has done much. (Note: my build says run speed io in Mental but on server I changed it to a flight speed.) I am cloaked and just at range and easily close distance in hover to use bu/shatter on the hard target after launching surveillance, web envelope, web coccoon.
What I get after Venom Nade, Heavy Burst, and Frag is minions and lts pretty much dead and the hard target is getting pounded with my single target range.
Hasten was just bonus recharge I picked up at 49, by the respec at 47 I already had enough recharge for my play syle to be effective. Hasten is just bonus fast on your single targets.
It is good for just cycling through the resist and def debuffs and the single target attacks range and melee on a hard target like an AV. I use Venom Grenade on single hard target also with shatter and surveillance, and the minus resist procs in the single range, lots of stacked minus resist and def. You get an AV that actually feels your bullets, your bayonet, and your mace, and he is not happy with you and he is also hating your two pets. Good fun fights.
"Thank you Iraq! Goodnight!"
Like I said, I am not surprised that Bane has less dps because he does the most resistance debuffs of all. If Bane has the highest dps while debuffing the most, then there is a problem.
Technically I can get another 20% resistance debuff from AH Proc in both Soldier rifle attacks but I hate to redraw. I am pretty happy with just surveillance, venom and shatter armor.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.