Impossible Suggestion, but eh...

....one problem defenders have is that they're very spread out in ability and they overlap a lot with controllers.

Scrappers and Tankers had similar if more pronounced problems.

I've had this conversation a couple of times with my brothers...

Controllers should have been Control/Buff while Defenders should have been Debuff/Ranged

Dark and Rad should have been the model for the Defender primaries

Emp and FF should have been the model for the Controller secondaries


Some buff is fine, Dark has some buffing in the form of Shadowfall as well as some healing (though it's heal is primarily useful as debuff). Rad has lots of buff and debuff.

What REALLY kills the weaker Defender sets is the "can't target self" stuff. That's FINE for a secondary set, and Empathy and Force Field are awesome for Controllers...but boring for Defenders...

For example, for a more active primary set that got rid of or minimized "can't target self" stuff, leave the single target heal, replace the Absorb Pain with a heavy single target debuff (call it making the enemy feel sympathy for your side). Replace one of the uber-buffs with an AM-like aura buff (therefore usable by the player) and the other a toggle-poison debuff. Empathy has lots open for using it as a debuff such as paralyzing an enemy with sorrow to reduce their damage out put or speed. Leaving in Resurrect and Heal Other still makes it more team-oriented in specific, but it is now fairly useful solo

Leave the controller version as it is

Likewise FF, change the bubbles into quick recharge enemy debuffs, maybe 1 minute-2 minute durations. Keep the "I don't want to play right now" power (PDS) and the group bubbles, keep the repulsion field and the force blast and the egg, all those are usable solo, but make the two bubbles into either ST debuffs or toggle debuffs

Leave the controller version as it is

Also, a Defender with Empathy and Force Field is stuck with mediocre offenses because they're being buffed but the enemies are not being debuffed. Dark defenders would do about 30% more damage than other defenders due to Tar Pit, Rad defenders about 55% more damage due to AM and Enervation, as Rad well as hitting about 30% more often due to RI (before enhancement).

Dark, Rad, Kin and other damage-boosters are the reason that defender offenses stay mediocre, because those sets make the mediocre offenses more effective and tolerable. If the defender had much better offenses, then those sets would be verging on overpowered...as a result the more "can't target self" oriented sets are limited to the mediocre offenses that are at the level they are to prevent the more debuff oriented sets from being overbalanced.

by raising the other defender sets to be more debuff oriented, the offenses become at the very least tolerable...also, it more unifies the AT so that a better inherent can be had than the current vigilance

Not impossible, just very highly improbable.

They are never going to do that massive of an overhaul of how that many entire powersets work.

That doesn't just break the Cottage Rule, it annihilates it and then incinerates the pieces of it.

Another problem is that this suggestion seems to involve splitting a lot of the buff/debuff sets into two seperate powersets.

I dunno. I just don't really see a problem being addressed by this, personally. Defenders are my favorite archetype as-is, although I will freely admit that I only ever solo on a few of them.

I like the Emp as is. No your not going to do gobbs of damage, or be able to solo very effectively, but if you want to do those things, then why would you play an Emp? I have one friend that wants to play an Emp/Kin. Some people REALLY WANT to play support toons. I enjoy it on occasion hence I have a couple Emp's in my pluthora of alts. True some power sets are more suitable to soloing, but most people choose to play those sets because they like them (either the solo friendly or not solo friendly) Just because a set can't tackle +4 mobs solo doesn't mean the set isn't working correctly. Defenders are designed for team play/support. Yes, they seriously lack personal fire power, but to me it's not always about personal fire power. (though I wouldn't mind seeing aborb pain switched with a debuff).

Actually, Having had similar discussions about ATs with my guildmates, I have a completely different way of seeing this breakdown.

First of all, Controllers being Control/Buff is counter-intuitive. Controls are quite active and enemy targeted, and buffs are much more active than debuffs and are Ally-oriented.
This setup would make controllers ridiculously hard to play for a new player. Think of combinations like Mind-Kinetics, or Fire-Thermal. The best "vision" of a Controller so far is the Dominator. Anyone that has tried to solo a controller pre-containment knows exactly what I mean.

Buff versus Debuff is a very good division "Thematically", but one which I would have preferred as the distinction between Defenders and Corruptors. Defenders would have made a lot of sense as the "buffing" AT while Corruptors thematically fit the role of de-buffers very well.

The real reason that we cannot have these improvements in "thematical" roles is that the game originally came along with only 5 choices, and from what I understand, there were originally only 4. Controllers were added last of the original 5. Presumably because Blasters with Ranged primary and Debuff/Control secondary were too powerful.

My hopes will rest on COH2 with regards to improving the "thematics" and "effectiveness" of buffing ATs such that they become viable in more aspects of the game. Truth be told, I have many, many ideas regarding this and would be really excited to see Paragon devote resources to making a new game. This game has a lot of long-time veterans that would really enjoy the "newness" of a re-designed game to jump into.

No. Just... no.

I mean, *aside* from thoroughly thrashing the cottage rule and nuking builds that are half a decade or more old that people *enjoy* playing, why should my Controllers (under your split) be prevented from DEbuffing the enemy, when that would make their holds more effective?

And what's wrong (other than "I don't like it") with having some sets more team focused, and others a bit stronger solo? Not a thing.

Just as an aside, historically Defenders have been seen by the devs as "just right" overall.

See my Guides and Tutorials

You can take my empath/psi defender when...
Actually, no. No you can't. T'hell with that, frankly. Controllers control. Defenders buff/debuff. Just because controllers happen to do other stuff too? So? Defenders do it better. Is it really such a crime that, hey, get this, not EVERY AT is going to be great solo?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

indeed, now that it's already out, it not a viable change, hence the title.

as to the control/buff and defend/ranged set up, the intent is that most of the buff be pre-combat active rather than during combat...yes, this requires paying some attention to your allies, but I generally find plenty of time between fights to relay buffs and most last longer than most fights we have....

that's the problem with "can't target self" heavy primaries...you basically buff all your buddies and then sit in a corner (at least judging by the complaints I hear from most of the people I know that play emp/- or ff/-...well, to be accurate the emps tend to complain there's nothing for them to do unless something unusual happens) while the rest of the team does stuff

however, you are right, too many people out there like the sets they do have...again, hence the title....

however, it would be nice if future defender primary and controller secondary sets were designed with this in mind

controllers have an active aspect already and thus pre-combat buffs are ideal secondaries for them

defenders primaries should be active in combat and not pre-combat buff heavy

as it stands, the only time defenders with pre-combat buffs as a heavy part of their set are active effectively (their ranged not being all that effective) is when the team goes to the continuous charge strategy when you're moving from group to group without preparation...and that's about once or twice a week for the space of a hall way...rarely more than that...sometimes we can go a month without calling continuous charge

"...you basically buff all your buddies and then sit in a corner "

So the people you play with don't heal or use their primary or secondary sets at all? The three emp powers I use the most are heal target, heal spam, and clear mind. (my emps are mostly ice or dark) so I try to target bosses with either holds/debuffs while healing Melee / other defs / trollers / blasters (yes in that order)... in the meantime making sure the other squishes have a clear mind or two on them and telling them that Ra is going off (genearlly in near the melee croud) - it involves paying a little attention to your allies, where you are in relation to them, their health bars and icons next to the bars.

"the intent is that most of the buff be pre-combat active rather than during combat...yes, this requires paying some attention to your allies"

Playing a support role requires a LOT of paying attetion to your allies, if someone doesn't want to pay attention to their allies - because they are to busy sitting in the corner - maybe they should try a Blaster instead of a Defender?